GrinderTheTroll
Aug 25 2004, 06:13 PM
Someone asked the question in this thread
http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=5047 about about how much continuous fire untill you damage a weapon barrell.
I thought this recent clip about the new XM8 Assault Rifle to replaces the M-16 was interesting:
Observations include:
• It's more versatile than the old M-16 rifle it will replace and should fire thousands of rounds before jamming, rather than the few hundred shots before the M-16 typically jams.
• It's much easier to clean and maintain.
• Training time is reduced since it's a single weapon that can be modified to fire short distances, long distances, launch grenades, etc.
• It should last longer, with barrels able to fire 15,000 rounds before being replaced rather than the 6,000 to 9,000 rounds it takes to wear out an M-16 barrel. Developers are trying to push the XM8 barrels to 20,000 rounds before replacement.
The XM8 will cost more to make initially, but should settle into a full-rate production cost of $600 to $700 a copy. That compares to $500 for the M-16 and $950 for the M4 carbine.
Source:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/...3/mn/mn01a.html
Necro Tech
Aug 25 2004, 07:23 PM
Please tell me thats not the actual picture of the weapon. Please. It looks like its made by Fisher Price. Baby's first assault rifle.
PBTHHHHT
Aug 25 2004, 07:29 PM
Oh geez, you're right.
Maybe it's to make it look less intimidating to the local population in urban environments...
Cray74
Aug 25 2004, 07:47 PM
QUOTE (Necro Tech) |
Please tell me thats not the actual picture of the weapon. Please. It looks like its made by Fisher Price. Baby's first assault rifle. |
I kinda liked it.
BitBasher
Aug 25 2004, 07:50 PM
Their design department has been watching too much deep space 9.
FlakJacket
Aug 25 2004, 08:01 PM
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll) |
Observations include:
[SNIP H&K SALES PITCH] |
Heckler & Koch hired you on as a corporate shill or something?
Eyeless Blond
Aug 25 2004, 08:13 PM
Actually that's a direct quote from the article, so I guess *they're* the corporate shills
Still, that can't possibly be the actual gun. Who would go into combat with a multicolored assault rifle that looks like it was made of plastic? It's got to be some kind of prototype.
Lindt
Aug 25 2004, 08:14 PM
And here I thought the IOCW looked silly, this thing looks like its cheep plastic! Dammit, an assault rifle is supposed to be SCARY, it shoots things. Nice to know what my tax dollers are going to...
Nath
Aug 25 2004, 08:19 PM
I think the final version will be in the black & gray livery -
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm
Luke Hardison
Aug 25 2004, 08:20 PM
QUOTE (Lindt) |
Nice to know what my tax dollers are going to... |
Damn dangling participles! It's 'Nice to know where my tax dollars are going' or "Nice to know to what my tax dollars are going'
That said, this weapon is under development by H&K to sell to the government. None of your tax dollars are spent on it ... yet.
Nath
Aug 25 2004, 08:23 PM
QUOTE (Luke Hardison) |
That said, this weapon is under development by H&K to sell to the government. None of your tax dollars are spent on it ... yet. |
QUOTE (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m8-oicw.htm) |
In October 2002 ATK (Alliant Techsystems) was awarded a $5 million contract modification from the U.S. Army Armament Research, Development, and Engineering Center (ARDEC), Picatinny, N.J., to develop the new XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle. |
Herald of Verjigorm
Aug 25 2004, 08:25 PM
A target that is too busy laughing to shoot back is a target that is easily killed.
Not the kind of victory you want made into a movie, but still victory.
Arethusa
Aug 25 2004, 08:43 PM
If you watched the prototype firing videos released a while ago, the gun was simply plain black. The strange colors are either variations on environmental patterns (eg the brown and tan furniture possibly for desert deployment) or prototype coloring. No silly XM8 logo on the real thing, either. Past that, it's not exactly the best looking rifle I've ever seen and I do see the DS9 resemblance, but it's not quite that bad. Certainly not the hilarious looking ockup that once was the OICW.
Backgammon
Aug 25 2004, 08:48 PM
Maybe the design is part of the "Look, killing people is just like a video game!" mentality they're going for nowadays with grunts.
TheScamp
Aug 25 2004, 08:50 PM
QUOTE |
Their design department has been watching too much deep space 9. |
That, or they played too much
Lazer Tag back in the 80's.
KillaJ
Aug 25 2004, 09:16 PM
The sad part is that HK had originally planned a more angular, traditional look for the weapon, but the army actually requested this monstrosity. The old design was "too European", whatever the hell that means.
Siege
Aug 25 2004, 09:19 PM
It may be an ugly rifle, but if it can deliver everything it's promising, I won't complain overmuch.
-Siege
Nath
Aug 25 2004, 09:23 PM
QUOTE (Siege) |
...if it can deliver everything it's promising... |
Bullets ?
RangerJoe
Aug 25 2004, 09:30 PM
QUOTE |
Please tell me thats not the actual picture of the weapon. Please. It looks like its made by Fisher Price. Baby's first assault rifle. |
It has a lot of the same design curves as the Fisher-Price cassette deck I had as a kid. Really, it reminds me of a Speak-and-Spell:
"Spell rata-tat-tat!"
RATATAT-TAT!
Luke Hardison
Aug 25 2004, 09:30 PM
QUOTE (TheScamp) |
QUOTE | Their design department has been watching too much deep space 9. |
That, or they played too much Lazer Tag back in the 80's. |
Oh, MAN, I miss the old Lazer Tag! Anyone remember the cartoon?
GrinderTheTroll
Aug 25 2004, 09:56 PM
QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll @ Aug 25 2004, 06:13 PM) | Observations include:
[SNIP H&K SALES PITCH] |
Heckler & Koch hired you on as a corporate shill or something? |
I, for one, welcome our new assualt rifle overloads!
FXcalibur
Aug 25 2004, 10:16 PM
So what happens to the OICW? Totally scrapped or reserved for special forces or whatever?
hobgoblin
Aug 25 2004, 10:27 PM
QUOTE (KillaJ @ Aug 25 2004, 11:16 PM) |
The sad part is that HK had originally planned a more angular, traditional look for the weapon, but the army actually requested this monstrosity. The old design was "too European", whatever the hell that means. |
given the looks of the rifle and given that its HK that have made it i would say its a redesigned G36...
*edit*
figures, reading the world.guns.ru page (nice page that btw) its stated thats its a derivative of the G36. most likley its useing most of the same internal systems that the G36 does but with a redesigned exterior. atleast that would make most economic sense for HK. and why the fuck must the us military have its own design on that rifle? cant they just use the base G36?
*edit*
as for the oicw, i think it was just a experiment into next gen grunt weapon systems rather then a production design...
*edit*
err, again im talking before im reading. seems that the xm8 will be a steppingstone up to the xm29 OICW. atleast if the page linked to by nath can be trusted to have updated info...
*edit*
Cray74
Aug 25 2004, 10:43 PM
QUOTE (FXcalibur) |
So what happens to the OICW? Totally scrapped or reserved for special forces or whatever? |
It was an unweildy, heavy beast of a weapon that tried to be a multi-round grenade launcher and assault rifle at the same time.
The XM8 streamlined things down to the assault rifle to replace the M16/M4. The grenade launcher would go to a single soldier in the squad, IIRC.
hobgoblin
Aug 25 2004, 10:48 PM
or just go underbarrel & singel shot just like what you have on the current m4/m16. from what i understand the forgrip is removeable to reveal attatchment points for stuff like that...
Cray74
Aug 25 2004, 10:52 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
or just go underbarrel & singel shot just like what you have on the current m4/m16. from what i understand the forgrip is removeable to reveal attatchment points for stuff like that... |
Note that the grenade launcher of the OICW was so large that the assault rifle was the underslung item.
hobgoblin
Aug 25 2004, 10:56 PM
i know, and its had the magazine for the grenades in the stock fo the rifle itself.
i read your line about issueing the launcher to a single grunt or squad as issueing as a seperate weapon, i guess i read it wrongly...
FlakJacket
Aug 25 2004, 11:49 PM
On the design front, isn't this basically what people said when the first M-16's came out- that it looked too much like it should have Mattel stamped on it?
Cray74
Aug 25 2004, 11:52 PM
QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
On the design front, isn't this basically what people said when the first M-16's came out- that it looked too much like it should have Mattel stamped on it? |
Heh...I just read the M16 called the "Mighty Mattel" in a novel, "Isle in the Sea of Time," by SM Stirling.
BGMFH
Aug 26 2004, 12:17 AM
SOme of the early M-16s did have Mattel stamped on them...
not kidding, look it up.
Arethusa
Aug 26 2004, 12:45 AM
Just to clarify, the OICW, eventually designated XM29, never made it out of the experimental stage. It was a bulky, useless cumbersome grenade launcher strapped on top of a short carbine. But here's the problem: the advantage of a short carbine is maneuverability— for which it must sacrifice range, stopping power, penetration, fragmentation, accuracy, etc. When you tie 10 fucking pounds of grenade launcher on top, you've pretty much wasted your time. This, of course, occurred to no one on the project, which happily spent loads of money trying to make the thing work.
Needless to say, it didn't, but the 20mm platform and airburst capable grenade launcher was, at least in the eyes of the military, viable. The weapon was split in two, and the short carbine, which was based on the G36, was used as the basis of the XM8 series. The grenade launcher is the XM25, and is essentially the grenade launcher of the OICW/XM29 ripped off and turned into a standalone weapon, carried in somewhat similar fashion to the M79 of old(e).
Do not, however, think that this means 40mm is out. There are still 40mm attachments for the XM8 series (not using the current RIS standard; there is a specific quick attach system for the XM8 which is supposedly superior and can be adapted to current rails if need be), and they will likely be carried in squads in addition to the presence of a dedicated grenadier.
And that's about enough of that.
mfb
Aug 26 2004, 12:57 AM
not to mention the Mk-19 automatic grenade launcher--more fun than a burning nunnery!
Arethusa
Aug 26 2004, 01:13 AM
Well, the Mk19 is a different brand of 40mm altogether from what people generally know from the M79 and M203 type stuff.
But hey, fun is fun— and everbody knows fun rules.
mfb
Aug 26 2004, 01:24 AM
bah, don't you read your SR? they're both grenade launchers, ergo they both use the same ammo !!
hobgoblin
Aug 26 2004, 01:56 AM
now who the hell needs a grenade launcher that can do fully automatic fire? if you need to reduce a area to is component molecules then you call those nice people in the rocket silos, thats what they are there for
but i guess the military never knew what the word overkill meant
Arethusa
Aug 26 2004, 02:23 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
bah, don't you read your SR? they're both grenade launchers, ergo they both use the same ammo !! |
My brain is upside down!
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
now who the hell needs a grenade launcher that can do fully automatic fire? if you need to reduce a area to is component molecules then you call those nice people in the rocket silos, thats what they are there for
but i guess the military never knew what the word overkill meant |
That's not an uncommon reaction to the Mk19, but in reality, when your back's against the wall, the Mk19 really does prove itself in terms of heavy suppression and support. The full auto isn't there to hose so much as provide quick follow up and allow multiple targets to be engaged effectively— and when things go wrong, I don't think I'd complain.
Crusher Bob
Aug 26 2004, 02:32 AM
The Mk19 has a bit more oomph that a M2 but you can still mount it on light vehicles. The next step up is really light cannon, but you need a much heavier platform for that. You can stick a Mk19 on top of a Humvee and get fire support out to about 1 mile
mfb
Aug 26 2004, 02:42 AM
overkill is the word of the day when the bad guys come at you in waves. it's also handy to be able to arc your fire over an obstruction.
mmu1
Aug 26 2004, 03:04 AM
I think it'd look allright in black if they just did something about that stupid stock that really does look like something belonging on a plastic Star Trek prop...
Of course, why they couldn't just use the damn G36 and rename it is beyond me. Abyone with a clue knows it's a slightly re-designed G36 anyway, and everyone else will never know or care.
Arethusa
Aug 26 2004, 03:31 AM
The XM8 is not a G36. It is a development of the adapted short carbine portion of the OICW/XM29, which was itself an adaptation of the G36. They are related, but they are not the same gun.
Bossemanden
Aug 26 2004, 04:15 AM
"• It's more versatile than the old M-16 rifle it will replace and should fire thousands of rounds before jamming, rather than the few hundred shots before the M-16 typically jams."
This could mean two different things:
1) The XM8 should be able to fire several thousand rounds continuously before jamming.
2) Each shot fired has a 1/"several thousands" chance of causing a jam.
Siege
Aug 26 2004, 04:39 AM
mfb
Aug 26 2004, 04:46 AM
or, it could mean the XM-8 can fire can fire several thousand rounds sporadically--eg, normal use--before jamming.
Bossemanden
Aug 26 2004, 04:49 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
or, it could mean the XM-8 can fire can fire several thousand rounds sporadically--eg, normal use--before jamming. |
Essentially what I was trying to say with 2)
Clyde
Aug 26 2004, 04:59 AM
The main change with the XM-8's operating system is a gas piston to operate the bolt, rather than blowing propellant gas straight through the tube and running the bolt with that like on the M-16. That keeps it from spewing carbon deposits all over the workings of the gun the way the M-16 does, which accounts for your improvement in reliability. Of course, that means that Heckler & Koch have just invented the AR-18 . . .
MYST1C
Aug 26 2004, 09:02 AM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
and why the fuck must the us military have its own design on that rifle? cant they just use the base G36?
|
You actually expect the mighty US Army (self-proclaimed "world's premier fighting force") to adopt a weapon other countries already use?
The US Army doesn't follow, instead it takes the lead (even if that means giving an existing weapon a new look and name and manufacturing it in the US so it can be called an American gun).
He who finds sarcasm in my post may keep it, print it and put it on his wall.
mfb
Aug 26 2004, 09:30 AM
...right. it couldn't be an attempt to create a more advanced fighting force. the XM-8 might not be a stupendously badass leap in technology, but how about the XM-312--a fifty-cal machine gun that weighs, as i recall, only a hundred pounds with tripod. the US Army is attempting to undergo a massive shift in the next 10-20 years, changing out pretty much everything they use. so, no. they're not interested in what everyone else is using now--they want what everyone else will want to be using in twenty years.
Austere Emancipator
Aug 26 2004, 11:36 AM
QUOTE (Clyde) |
The main change with the XM-8's operating system is a gas piston to operate the bolt, rather than blowing propellant gas straight through the tube and running the bolt with that like on the M-16. That keeps it from spewing carbon deposits all over the workings of the gun the way the M-16 does, which accounts for your improvement in reliability. Of course, that means that Heckler & Koch have just invented the AR-18 . . . |
As far as gas pistons go, the AK-47 is operated by one. However, several people do seem to believe that the designers of the G36 might have taken a good look at AR-18s when designing the internals. Regardless, saying that the G36 (or the XM8) is simply a re-invented AR-18 would be like saying that all ultra-modern sniper rifles that have a Mauser turn-bolt are re-invented Mauser G98s.
Ed_209a
Aug 26 2004, 04:12 PM
One downside to the Mk-19 is the long standoff range. The fuze won't function til it goes 20-30m, and it's a not a great idea to shoot anything inside 75m or so.
I have also heard reports that they can be unreliable once mother nature gets inside it.
Mechanically though, it's pretty cool. Ya gotta respect a weapon with a bolt that weighs more than most assault rifles.
hobgoblin
Aug 26 2004, 05:21 PM
was not HK mixed into with the OICW project? whats stopping them from useing what they have learned in the G36 and then when the us military comes talking they take some of the internal design of the G36 and stuff it into the XM8?
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