 Question, Is change that bad? |
 May 10 2005, 11:07 AM
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It's for winners  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 523 Joined: 8-February 05 From: Wiltshire with da shooty stuff Member No.: 7,067  |
Ok So SR4 is on the horizon and there are some unhappy puppys out there, whats the problem with change? I mean ok its all speculation on the fine details of SR4 but thing's move on .... technology gets better and people change. It is just the natural course of things that it will change? So why are so many people unhappy about SR evolving? torz x :? |
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May 10 2005, 11:26 AM
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I'm unhappy with it because the change is much bigger than it has been in any previous jump between editions. I don't mind change, or evolution. Evolution (despite what the X-Men might have us think) doesn't leap and bound like this, though. They're making an awful lot of very big changes, all at once. An awful lot.
I liked modifiable TN's, and considered them a staple of my Shadowrun diet. I won't have them any more. I liked player-controlled tactically applicable pools, and considered them a staple of my Shadowrun diet. I won't have them any more, either. I -- it's a small thing, but a thing nonetheless -- genuinely liked that SR stayed "real time" with it's growth and change (it was one of the first games, IIRC, to do this, and the fact it changed in real time was neat). Now it's off by five years. In much the same way the retroactive history in SoNA and a few other places bugged me ("Oh, it looks like this has been going on for a few years, now!"), this five-year jump forward kinda bugs me. Nothing major, and I understand the reasoning for it; but it irks me a little, anyhow. *shrugs* So, yeah. I'm not looking forward to it. I'm not gonna try and make other people not look forward to it, I'm not gonna not buy it, I'm not gonna pretend it's not being published. I can't say for sure whether I'm going to like it or not -- I haven't seen the finished product -- but I can say that I'm not eager about it, based on the information we've got so far. |
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May 10 2005, 12:15 PM
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#3
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
Is change good or bad? That depends on the change.
The amount of change that appears from reading the FAQs amounts not to an evolution of Shadowrun but a revolution. I think that changing to a fixed TN will make the game system 'coarser' in that any variables will be less subtle. Adding or subtracting a die is statistically a much larger change than changing the TN by +1/-1. I think that having player controlled dice pools is a good idea. The application of that idea did, in my opinion, need changing. That option is now gone. In my opinion having what seems to be a completely new set of rules is not a good idea. I think that it is a change too far. torzzzzz, there seems to be an unspoken assumption in your post that all change is good. In evolutionary terms a change may lead down a dead end to extinction. I do not like what I feel are enormous changes in the Shadowrun game. The changes may be good, they may even be necessary, but I don't have to like them. In a previous poll, a large number of people said that the rules system of a game was 25% or more of what they liked about it. In writing a new rules system FanPro are taking a big gamble. I will continue to play Shadowrun, I will buy the BBB4 to see where the game is going. I will continue to buy source books, but I won't be buying the other 'core' books or using the SR4 game system. |
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May 10 2005, 12:18 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
In the wise words of Aenea: "Choose Again."
Nothing is constant. If SR4 is a viable RPG in a futuristic fantasy/goth setting, then FanPro has done their job. Why care if you can recognize the rulesystem? - Its the same world, tweaked up, sure, but overall it will be the universe we already enjoy. Too much too fast, not possible, unrealistic, all these terms are the spawn of stagnant minds. Open up and smell the roses. You feel safe and comfortable with your rules and views, but if you do not challenge them and change over time, then you are not growing as individuals. I know these words sound a little imperious and will probably spawn alot of flack, but seriously, closemindedness influences all aspects of your life. And if a RPG changing and revising their rulesystem gets you up in arms like this, then you are putting way too much into it. I love roleplaying, and am passionate about the universes built by the game creators, but in no way would I post so aggressively and negatively about a new version of a game. - Change is good. |
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May 10 2005, 12:23 PM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Who cares what's "natural"? Cancer is natural... So is being eaten by a lion, or being an old man at 40. Having enough free time to sit on your butt and play Shadowrun sure as hell isn't, though. And change might be inevitable, but it's hardly a good thing, by definition. Change is what's going to make you die and rot one day. ;) Anyway, the current changes simply aren't what a lot of people had in mind. There's a lot of things I'd have liked changed in SR3, for example, but not one of them made their way into SR4. (or in rare cases, they did, but since the whole system changed as well, it made them irrelevant) |
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May 10 2005, 12:30 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I smell bullshit, and loads of it besides. These are all legitimate concerns. To just go ahead and brush them off is idiotic. ~J |
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May 10 2005, 12:31 PM
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
weblife....
1. I rarely see people so arrogant. 2. GOTH? GOTH? This is not fucking World of Darkness. |
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May 10 2005, 12:39 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
Yes, yes, my bad. I completely forgot that zombies, ghosts, ghouls, vampires and werebeings doesn't exist in SR. Oops, they do. To my eyes, SR is a world that lends itself quite nicely to a gothic setting. Arrogant? :rotfl: I'd think being convinced something unknown is, by definition, bad, is even more arrogant. |
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May 10 2005, 01:03 PM
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#9
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Shadowrun isn't really a goth game. If that's what you're looking for, you can possibly make it work, but it's not going to be the thematic thrust of SR4, I can tell you that much. White Wolf already has that angle covered pretty solidly.
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May 10 2005, 01:16 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 437 Joined: 11-April 05 Member No.: 7,318 |
Goth or not is not the main turning point here. The discussion is whether its better to await the unknown with an open mind, or to lock up and diss the whole thing.
Most of the replies in the SR4 forum are worded something akin to this: "I really want xxxxx to be in SR4, that sucks if they don't do that!" "I really DON'T want xxxxxxxx to be in SR4, I'll go nuts if they put it in!" I don't see too much of: "Hey, they are gonna put in xxxxxxxx, that sounds really interesting I wonder if it works like..." or "I have a great idea for SR4, and I want your opinion before I mail my idea to FanPro, just because you never know." SR4 is being made because FanPro expects there to be an audience who will welcome a game in that genre. They are trying to fit in our real world developments into their futuristic version. This will take some tweaking, particularly because the development is running much faster than first imagined by the writers of SR. - Leading to seemingly impossible techjumps in the SR timeline. I do not take this as disheartening at face value. SR4 will be tempered to allow it to work. Converting from SR3 to SR4 will be quite easy if you don't get caught up in details that may or may not be realistic to your mind. |
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May 10 2005, 01:23 PM
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#11
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Er, you know none of those creature types are necessarily goth, right? In fact, every single one of them predate "goth", both in its modern definition as a style of dress and its earlier one as a group of people. It's only recent stereotyping, Anne Rice novels and the WoD roleplaying game that make these things Goth. Anyway, torzzzz, my problem really isn't the change. In fact, I'm more than a little happy with the streamlining and rules simplification; there is far far too much bloat and inconsistency in the current ruleset, such that even seasoned veterans have a hard time with many of the rules. At the same time much of the technological background badly needs updating. Honestly it's about time that they actually went and made a new edition; the current one is far too out-of-date and clunky. The problem I have is, essentially, I don't trust Fanpro to write what amounts to a completely new game system from scratch--hell I don't think I'd really trust them to write even a much less far-reaching ruleset. Take a look at the current SR3 FAQs; the Fanpro writers, while brilliant at coming up with new toys and weaving the metaplot, just can't write good, self-consistent game rules without stabbing themselves in the face repeatedly. The SR4 "FAQs" seem to bear out this suspicion; never before have I seen a company try to market a product by telling the public exactly what it doesn't want to hear without actually saying anything at all. Anyway, my opinions are all over this forum, many times more coherent than this post. Go ahead and search for my nick if you want my opinion; I'll let someone else have the soapbox now. :) |
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May 10 2005, 01:29 PM
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#12
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
You don't know what's in there beyond the FAQ blurbs and some badly translated German. You can't say with any authority what's in there, and you sure don't know which changes made it and which haven't...if only for the very simple reason that we don't have everything nailed down yet. |
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May 10 2005, 01:38 PM
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#13
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
You haven't been looking very hard then. At first there were dozens of posts to that very effect. It was slowly made clear after a couple of the "FAQs", though, that not only is almost *nothing* going to remain even similar to what we've seen in previous editions, but that they have totally changed the definitions and basic principles of the few things we do know--like dice pools and attributes. And they took two months to say even those simple things. It has become painfully obvious that nothing we say here is going to even make sense under the current rules, as everything has been so switched around as to be virtually unrecognizable, so the positive forward-thinkers really have nothing to speculate on, leaving only the knee-jerk negative reactions. And the whole thing is being actively encouraged by whoever the heck is doing the marketing for SR4, which completely mystifies me. Do they honestly believe that dampening the fanbase's enthusiasm for SR4 is going to encourage them to buy it? I already have seen several people on these forums--possibly the largest collection of hard-core Shadowrun fanatics in the English-speaking world--declare that the SR4 FAQs have convinced them to *not* buy the core book, not so much because of what was presented so far, but how it was presented. And I'm one of them. |
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May 10 2005, 01:49 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 9-May 05 Member No.: 7,382 |
Everyone is going to see what comes when it comes. They have no choice.
The question is whether you expect the change to be good or bad. No matter which "side" you lean towards, you've formed a prejudiced view. Looking at things critically is not being closed-minded, no matter what conclusions you end up drawing. IMO, refusing to form an opinion because you can't control things is more stagnant than anything. I echo the opinion that change is not inherently good or bad. However, (early) signs seem to indicate that this particular change will not be good. Keep in mind that people on this forum are fans of SR3. To convince them that change is good, you have to provide reasons. So far, no one has been presented with many. The changes that have been announced so far are not popular. If you need more reason to justify the uproar, you might not be looking critically at the (scarce) evidence at hand. |
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May 10 2005, 03:32 PM
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I know that what I wanted were changes to SR3, not a complete re-writing of the sytem, which means that by definition, I'm not getting what I want. It might turn out that I'll like SR4 anyway, but unless all the info posted so far has been outright wrong, it'll be despite at least some of its features. By the way, I might have said it before, but using the "everything isn't nailed down" line to convince people SR4 is going to be a good thing never seemed like a good idea - and now, only 3 months before release, even less so. |
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May 10 2005, 03:41 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139 |
All change is not growth; as all movement is not forward. Ellen Glasgow I don't have a problem with growth, or evolution. SR has been growing and evolving since it was released; Cyber, magic, decking, etc - all of it has had growth and change. The setting itself continues to evolve as well. And those are all good things. Changing, evolving, growing is good. Burning it down and rebuilding it is bad. I keep hearing that 'We don't know what's staying and whats going' - but one of the faqs said pretty clearly that it is a new system.
Thats pretty clear to me : New rules. And while the 'What's not changing' was pretty much a joke:
That only confirms - the rules are basically being burned to the ground and rebuilt. I'm sure there will be some familar terms, but it seems to be a whole new game (System). The setting will undergo some changes. That has been made clear in the 'five year jump' mention. Even ignoring the German stuff, which is aperently badly translated, the mention of the wireless matrix is a huge setting/flavor change. And just why are the German fans getting more then the American/English speaking bunch?? why do I have a problem with it? I don't see the nessity for change of this magnatude. There's several ways that an evolution in tech could be introduced. There are several ways some tweaks to the rules could be done. If rules are truly and completly broken, then fix them and reprint the book. Other manufacturers have done that and it works. If the rules are being modified to prevent 'muchkinism' then stuff it. If the rules are being changed to pacify a few loud mouthed whiners then stuff it. If the rules are being changed becuase Fanpro feels the need to write their own ruleset then WTF? Make another game, market it and see if it works. Don't screw up a good system. |
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May 10 2005, 05:05 PM
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Lets face it, Shadowrun is getting a new system. The setting is all that stays, and even that is undergoing an overhaul. Is it good? unknown. Is it bad? IMO No. It will be different, and change is hard.
Like many have said before, I reserve judgement until it comes out. I will buy it, and if I like it I will play it. Until then it is SR3 for me. |
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May 10 2005, 05:15 PM
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#18
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Change is neither good nor bad. It simply is.
Remember New Coke? |
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May 10 2005, 05:16 PM
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#19
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Knight Templar Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 212 Joined: 20-June 04 From: Ipswich, UK Just South of the Stinkfens Member No.: 6,424 |
Changing rules can make a great difference to how a game is played even if the setting is identical. If you have a game like 1st edition Runequest (going back a bit I know) in which characters have low hit points, then even a Rune Lord-Priest is going to have a tough time against a mob of trollkin armed with spears. In a high hit point game like D&D even using the same background a Rune Lord-Priest equivalent can ignore an almost infinite number of trollkin. Rules therefore do have an effect on tactics within a game.
I do not think, and have never said, that the SR3 rules are perfect; far from it! Writing an entirely new set of rules is, as someone mentioned in another post, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. When the first press release came out I was expecting a revision of the old rules, not an entirely new game system. If, as Patrick says; "we don't have everything nailed down yet", FanPro is cutting things a little fine. I don't how much lead time is required to get SR4 to the printers so as to be ready for release at GenCon, but any changes made now won't have much chance to be playtested. |
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May 10 2005, 05:16 PM
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Both false. Change can be good or bad. It is not consistently one thing, but neither is it consistently neither.
~J |
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May 10 2005, 05:28 PM
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#21
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Hehehe, have faith, there'll be oversights and bugs, and as a result we'll get a FAQ just as useful as the current one! ;) :D :grinbig:
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May 10 2005, 05:39 PM
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Fear of the unknown. None of us (developers, freelancers and playtesters aside) really have *any* information that can let us make an informed decision. As Patrick has pointed out, FAQs and some brief German documentation do not a game make. That, or we are already anticipating "how does invisibility work on cameras" again. :lick: |
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May 10 2005, 05:48 PM
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
I'm given to understand about 3 weeks. We've got the rest of May and all of June to hammer on things. We've got July to get things proofed yet again and into layout. As long as the book is at the printers by the end of July, it should make an end of August release date. Adam, you've worked in the industry on that side of things. Check me on this. |
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May 10 2005, 05:50 PM
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#24
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Tilting at Windmills Group: Members Posts: 1,636 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Amarillo, TX, CAS Member No.: 388 |
This is me talking. The player, not the playtester and not the writer. I say this now so that in case the "I speak for myself" disclaimer in my sig isn't enough, I make it obvious that I'm in no way connected to FanPro with this particular post.
And you have the unmitigated gall to say that you're not bashing the developers and those involved in working on the new edition. You're so full of shit I can't begin to tell you.... Will it be perfect out of the gate? No, but show me something that is. Don't go out of your way, however, to make it seem like we're fuckups looking for some way to screw things up. That is the very essence of bashing the developers. |
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May 10 2005, 05:55 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
IMHO, the only reason the rules are changing is so Fanpro can try and push the game into a larger market. More power to them.
1) If you are not going to buy the book then quit bitching about it and post elsewhere. We enthusiats do not need to come here and see your naysaying. 2) Quit trolling Weblife's comment about the game being fantasy/goth. True its scifi/fantasy or steampunk or whatever but if you or your gaming group or you GM/DM isn't original enough to tweak the setting more to fit your groups style then it is not his fault. He sees the setting as more goth and it is his style. You can easily interpret this setting with other aspects so please don't knock anyone for choosing to do so. Who cares if WW or WoD has that setting in aces, they suck. |
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