 Communism in Sixth World, How it looks like? |
 Jun 17 2005, 10:53 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 216 Joined: 6-August 03 From: Polish Ghetto Member No.: 5,342  |
Any communist's countries in Shadowrun?
If so, how they look like? Maybe like Russia in 1950's - Your Leader is your God. Or maybe like in China right now - more cynical IMHO - economy is open to the world, but THE Party rules. HOW IT (communism) LOOKED IN REAL? I spend half of my life in communism (Poland until 1989). It wasn't fun. Pretty boring. Only one or two TV channels with propaganda stuff. (my favorite slogan: "We FIGHT for peace" :D ). You are cut out from "free world". Newspapers are lying about world outside. ("Capitalists are jealous and they want to destroy our communist paradise". Well to be honest they didn't use paradise :) .) There are many restrictions. (particulary during marshall law: nobody can be outside when is dark. People cannot gather without permission.). In kindergarten you're brainwashed. (Songs how good is communism. Apotheosis of soldiers.) In school you SHOULD join to the young equivalent of communist party. Poland was in "friendship" with Soviet Union - so everybody must learn russian since elementary school until you're end education. You CAN'T complain about the system ("Communism is the best system in the world.". Period.). What you think (or expect)? Maybe in SoA there will be some about communist countries? Leaks, anybody ;) ? |
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Jun 17 2005, 11:08 AM
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Loose Alliances. Grab it. Understand ahead of time the chapter on Commies is written by a spastic 12 year old -- be ready -- but grab it.
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Jun 17 2005, 11:12 AM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Take note that what you are referring to is not true communism, it is a twisted form of socialism approaching fascism. The closest we've come to communism in real life is Cuba and the first decade of Maoist China. Everything else has degenerated into nationalist or authoritarian socialist regimes posturing as ideological communists.
Neo-Communism and its two main factions "institutional communists" and "utopists" are outlined in Loose Alliances (which also specifies that Russia 206x is a nationalist/neo-fascist regime masquerading as a state communism - a parallel to Stalinist Russia). Shadows of Asia (as will eventually SoLA) will cover some communist regimes and nations (including true communists and those who pose as communists). Critias' evaluation is spot on. The voice used is grating and often irritating but he does cover the basics. |
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Jun 17 2005, 01:12 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Communism can't work in groups bigger than 1 person. Its human nature, we survived as a species by alternating between being greedy little bastards and helping each other out, but selfishness will always occur.
Other than that, Loose Alliances is you canon source and one stop shop for information. |
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Jun 17 2005, 01:46 PM
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, add a lot more channels but still one message and what do you have?
well i dont think it have gone that far just yet, or have it?
hmm, sounds kinda familiar in a way, dont know why tho...
and most capitalist contrys teach english from a early age...
one never knows when one get a visit from people in black suits... and yes, im being flipant :silly: thing is that the so called communist contrys where nothing more then dictatorships lead by people selected by people that again was selected by people selected by stalin. ie, the system was hijacked from allmost the start. i wonder tho if not something closer to the ideal would be factorys run by the workers, where every major change would be put up for vote among the workers. thing is that any system can be hijacked, its just a matter of getting the right people in the right places at the right time. so it cant be done by one man but it can be done by a group. but then one man can gain leadership of said group... |
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Jun 17 2005, 01:51 PM
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
yes, one help as long as it can benefit one self some other time (calling in favors and similar). in that respect i wonder if not gang-systems are the perfect example of human nature at its purest... |
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Jun 17 2005, 02:04 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Just read "The Lord of the Flies." It is about a group of school boys descent into savagery after being shipwrecked.
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Jun 17 2005, 02:23 PM
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
To be fair, some married couples make a good try of it. On, and privyette (sp?) mattress. I lived in Moscow from 86-89. A real trip, but it certainly ruined any faith in socialism. Hmm... I'm tempted to pick up Loose Alliances now. Never really cared about it before, but an SR game in a communist nation would be neat. |
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Jun 17 2005, 02:45 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
It works just fine on scales larger than that. It stops working when you put a gun to someones head and force them to be that way. For example, I used to play a MMORPG called A Tale in the Desert. Almost without exception, every single one of the guilds was a communist revival. Everyone put all their material possessions in communal storage facilities that were used to advance the guild as a whole. Everyone was expected to help out as much as they could, but you were never forced to work. It worked because if you didn't want to play that way, you could just go off and do your own thing. There are also numerous real life examples of it working out with the common demoninator being that you can opt out any time you want. Look up some of the wealth redistribution schemes of the Mormon church or how the Amish deal with insurance(They don't) or some of the Jewish communes in Israel. |
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Jun 17 2005, 05:14 PM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Good calls. I'd also mention several traditional Native American tribes which represented the closest to utopic communist societies we've seen. While African tribes have some communal traditions the power structures are too heirarchic to be considered communist. |
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Jun 17 2005, 05:16 PM
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#11
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Oh really? With us, it was mainly "friendship" with the USSR. I tell you, one hour of East German TV and you'd LOATHE the very word. :D Oh, and the Incas' political system was very close to communism. And they were quite a large and successful empire, until they crumbled because two sun kings were fighting over the throne, and the Spaniards invaded, all at once. And finally, propably the best working examples of true communism were the Kibbuzim in Israel. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 17 2005, 07:52 PM
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#12
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Guests |
LA lists five neo-communist countries.
Russia isn't one, but it is referred to elsewhere. |
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Jun 17 2005, 08:47 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
To be fair, one has to mention that capitalism isn't really working, either. I can't think of a single country that runs according to perfect capitalist ideals. If you look at the extent of corporate welfare in the world, you'll see that even the most gung ho of "capitalist" countries has on at least some level realized that the system just doesn't work. Here in the US, if we were running on a purely capitalist system, we wouldn't have bailed out the airlines after September 11th when they came whining for taxpayer money. Of course, then we'd have no airlines, and as super power with no airplanes, we'd be the laughing stock of the world, but you can't call it capitalism.
Even in SR, I don't see pure capitalism being implemented, because the megacorps will want some way to squeeze money out of people in addition to actually providing useful products or services, and if their subsidiaries are failing, they'll want some government around, even if its only function is to tax people and then bail out corporations with the proceeds. And it's hard for me to imagine any communist governments around in SR, because, well, we WERE trying to destroy communist countries during the cold war, and we were doing it for a reason. The megas would also try to destroy communist countries to open up new markets and teach existing governments that if you go around nationalizing things, the corps will mess you up. Communism in the 6th world might exist among certain cultures in places like Awakened Siberia, or one of those other parts of the world that have shunned what we think of as civilization, but as a government, I don't see it flying, because any place where people are using computers and cell phones, the corps are going to want to march in and give themselves monopolies on selling computers and cell phones. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 17 2005, 08:56 PM
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#14
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Guests |
ATSA is a blight on humanity. But no, the U.S. would still have a metric fuckton of airlines--even international ones. If United Airlines has taught people anything, it's that operating in bankruptcy for four years is pretty beneficial to stockholders (more customers because of lower rates, employees took pay cuts, the U.S. is now paying their employees' pensions, and so on.). Filing for bankruptcy was probably the smartest move UA made since deregulation. So, no, it delayed the inevitable that would have happened had 9/11 not occurred, but it wouldn't have wiped out the airline industry by any stretch. But... going back to neo-communism. Just because they call themselves communist doesn't mean jack. Look at Cuba in Cyberpirates!. They call themselves Neo-Communists, but in reality they're just Bautista-like corporate tools. |
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Jun 17 2005, 09:11 PM
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#15
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Guess 'you' failed. Newsflash: there still is a North Korea, China, Cuba, and communist parties play an important role in all post-soviet states. Besides, in SR, 'you' have ceased to exist, so ... there.
The megas aren't all-powerful. Besides, if they get their free trade zones, they are happy to exploit hardly paid commie workers, too. They may *want* to change things, but wishing and getting are two entirely different things. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jun 17 2005, 09:27 PM
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#16
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Guests |
Yes, but in SR North Korea and China have also disappeared, and Cuba ain't Castro's Cuba.
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Jun 17 2005, 09:39 PM
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#17
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Sure, but that doesn't mean communism as an ideology has lost it's appeal. If anything, it will gain, due to the immense gap between haves and have-nots, the rampant corruption, the exploitation of people by the corps ... it's the 1890s all over again, in many ways.
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Jun 17 2005, 09:39 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
This is a fallacy. Existence of corporate welfare doesn't imply that capitalism doesn't work. The abundance of subventions even in gung-ho capitalist countries is a byproduct of how democracy and lobbies intertwine, not capitalism's supposed flaws. --- Outside of neo-communist countries, most runner involvement with NC should be with policlub. A reborn international communist movement in the fringe of capitalist countries could be neat. Anything about that in Loose Alliance? |
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Jun 17 2005, 09:52 PM
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#19
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Capitalism, as a pure ideology, doesn't fly. The combination of capitalism and some socialist ideas that is the Western model (yes, even the US' system has socialist elements) is what makes a market-based economy work best.
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Jun 17 2005, 10:08 PM
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#20
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
For a small minority maybe. The rest of the people are going to be looking for the inside track on how to to get out of their situation and become one of the haves, fuck everyone else. Dystopian baby! :) |
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Jun 17 2005, 10:40 PM
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#21
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Eh ... I doupt that. I mean, how much chances do SINles people have of making it? Without becoming criminals? And how many are SINless ... 15% of the total population? That's not a tiny segment ...
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Jun 17 2005, 10:51 PM
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#22
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
I meant only a small part of the have nots are going to become pinko commie bastards. The rest, they'll deal drugs, steal and rob, run the shadows, sell their bodies, sell other people's bodies etc. to move up the ladder as best they can and sod the other guy. Becoming one of the haves doesn't have to take place within the law, it's probably easier outside it. Which sounds suspiciously like the Redmond Barrens wouldn't you say? :)
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Jun 17 2005, 10:58 PM
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#23
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The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
I dunno ... there's a lot of apathy there, too. All it needs is some sort of leader figure.
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Jun 17 2005, 11:58 PM
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#24
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the funny thing is that in many ways a corporate enclave looks very similar to a soviet style communist state. you live in corp housing, you eat corp food, you work for mother corp :P
as for the people in the barrens, they will most likely do whatever it takes to survive. some (mostly the young and single) will do all kinds of crime, alone or in groups (similar to how young people with no future today join gangs and deal drugs ++ ). the older and those with family however will most likely band together to asist each other. most likely these groups will form based on communist/socialist ideas (ie what is mine is yours). |
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Jun 18 2005, 12:02 AM
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#25
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
like say torgo? |
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