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[weblife]

If you pay 30 points for Magic, you can create a Magician Adept.

If you purchase 6 points of Magic, then you get 36 (6*6) spellpoints to buy spells for.

If you buy this power with a Talisman Geas you pay only 4,5 points.

Now you have a magician, who can both conjure, use sorcery and has 1,5 powerpoints left to buy other adept powers.

You also have more initial spellpoints to buy spells with, than a full mage.

The price you pay is inability to astral project, and you have to chose between Power or Metamagic at initiations, you can't get both like other initiates.

Saving the 1,5 powerpoints and initiating three times, and taking the Improved Initiative lvl 3, with another Taliman Geas costs you 3,75 points.

You now have a good wizard with +6 reaction and +3d6 Initiative dice.

What do you think? - Balanced or IMBA?

[Fortune]

[weblife]

What??

You do not think the Talisman Geasa are the most practical and powerful? :dead:

Who is ever going to take that ring away from you. They can pry it from your dead cold hands. - Nothing stops you from having a spare ring, of the same type, in your drawer back home.

Its pretty easy to replace the talisman, and there are very, very, few situations while shadowrunning where you will lose a talisman. - Unless you pick a flimsy necklace or something.. :D

[Nemo]

The drawback is, that if you loose a magic Point, you can't use a geas to offset it, since you can only use one geas per magic point.

[toturi]

[weblife]

[amadeus]

sorry noob to the forums...

IMBA? what's that?

and it seems to me, that if a GM really wanted to be a dick and totally make your character worthless he could just take your talismen away.

One simple example is, hey you just got hit with two narcoject darts, resist 6D stun with BOdy, twice... probably not gonna do so hot... once your knocked out, and you get captured, they take your rings, for one of two reasons,

1)it's prudent to remove everything from a captured shadowrunner, who knows what this guy can do, maybe he is a mage with a Power Focus???

2) they have a mage look in the astral and bam, he see your talisman and they take it off of you.

So in this situation, unless you have it up your *ss for some odball reason, you are going to lose all of your powers....

just my thoughts on the character idea
amadeus

[weblife]

IMBA = Imbalanced, usually in the context where something makes a game less enjoyable to everyone else, because of its IMBA'ness :)

But the build does have its weaknesses. A true mage fx. would be a much more powerful spellcaster with 3 initiate grades. - Masking, spell turning etc. and a magic of 9, allowing highpowered spells.

But compared to other adepts and streetsams, I do not see any drawbacks to being this kind of adept vs. a phys adept. - One uses boosted powers, but the other has access to spells such as ability buffs and levitate, invisibility etc.

Overall he is much more versatile. This is where I was wondering if any of you have had such a character in your party, and whether it felt too selfreliant/powerful?

[Dawnshadow]

Lots less powerful then a mage for spellcasting -- lower spell pool (it's tied to effective magic for spellcasting). Likewise, less powerful then an adept -- power points and skill points directed to magic.

That being said: they're even more of a karma sink then the rest of the awakened.. since every initiation goes to spellcasting or adept, so to increase both, it takes two initiations. There's more stats and skills that need boosted as well, to keep everything balanced. And the astral perception power is a must -- I didn't get it on mine, and it's causing serious trouble more often then not. You can't target things because your ally spirit says they're there.


Now.. looking at your particular spread: I'm not sure if I'd call that versatile. You've got much higher initiative then a full mage, but you're far less versatile then the full mage, and less powerful then said full mage, and nothing compared to most adepts. The advantage of magician's way adepts is in more than just initiative.. ignoring the rest of the powers (improved sense is amazingly helpful, so is pain resistance, just to name a few) is taking a serious handicap. Improved ability could be amazing.

GM opinions: Improved Ability (sorcery)?

[toturi]

[Dawnshadow]

Oops.. almost always lower spell pool. Same spell pool this case.. and in one really insane case, it's potentially higher. (8 points of magic power under a geas)

[Cain]

Unless my math is off, initiating 3 times is going to eat up almost all your starting spell points. You won't have much left for spells. You could buy more spell points, but that'd require a higher Resources priority, leaving you light on attributes and skills.

[Apathy]

[edit-wrong thread]

[blakkie]

[The Question]

Sorry, can't see the point in this at all. I may be being dense, but your going to have no spells to use if your going the initiatory path (or very few).

Why not just be an Aspected or Full mage and actually be able to sling some spells?

And if I was GM'ing, I certainly wouldn't allow it, seems a bit too twinky for me...

[toturi]

[The Question]

[Fortune]

[toturi]

[The Question]

[hahnsoo]

[The Question]

Given the previously taken example of taking six points, thats 36 spell points. So, with three initiations, thats...5 points for spells if we take the most extreme examples, and you'd have to be a fruit loop GM to allow someone to be part of an Initiatory Group and have succsessfully completed three ordeals at creation...

Correct me if Im wrong, but whats in it for the group?

"Yeah, we'll give this guy access to all our resources and magical power. That Force 5 spell might come in handy at some point..."

[Edward]

There are plenty of reasons why you may have initiated with a group before char gen. you won’t necessarily still have contact with the group however (did you buy it as a contact) the default explanation would be ex wage mage using corporate initiatory group.

I think you don’t have enough spell points however for spells, if you have initiated 3 times focusing so heavily on magical power you should have some spells between. You can mess around with exclusive and fetish spells to round out your repetwar but you need a few more powerful spells.

A single initiation is all I think you could justify.

Edward

[The Question]

[Apathy]

[The Question]

[Apathy]

I don't have my books handy here at work. When you break your oath (or destroy your thesis), do you just lose the extra magic point, or do you lose the meta-magic as well?

[hahnsoo]

[Edward]

The points rased go together nicely.

The annoyance of the corp fits nicely with the fact that every SR character has enemies based on resources if the character has low resources then an additional extra enemy flaw should be taken (gaining appropriate points) to represent the annoyed corporation.

The first ordeal would almost certainly be oath which yes is broken, I would not insist the magic point be lost for this (in play it would have bee random) but the character may not gain a reduced karma cost for another oath ordeal.

The second would not necessarily be thesis, writing a thesis is not a quick think (my chars usually take 3 months, possibly with a break for a run) and if the thesis is not expected to be useful as a research work another ordeal would be preferable and a blood or tissue sample taken as a material link. In either case it is plausible that the ritual liken could have been stolen destroyed or misfiled. Wether the corporation is still in position of a material link to the character would be determined by the enemy corporations knowledge rating more than any other factor.

Edward

[The Question]

Destroying a Thesis causes you to lose a Magic point. Theres no actual losses involved in breaking an Oath, however these are tied into the groups Strictures, and they will know that youve broken one. If they decide to kick you out of the group, or you decide to leave voluntarily, and youve made an Oath, you check for Magic loss.

Either way, you've pissed off a group of high level mages with corporate backing. In other words, your dead...

[The Question]

[Nikoli]

So, your thrid initiation you alter your signature, thesis no longer acts as link.

[hahnsoo]

[The Question]

[Nikoli]

How do you think it changes your signature? That's how the link exists, it's a link to your signature. Now, DNA will screw you, as it should.

[The Question]

[hahnsoo]

You don't get "links" to your signature. An astral signature is merely an astral imprint that is left on all magical activities that any particular mage does (including enchanting, sorcery, and conjuring). A Thesis would have both your astral signature AND a ritual link to you. If you change your astral signature through initiation, the link still remains.

You can take ritual links and "hide" the link on a metaplane (MitS, p94). But that's about as far as you can go to prevent ritual sorcery. Of course, this isn't to suggest that changing your astral signature is a bad idea... ALL of those mages will be very familiar with your signature, and thus it would be a good idea to change it.

[Nikoli]

Well, there's my nugget of knowledge for the day, thanks.

[Cain]

Don't forget that joining a Magical Group costs you 3 spell points/karma. So, if a GM is silly enough to allow someone to have 3 group initiations with ordeal, pre-game, then the character would start with a whopping 2 spell points.

[fistandantilus4....]

Magicians- way's are pretty easy to balance.
1) don't allow pre-game initiation. nasty can of worms, especially when you start figuring in groups and ordeals.

2) use the magic point OR metamagic rule. Keeps them from becoming all things in one

3) why use the adept power for improved reflexes? Quicken it. yes, it can be dispelled, but doesn't waste power points.

And yeah, I suppose technically you could use imp ablty - sorcery, but I wouldn't allow it. That's like using the exceptional ability edge for firearms skills, or melee.

BTW< where does it state that magicians way adepts need to purchase asatral perception. I don't doubt that it does, because I've learned to respect Hahnsoo's book-fu, but it doens't make nuch sense to me. IMO, a caster would need to be able to perceive the mana to manipulate it.

[hahnsoo]

[fistandantilus4....]

[Mortax]

Sorcery adepts can't astrally percive, but they can still cast.

[hahnsoo]

[fistandantilus4....]

which sort of explains his lack of magical power in terms of spell casting. interesting point of view actually

[weblife]

[hahnsoo]

[fistandantilus4....]

[Fortune]

[Fortune]

As for MW Adepts and Initiation, I treat them as I would normal Adepts (as listed above). What they do with the Power Point is up to them.

[weblife]

Alas, you are correct. The FAQ does state that its either PP or Meta, not both. :(

This, however, makes Metamagic really expensive for the poor Mag Adept. - The only one I'll probably get, is the Spell Shielding.

[hahnsoo]

[Fortune]

[weblife]

Masking is not as important. The perciever needs two successes on a normal assensing roll to determine you are an adept.

Then they get informed of 1 power pr. additional success on their assensing check. You do not need all that many powers before it becomes nearly impossible for someone to scout you out completely.

Those 0.25 PP sense powers can keep even the most perceptive busy for awhile.

-

I am also convinced that the FAQ is wrong. It makes no sense that a, perhaps, rash decision to give MW Adepts 2 PP pr. initiation ends up nerfing the class. Instead they should have rolled back the 2 PP option, not taken away the PP + Meta option.

[hahnsoo]

[weblife]

Karma Average 12 11 11 12 12 13 14 14 15 16

The above is the average cost in Karma, pr. Initiation Grade. This can be used to clarify the game balance issue here.

Most of us play in games, where 1-5 grades of initiation is attainable.

A normal mage, or normal adept, recieves Magic/Power + a Meta for each grade. Effectively, the Meta must be half or less of the grade value.

The MW Adept must, according to the FAQ, not the book, pay 11-12 Karma for the Meta alone. This is not balanced at all.

Lets look the other way. In the book its stated that the MW Adept has the option of taking an extra PP, instead of a Meta. Lets look at what he can do with it.

First off, no single Power can be greater than the adepts Magic Attribute, so he can't misuse the extra Power to get more powerful than the true mages in spellpower alone.

As an Adept, he's (in spirit of the way) obliged to spend PP's on Magical Power, which means he is puny in the combat aspects of a pure Adept. The MW Adept also lacks Astral Perception, that costs 2 PP.

If our MW Adept strives to master his way, and become a good mage, he needs to get Astral Perception. Thats two initiate grades worth of extra PP's thats spent there. He's still short two Metas compared to the true mage though.

He's also still short on the pure Adept in combat ability.

The third and so on Initiation Grade begins to allow the MW Adept to catch up somewhat, but he is still sacrificing Metas to do it. Using Geas for PP rebates it can go a little faster, but its still a long haul.

I think, that yes, in a 200+ Karma campaign the MW Adept, as described in the books, can begin to outshine the "pure" adept. He'll never match the pure mage in magic ability.

If you use the MW Adept to break the system, as in making a phys adept who does Not buy a point of Magical Power each Initiation Grade, then yes he outshines and kills off normal Adepts. - But then he isn't true to his Way and the GM should disallow it.

Kept in context, and with a minimum of GM call (keep on the chosen Path), the class holds it own, but it not overpowered. - This addendum should be in the FAQ, not the current total nerf.

[fistandantilus4....]

If the MW takes just one point for spell casting, he's just under the ability of a normal adept, plus spell casting power. yes, he takes physical drain, but that can be taken care of with a high will, centering (if he has Astral perception), not too mention how nice a power focus would make it for him. With a power focus, he has little reason to put power into spell casting. Using stuff like that, and the adept version, they can just buy more spells, and work on their adept abilities.

Basically, as I see it at least, there's no reason that they should be able to effectively get twice as much magical power , just because they don't get a meta magic. Why wouldn't a normal adept do that then?

The ability to cast spells, and even enchant their own equipment makes them even stronger. Enchant a weapon, learn attunement, improved ability, combat sense sustainng foucs perhaps, quicken imp reflexes, adept power resist pain.... on and on, the abilities that they can take that complement each other MORE than make up for limiting the amount of metamagics they get at the expense of power points.

[hahnsoo]

It's not a "class". You're either playing a gimped mage with some adept powers or a gimped adept with some mage powers. You get versatility at the cost of power. The way it is set up now, a Magician's Way adept should never "hold his own" with either a Mage or an Adept at an equivalent cost of Karma. I believe this to be part of the game design, to keep such combinations rare. I'm currently playing a Magician's Way adept using the FAQ rules, and he's probably the single most powerful and versatile character in the group, despite the supposed "Karma lag", and we have an adept and a shaman in the group. I'm about 30 Karma behind the shaman (probably more, as she's been burning a lot of Cash for Karma).

Folks are free to house-rule it the way that they'd like, of course. The effect is rather obvious when you tune-up the Magician's Way adept... they become much more attractive to play. If that is your intent, then by all means, go with it.

Not sure where you are getting the "Average Karma for Initiation" numbers. It's not any table that I've seen... this is the actual Karma table:

[weblife]

[audun]

Exactly why is it that MW adepts don't use the same initiation rules as other adepts?
As the MW adepts effective Magic attribute only is his rating in Magical Power, the increased Magic from Inititation has no effect unless applied as a Power Point. Where exactly is it that the MW adept is getting any overpowered effects from Inititation? I don't get it, could someone please enligthen me?

[weblife]

[toturi]

[audun]

[toturi]

If the sentence was removed, then the adept would be able to gain both a power point and a meta technique which is not what the author wanted.

[Fortune]

I can see no logical reason why a MW Adept does not Initiate in the exact same manner as any other Adept. After all, he is an Adept, who just happened to pay a little extra in BP at chargen to have access to the Magical Power ability.

[weblife]

[toturi]

[The Question]

[weblife]

[hahnsoo]

[toturi]

[fistandantilus4....]

[Dawnshadow]

One power point vs One metamagic.

Personally, I don't think they're comperable. Most of the power points as a MW Adept don't help me especially much when mages are trying to kill me. Shielding does. Invoking helps tremendously against most opponents -- I don't dare conjure more than a force 4 spirit, but after making it greatform, it's useful.

Masking? Helpful. Don't know how much. Centering? Haven't taken it yet.

But IA, killing hands, all require as much karma or more as conjuring, for instance. What good is killing hands (Deadly) if you have no unarmed skill? Odds aren't good that you'll hit. Not at all. The fact that some metamagics require linked skills doesn't mean metamagics are less useful. Almost all adept abilities also require karma spent -- they'd to boost skills, not replace skills.

[fistandantilus4....]

Sorry, my point was supposed to be more on how on some of the matemagics, such a centering, you ahve to take an entirely new skill. In my expereince at least, the character that takes killing hands started the game with unarmed combat 6, and is probably specialized. Where as , at least in my games, I have yet to see a character that started with a conjuring of 6 (4 or 5 usually).

Sorry I didn't explain that too well. Once again, just my point of view. I think a lot of it depend on how the character is played. What his strengths and weaknesses are. Obviously there's no point to a character without unarmed taking killing hands deadly, jsut as there's no point taking invoking without a conjuring skill. I just think that once you know what aspect of your character you're focusing on, it's overpowering to be able to put two points on to that each grade. I mean, group initation with an ordeal, 9 good karma? For 2 points? That could be 4 points of an attribute for 9 karma. Yes quickening can do that, but quickening can be dispelled, and detected, and grounded if you use those rules.

[weblife]

Fistandantilus, it sounds like you are used to a lowpower game..

In my group its very common to be at max unmodified ability in most attributes. This means that 1 PP only buys 1 attribute point, since its already at the unmod limit. - And if I went from 4 to 6 (as a human) it would cost me 22 Karma. If the stat is STR I could do it for 11, using anabolic steroids.

Secondly, most mages take conjuring 6, sorcery 6 and centering 6, at creation, in preparation of the Meta ability to come.

Thirdly, buying sensory power, while yes 4 powers for 1 PP is a bargain, its all stuff a norm with a helmet could match. Its not unbalancing.

Then theres boosting skills.. This one is strong. But is it stronger than the shielding meta, that adds your initiate grade to the TN of all hostile spells thrown at you?

Anyway, I think I've come to the conclusion that, yes the MW Adept is strong. But not unreasonably so. Atleast we all seem to agree that ordinary method of initiating is good. No silly pick a Meta and get no PP stuff (as the FAQ suggests).

[The Question]

[Dawnshadow]

The Question: According to the FAQ ruling.. No, he can't.

He can develop a halfstep on either path per initiation, and not at all along both. (Equivalently, it requires 2 initiations to take a single step along either path, according to the FAQ ruling)

Developing one step on one or the other:

He can take another point of magic power and a mage metamagic.
He can take a normal power point and adept metamagic

Because to say he's developing as one or the other.. mages always get metamagics, so do adepts, and adepts get multiple grades of centering. Stealth & Athletics, Ranged Combat, Melee combat.. and most other active skills, if I recall correctly.

Using Normal Initiation Rules:

He can develop one or the other.. or take part steps on both. (Magic Power and Adept Metamagic, Power Point and mage metamagic).

Denying them normal initiations isn't making them jack of all trades. It's making them dabbler of both. You're halving the benefits of initiation for them, and they can't just buy power points like a normal adept (unless people have disallowed that in their game)

[The Question]

But the Magicians Way Adept still increases his Magic points by one whichever option he chooses. So he can either choose to initiate as a standard Mage and increase his potential spell casting power, or choose the more limited method and just take a Power Point. Allowing a MWA to have Magic 7, 7 PP's and a Meta Magic after their first initiation is unbalanced: neither straight Adepts or Mages get this level of advancement, so why should the hybrid?

[Dawnshadow]

....Huh?

His magic rating operates like a normal adepts. His spellcasting depends solely on his level of Magic Power -- which requires a power point.

That's why people who argue strict rules say MW adepts always get a power point, and have the option of taking a second power point instead of a metamagic. Because they're adepts, they always get a power point when they increase in magic rating.

Most people just ignore it entirely and go with standard adept initiation, because it means that they can boost their spellcasting or adept powers, and take a metamagic. They can't increase both effectively -- closest they can do is take a geased point of magic power and a .25 power point power.

[The Question]

[Sharaloth]

Question, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.

When a MWA initiates, they gain a power point, just like any other adept, to spend as they see fit, including getting another point of Magic Power to increase their Magic rating for spells and conjuring. The text offered gives them the option of gaining a SECOND power point instead of a metamagic.

What you seem to be saying is that initiation automatically increases Magic Power. It does not, that has to be gained with a Power Point from the new overall magic attribute rating.

Hell, I don't know what you're saying, the more I read over your statements, the more confused with them I become.

[Eyeless Blond]

[The Question]

After re-reading MitS, I have to agree with Sharaloth and Eyeless in that "effective" Magic is not explicitly stated as being improved with initiation. However, this is probably something I'd houserule so that an Adept who has spent three points on magic would have an "effective" rating of four after initiation, then the option of PP or Metamagic. This seems fair to me.

Apoligies if my misreading of the rule has caused anyone confusion.

[fistandantilus4....]

[The Question]

[fistandantilus4....]

yes.

The way I run it at least, an adpet's power points are just the application of their magic rating. At character gen, PC has magic 6, PP6. When they initiate, they're magic goes up 1. They can use that for their adept powers, or their spellcasting. Hope I'm explaining it so that it makes sense.

[The Question]

And THEN do you apply the Power Point or Metamagic rule? Because thats the way Im currently leaning...

So to specify, at Initiation a Magicans Way Adept gets;

An increase to Magic Level AND Effective Magic Level
1 Power Point OR 1 Metamagic

[Cain]

I wouldn't.

Look, the "effective" Magic rating is bought with PP, just like any other adept power. When an adept of any stripe initiates, they [usually] gain 1 Magic point, which translates into 1 PP, which can be used to buy any adept power they have access to.

By giving physmages an increase to their Magical Power *and* their normal magic rating, they gain twice as much as a normal mage. Heck, they could put both points into Magical Power, if they felt like it. If you allow that, they could rapidly outsrip normal mages!

Letting physmages use the normal initiation rules isn't bad, or game-breaking in any fashion. Giving them twice as much gain as any Awakened character is just silly.

[The Question]

Your right Cain, I got so confused by this whole topic that I actually forgot what my initial position was! Going back through it, I am of the opinion that the FAQ ruling seems fair enough.

[Dawnshadow]

How is halving the benefits of initiation fair?

They are inherently less powerful as an adept then a pure adept -- at any equivalent level of initiation, they have fewer power points, barring magic loss (As one point MUST be spent on magic power).

They are inherently less powerful then any mage at an equivalent initiation level -- they cannot have equivalent effective magic ratings and astral perception without taking 6 geasa.

How is making their initiation worth half as much fair? How does it do anything BUT cripple them? In any type of contest between magician's, the metamagic techniques are of vital importance. But if the Magician's Way adept takes any, he loses out on the power points he needs to improve his abilities -- including his ability to cast higher level spells.

Two 3rd grade initiates -- we'll even make the Magician's Way adept have 6 points of magic power, all geasa'd to something that doesn't influence this fight. He's done his meditation or whatever. He's also taken astral perception (under a geas). 6 power points spent. He's initiated 3 times, taking metamagics. The mage throws force 9 spells without drain, and he learned them with his astral quests. The Adept? Same metamagics. Can't even come close to throwing the spells. Now, if he takes the power points instead, throws them into magic power, he can throw the spells -- if he can learn them. And he's slaughtered because he's got no metamagic techniques.

He's not even a CHALLENGE. Not even remotely close to comperable -- and his abilities are geared to take him as close to mage as possible.

Compared to an adept.. taking the 5.25 power points of non-magic power (the most he can theoretically take, geas'ing the magic power).. He will ALWAYS have fewer power points then another adept. It will just get worse over initiations, because he needs to spend initiation grades just to get the metamagics adepts have.

That's the two extremes -- weighted as heavily to adept and as heavily to mage as possible. Going somewhere in the middle, they can hold their own -- barely -- at creation, but are horrendously outstriped as the other two initiate. They need double the karma to get the same benefits.

[Fortune]

[The Question]

[Fortune]

The way I see it, there are three options.

The first is from the FAQ, and basically hamstrings MW Adepts in relation to any other awakened characters, making them worth less even though they cost more (in BP).

The second is the way suggested earlier, where the Adept automatically gains a bonus to Magic Power, plus the choice of either (another) Power Point or a Metamagic. This has a very large potential for abuse, and lead to some quite overpowered MW Adepts.

The third option is the middle ground, whereby a MW Adept Initiated in the exact same manner as any other awakened character. This past option seems to be the fairest, at least in my opinion.

[Apathy]

I lean toward agreeing with fistandantilus. If you allow MW adepts to get exactly the same benifits from initiation as either Normal Adepts or Mages, then they become a 'favored class', since they have the flexibility to chose between either class, and no compensating penalty to balance out that flexibility. On the other hand, the existing rules make advancement of any kind difficult for the MWadept.

I'd like to hear suggestions that gives MW adepts slightly more advancement potential than they have now, but still leaves them less magically able than either mages or adepts at those group's specialties (to compensate for the other groups' lack of flexibility).

For example, I might allow PM adepts in my game to advance along the lines set below in option 3 (of Fortune's post) if I made their initiation a little more expensive (perhaps not letting them join magical groups).

[Dawnshadow]

Apathy.. they will ALWAYS be less then an equivalent initiation grade of Magician or Adept. There's no way for them to avoid it.

They can't astrally project. They have to spend 2 power points (1.5 under a geas) to have astral perception. Serious handicap as a mage.

They will always have at least 1 fewer power points then an adept. They have to spend at least 1 on magic power.

Adding further penalties on top of those, well... you could do it. But why? FAQ ruling about buying power points aside (didn't they read MITS? It says in the Magician's Way Adept section that they can't buy power points like that.. obviously the rule is intended to be used BY ADEPTS using the rules from MITS...) Magician's Way adepts have a whole other problem.

Everyone compares them against a single mage, or a single adept. Stop and think about what happens when you compare them to a mage AND an adept.

They have to initiate twice to stay comparable to both. More than double the cost -- slightly increased benefits for some powers, but it becomes a lot harder to advance. Over a campaign where the magician and adept reach grade 4 initiate... the magician's way adept, to stay at the same level of power and skill, comparatively, as before, has to initiate 8 times -- and spend as much in skills as both combined. But.. they do not get double the karma.

[audun]

[Apathy]

[Dawnshadow]

In other words, you're considering Magician's Way Adepts to have massive boosts as Adepts, instead of handicaps as mages.

That's not a fair view of it, though, because mages -- who at the same build point cost, get even more abilities -- and properly used, astral projection and free astral perception are immensely beneficial. Most of the adept abilities are also duplicated by spells -- not all, but most. Killing hands -- death touch. Attribute boost/improved attribute -- increase attribute/sustaining focus. Reflexes obviously. Mystic armour is worse then an armour spell. I would say, more than are useful at force 1, but hey, I'm someone that's said a force 1 light manabolt can be useful, if you've got the sorcery skill to back it up. Force 1 armour though...

Personally, I think it would be rather easy to sit down and make a mage character that can do just as much as an adept, powers wise, and still have a large amount of other abilities.

Lets see.. increase reflexes +3 (1), increased quickness (3), armour (3).. 3 sustaining foci... and you've got equivalent to 8 power points. And all those other spells...

Now.. looking at the magician's way adept, with 1 power point in magic power:
spell pool at char gen: 4 + magic power/3, max. (int 6, will 6: 4 spell pool)
ability to banish spirits: nearly nonexistant-- surefire way to get burned out.
ability to learn high force spells easily: completely nonexistant (no astral quests)

[Apathy]

That sounds like an argument that all adepts, not just MW adepts, are underpowered compared to mages, or conversely that mages are comparatively overpowered.

I'd actually tend to agree with this, but tend to think it's more a problem with the balancing of the mages than the balancing of the adepts (or MW adepts).

If you changed initiation in your games to work the same for MW adepts as it did for any other mage/adept, do you think power-gamers would have any reason to play straight physical adepts?

[Dawnshadow]

Yep. Playing one with standard initiation, one other PC is an adept.

Very different characters, and the adept was more dangerous in many ways -- and has the advantage, because we tend to disregard the FAQ, so the adept just buys power points now.. MW adept can't, and has got serious problems improving magically because of it.

In fact, only reason I'm playing a magician's way adept is because it fits the character I had in mind better -- he didn't HAVE all the SR mage abilities, but he did have supernatural physical abilities. If I'd wanted to play the power-game perspective, it would likely have been pure mage, or pure adept. I'd need another hundred karma in stats and initiations to be able to match the other adept in anything but a swordfight -- and if I didn't have the ambidexterity, I wouldn't even match him there. And any of the NPC mages involved can clean my clock. Thouroughly. Shielding isn't enough of an edge, not at 4th grade initiate.