Compromise, An attempt to find common ground Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Outline Switch to: Standard Switch to: Linear+

[NightmareX]

Well I'm very serious about it too. So can we put together our common complaints about 4th edition and start from there? See if we can create solutions that are generally appealing to both new and old communities.

* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment
* Technomancers
* Character creation
* Shadowslang
* Too much Wi-Fi
* better Vehicle integration

Please add or subtract from this list as you see fit.

Initially I would say my biggest issues are as follows:

Things that can be easily solved
* Lack of clarification/information on the world setting (which includes NAN and Tir treatment)
* Lack of shadowslang
* Cyberware as passe (not acceptable - this is a cyberpunk game)

Things that can kinda be solved
* WiFi inanity (to put it succinctly, why is there a computer in everything including my underwear? Why can the hacker take control of my cyberarm, and why does my non-smartlinked gun have a computer that can shut it down in it?)
* Vehicle integration (it would help - we don't even use Maneuver score)
* Edge (in that to kill anyone you essentially have to kill them a number of times equal to their edge score)

Things that can't easily be solved
* Technomancers (in the manner that they essentially are magical by the powers and fluff, and in the sense that they are somewhat overpowered)
* AI proliferation (why is every frikkin program waking up as an AI?)
* Dead plotlines
* Dead NPCs/institutions (ie Shadowland)

I don't have a major problem with character creation in this system, as noted.

Thoughts anyone?

Edited to add - This thread is not intended as yet another bitch session about 4th edition. It is not meant to tell people they are GMing or playing the game wrong, or to just say GM fiat or house rule everything. None of that is productive.

What this thread is intended for is to bring together the problems people have with 4th edition with an eye toward finding ways to work through them - whether that means correcting misconceptions, finding and addressing real problems, or whatever else between those extremes - with hope that Catalyst may take some notice in regards to future development so the maximum number of SR fans can enjoy at least part of SR4. Note I say future, because IMO invalidating existing SR4 material is unacceptable. We cannot however control what Catalyst does, but it is my hope that in coming to some sort of compromise on the issues brought up in this thread we can at least mute the continual flame wars over the subject here. I am, of course, not optimistic about that.

[hermit]

When you waltz into a city, wreaking havoc, not being protected by tons of Force12 spirits and doing all kinds of similarly stupid things, someone should just take you out with a couple of well-placed heavy gauss gun shots.

Lofwyr had interceptor helicopters at the ready (and god knows what else) in FFM, and Ghostwalker had an infinite number of allied spirits when he trampled Denver.

* NAN treatment
* Tir treatment

First and foremost, don't do more damage than has already been done. Keep Tir na nOg much like it was - it propably won't have wifi all over anyway, being technophobic as it is), let it keep it's veil and seeolie court and basically be a setting for people who like mystical elf stuff. Also, have the NAN remain native-themed (except for Pueblo, which now apparently is a Horizon subsidiary). Tone down Horizon's power, it's gotten laughable. And don't shove down AIs and all the other k3wl stuff every setting's throat. Have SR remain a system where there's something for everybody, not a setting essentially for Matrix fanboys.

* Technomancers

Errata the new echos so that they're somewhere near balanced. Don't overstress their importance anymore; they're not the core piece of SR and will never be so long as it remains a hint of it's original flair. Everyone who wants an RPG centering around "the One" can go and buy the Matric RPG, they don't need to play Shadowrun for that.

* Character creation

Actually, RC fixed that. Karmagen's a dream.

* Shadowslang

I don't need hoop, frag and drek to return much, myself, but could you please stop trying to pretend 4chan is the main influence on SR slang? It's so damn dorky.

* Too much Wi-Fi

Just keep it realistic. And try to think of a reason why the SR4 cities aren't facing EMP and explosion doom from huge swarms of amok thunderbirds (the critter). One that's remotely convincing, in in-game terms.

* better Vehicle integration

I don't really see the problem there, myself.

What I'd like to see solved:

- More continuity with previous stuff. Maybe drop in familiar shadowtalkers, maybe you could leave some settings relatively unchanged, maybe also bring back old equipment (especially vehicles) ...

- don't go too far into transhumanism. AIs cannot just be accepted in SR, not after how they've been used before.

- TUNE DOWN HORIZON, it's gotten far, far too ridiculuos. And don't use the word media blitz anymore. It sounds stupid and makes me think of Will Smith and his flashy thing. Sorry, my disbelief cannot be suspended that much.

- on a related note, don't borrow slang from 4chan too often. What you borrowed is dated when the book actually ships anyway.

[NightmareX]

First and foremost, don't do more damage than has already been done. Keep Tir na nOg much like it was - it propably won't have wifi all over anyway, being technophobic as it is), let it keep it's veil and seeolie court and basically be a setting for people who like mystical elf stuff. Also, have the NAN remain native-themed (except for Pueblo, which now apparently is a Horizon subsidiary).

It would be nice to have Tir na nOg a tiny tad more accessible, but definitely agreed.

And don't shove down AIs and all the other k3wl stuff every setting's throat. Have SR remain a system where there's something for everybody, not a setting essentially for Matrix fanboys.

Errata the new echos so that they're somewhere near balanced. Don't overstress their importance anymore;

Agreed.

What I'd like to see solved:

- More continuity with previous stuff. Maybe drop in familiar shadowtalkers, maybe you could leave some settings relatively unchanged, maybe also bring back old equipment (especially vehicles) ...

- don't go too far into transhumanism. AIs cannot just be accepted in SR, not after how they've been used before.

- TUNE DOWN HORIZON, it's gotten far, far too ridiculuos. And don't use the word media blitz anymore. It sounds stupid and makes me think of Will Smith and his flashy thing. Sorry, my disbelief cannot be suspended that much.

Agreed on all points (not as...adamant...about Horizon, but agreed). As for 4chan, you lost me - no clue what it is save for some anime/manga.

A lot of the complaint seems to stem from whether you want the classic "80s future" or the newer 2070 vision which is more in keeping with the direction technology is heading.

I would like to see a middle ground between the two myself.

The most important thing, regardless of system change, license holding, etc. is that Shadowrun is still going in some form.

Definitely agreed.

Now let's get back to the important stuff.... like trying to figure out how to make the "Burned Out Technomancer" archetype.

That's the point of this exercise and thread - to bring some measure of peace to the divided between 3rd'ers and 4th'ers. Hopefully the writers and devs will take some inspiration from this as well, but that is beyond our control. All we can control is what plays out on these boards.