The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns... Options

[FrostyNSO]

I just got SOTA:2063 a week or two ago and just loved the mercenaries section. I was also very happy to see some new heavy hitters in the vehicle department, but one thing bothered me and I'm sure it has been discussed before but:

The Leopard III tank has an armor rating of 40!
When I saw this, the first thing I did was to grab Rigger 3 and check out the AV weapons. The biggest non-naval weapon I could find was 20D (AV). Still just not quite enough to dent this puppy. Now, lets say one of my characters gets ahold of one of these (not gonna happen, but we'll say he does). How do I kill him without calling in the USS Missouri?

They may as well just give the thing a Hull and Bulwark rating and make it easy on us, instead of having to convert naval to normal damage to kill it.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

I hear IEDs are good at disabling them.

[Kagetenshi]

It's a main battle tank. If someone gets ahold of one, they will be calling in the USS Missouri.

Edit: that being said, the FAQ says you can call a shot…

~J

[shadow_scholar]

While I don't have the SOTA 2063, and I'm not fully versed on vehicle rules, my first thoughts are that a vehicle is going to be somewhat vulnerable underneath. While a good mine or even a well made bomb may not take it out, it will probably at least make it non-movable. Then you've just got to crack that tin can. No matter how tough that vehicle is, though, the weakest link is always going to be the pilot and/or occupants. A powerful area effect spell could take care of that. Or, if it is a drone being controlled by a rigger, scramble the communication signal, or even worse, crack the signal and take control of it. There are plenty of ways to defeat something without having to use pure strength.

[sidartha]

Providing the Leopard is being shot with AV ammunition it still has to roll its body against damage and sucsesses.
A heavy pistol loaded with AV ammo fired by a smart-linked pistol adapt(skill 12) using all available combat pool(6) at point blank range will generate 15 sucsesses at light damage for the tank to stage down at a TN of 1.
Then the adapt gets a second shot.

Point being, it's not that hard to kill a vehicle with the proper weapons.

[Nath]

There are actually weapons with naval damage code which are not limited to naval vessels. The railgun in Rigger 3 are also used as standard armament on Main Battle Tanks (a 15MN heavy railgun on Leopard III, a 8MN medium one on Keiler A4).

[BitBasher]

[The Grifter]

[BitBasher]

It's okay Grifter, he is wrong, the attack bounces. The armor is hardened. ;)

[hobgoblin]

and thats compareable to real life. if you want to reliably take out a tank, you call in a tank of your own.

and the mine under the tank may work in rl, but in sr armor covers everything, includeing threads and turret, equaly well (want to stop a rl tank, aim for turret or threads).

that is unless there is something in the advances rigger3 rules. i cant say i have read em...

[The Grifter]

Mines under the tank might take out the treads and provide a mobility kill, but not a total kill. Armor is way too tough for that.

[hobgoblin]

but is sr it will either kill the tank outright or not affect its mobility at all...

[The Grifter]

Boo, I say.

[BitBasher]

[The Grifter]

Awesome. If you're not safe in a tank, where CAN you be safe?

[FrostyNSO]

What is the minimum naval damage that will drop it? (No books at work...)

[toturi]

Just Call Shot to bypass armour. Like Kage said... Armour? What armour?

[RunnerPaul]

It's ok. Just wait for SotA:2065, and perhaps they'll introduce an adept power that lets Killing Hands treat hardened armor as regular armor, and then someone will build a Troll who can punch the tank to death.
:silly:

[Kagetenshi]

[shadow_scholar]

[grendel]

Barret 121 fires an APDS round that does 14D. It is not treated as AV.

RPGs will not penetrate the armor on a modern MBT, which is designed to defeat shaped charge warheads on anti-tank missiles as well as kinetic penetrators fired from other tanks. As others have stated, though, tank treads remain vulnerable to man-portable weapons systems. This will grant you a mobility kill, but will in no way eliminate the tank as a threat to your forces.

[The Grifter]

[FrostyNSO]

*nevermind

[Da9iel]

How big would a mine be to achieve a successful chunky salsa effect? Figure from ½ to 1 meter between the ground and the underside of the tank. Are there any large enough?

[The Grifter]

An AV mine. Or a bouncing Betty, although those are primarily anti-personell mines.

[grendel]

Check this out for data on current US anti-tank mines.

[Dancer]

When browsing through the archives I saw some stats for a custom vehicle that had two mechanical arms fitted with dikoted cyberspurs - enough power to open a Leopard up like a tin can.

From a 'realism' perspective it's very weird if a tank is cimpletely immune to it's own main gun. Land battles must be very boring in 2064.

There's the old trick of ordering a spirit/elemental to materialise inside a vehicle and kill the crew. But any modern military vehicle should have nice, thick permanent wards.

[Rev]

[Cochise]

[FrostyNSO]

Anybody care to post the naval to normal damage conversion formula?

[FlakJacket]

[Kagetenshi]

8MN translates to 24 (AV) MN, which means that it needs to be staged down three times to reach S. Incidentally, against normal targets it is treated as a splash weapon with -3/meter power reduction. The big one is 45 (AV) MN.

Yeah, that'll do the trick.

~J

[Crimson Jack]

How to Break Into a Moving Tank 101:

a) Turn on stealth mode.
b) Run up to the tank.
c) Hit the X button to board said tank.
d) Hit the B button to whack the hatch open.
e) Hit the R trigger button to drop a plasma grenade inside.
f) Laugh.

Courtesy of Halo 2 :grinbig:

[kevyn668]

[FrostyNSO]

Hell, if your gonna armor a tank, go ahead and lace it with FAB too :rotfl:

[Crimson Jack]

Are these things all grounded so that electrical secondary effects won't hurt them? If not, elemental spell. Zark!

[James McMurray]

An elemental spell would have to be force 41 to affect a vehicle with 40 armor. I'd hate to have to soak that drain! :)

[Crimson Jack]

Is that the way it works with the secondary effects as well though? I don't remember. I wasn't talking about primary damage.

[Tarantula]

With vehicles, the primary damage has to affect it for secondary to affect it. And, anyone using this sort of tank, is going to have at least one, if not multiple riggers controlling it (One driving, one or 5 gunning).

[James McMurray]

Yep. If the spell's force does not exceed the vehicle's armor rating it has no effect. Check the vehicle section under "Elemental Manipulation Spells".

[James McMurray]

I would also invest in a ward for the thing, to prevent astral magicians and spirits from entering. Heck, almost any armored vehicle fielded should have at least a small ward around it to give the passengers a bit of warning and protection against elementals materializing inside.

[Kanada Ten]

[Dancer]

[Crimson Jack]

[hobgoblin]

wards and fab will not stop a spirit if it comes directly from its metaplane iirc.
the question then becomes, how far away does the magican have to be...

[Kagetenshi]

Three Force 6 Elementals cost 24,000 at market price, and can IIRC guard a location for a year and a day.

~J

[James McMurray]

That's one way to go, but remember that it makes everyone on the planet a killable target for anyone capable of summoning an elemental. I prefer to take the stance that wards stop astral intruders, whether they step through a metaplane or not.

[hobgoblin]

that depends, if your going after a high initiate mage i would not send a elemental as he would probably banish it into oblivion...

allso, you can fill the inside of the tank with fab-3. harmless to normal humans, lethal to any astral or dual entity...

[Kanada Ten]

[Crimson Jack]

[James McMurray]

IMO they shouldn't have anything that can stop that kind of juggernaut. Either wards stop elementals coming from metaplanes, or the tank itself has several gaurdian elementals waiting in astral space to beat up any elemental that appears.

There should be some things on the planet that no shadowrunner can take out with mere firepower alone. Scary ass tanks from the year 2064 should be in that category.

[hobgoblin]

one tank they may be able to stop, but good lock stoping a whole formation :P

even more so properly backed up by air, magic and artillery...

sometimes a problem is so big you need the army to solve it:silly:

[shadow_scholar]

A strong magician can crack a ward. As for the FabIII, wouldn't a...man I can't forget the actual spell name...Sterilize, maybe? But it basically sterilizes all living trace matters in an area, to head off any DNA evidence left, wouldn't that possibly also effect the FABIII, which is a bacteria? A magical one, but a bacteria nonetheless, would it then come down to straight power of the FABIII vs. the force of the spell? I don't have the rules for FABIII handy.

[Crimson Jack]

[Foreigner]

How about trying a called shot with a Panther Assault Cannon loaded with HE ammunition?

Fired straight up the bore of the main gun, that is.

The idea, of course, is to detonate the shell loaded into the gun.

Difficult, but not impossible.

During the American Civil War, several of U.S. Army COL. Hiram Berdan's Sharpshooters blew up a muzzle-loading Confederate cannon by firing at the sand bags placed around its muzzle. After fifteen or so hits on the sand bags (for some reason, the Confederate artillerymen didn't realize what Berdan's men were up to), the cannon blew up, taking most of the crew with it when the powder bags were ignited by hot shrapnel.

Of course, there's another option:

An old military axiom tells us that:

The BEST defense against a tank is ANOTHER tank.

;)

--Foreigner

[hobgoblin]

i think sterilize is listed as a way to remove them yes. but to cast that inside a tank you would need to get a nice view of its insides...

[Crimson Jack]

[shadow_scholar]

[Kanada Ten]

Sterilize is a physical spell, though manaball would work. I highly doubt the military would use FAB3 in an uncontrolled environment. It's just dumb. Sure, a mage or elemental can fight the ward, but that takes time and alerts the crew to an astral attack: "Roger Delta 1, you have astral boogie. Authorized use of mage bomb, over." At which point the gunner reaches over and pulls the yellow level that casts an astral touch version of manabolt, nuking every astral entity touching the tank.

Even if you recreated X-Ray Vision, by the rules (even of second edition, Awakenings was wrong), one cannot use magic to enhance LOS.

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Feb 9 2005, 02:36 AM

[James McMurray]

[BitBasher]

I'll say it. I don't think there's any possible way any players in any of my games could hurt the damn tank.

This is because they would have to be freaking stupid and suicidal to face a tank in the first palce. Want to survive an encounter with an MBT? Avoid it!

The PC's should absolutely not be able to accomplish anything no matter how silly just by the virtue that they are PC's.

[FrostyNSO]

What about ordering a high-powered earth elemental to open up a trench underneath it? Is that intelligent enough or even possible?

I am way rusty on elementals and stuff. That last time one of my players used a spirit it was the 90's.

[Kanada Ten]

Earth Elementals don't have the Shape Earth power last I checked, but it could dig a hole... after materializing, in a few minutes...

The best bets are the Movement power, Illusions spells, and Nature Spirits using Confusion and Concealment.

[FrostyNSO]

hmmmmm, what about great form earth elementals?

[Crimson Jack]

[shadow_scholar]

What about white phosphorus or acid, couldn't that weaken the armor enough to eventually allow something like a Panther Cannon to get in?

[FrostyNSO]

That's a tall order, but I think armor degradation rules (which I've never looked at but still insist upon referencing, hah! I'm so lame :indifferent: ) would have to come into play during a long engagement.

[Dancer]

[Kanada Ten]

[kevyn668]

[Kanada Ten]

Can you find a single canon reference of elementals attacking [the crew inside an active] tank? IE, my response was equally valid.

[BitBasher]

[Dancer]

[kevyn668]

[Club]

I thought I remembered this:

Fields of fire, the page that talks about the Great Dragon ATGM. Matador (RIP) comments that

[Kanada Ten]

[kevyn668]

[Kanada Ten]

Who the frag said "comes with"? Try outfitted with by the parties responsible for owing and running it.

Let me put it this way: You elemental attack is a valid method against those who don't bother to spend 100 to 1000 nuyen protecting a multimillion dollar investment. I just don't see many mercenary groups being that foolish after the lessons learned in Cal-Free, Brazil, and so on.

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Feb 9 2005, 03:39 AM

[mfb]

i don't see any modern army being short-sighted enough to not ward their tanks.

[Senelif]

[kevyn668]

[kevyn668]

[Kanada Ten]

[BitBasher]

[kevyn668]

Did I piss you off or something? I don't know why we're playing "is so--is not."

[kevyn668]

[Kanada Ten]

I prefaced it with "I hope I get banned" and a bunch of other expletives. But as you can see I recanted.

[FrostyNSO]

[kevyn668]

[Kagetenshi]

By canon, the controls do come with armor :P

Or if you'd prefer, tell me where it says armor rating is different depending on where the attack comes from.

~J

[FrostyNSO]

Anybody find out if great form Earth elementals have the shape earth power?

[Kanada Ten]

I assumed you meant the "remote controls", ie the ones inside the panels which have barrier ratings and can be armored. But all attacks directed at a vehicle are made against the vehicle, even those from the inside... Obviously, we can go crazy here, but I default to barrier rules.

[kevyn668]

[kevyn668]

[mfb]

kevyn, it's an intelligent tactic. it's perfectly reasonable to assume that any military force will use intelligent tactics, unless something to the opposite effect is stated.

and if you're going to go by canon, then yes--the controls are armored, because it never states in the description of vehicle armor what the armor does and doesn't cover.

[Kanada Ten]

Where it says "all attacks not considered anti-vehicle directed at a vehicle must have a base Power exceeding double the vehicle's Armor rating and have their damage reduced by 1/2 Power and inflict one lower level of Damage" Paraphrased.

As I said, I default to barrier ratings.

[Kagetenshi]

[kevyn668]

I guess we have an aswer then. Save up and buy the Leopard III. It may take a little longer to get there but no one will ever be able to stop you. Its a smuggler's dream. :)

[kevyn668]

Edit: Nevermind.

[Kanada Ten]