The blind mage, A problem with targeting? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Outline Switch to: Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Karoline]

So, I've seen it come up a couple times before, and was having trouble finding a thread on it (I'm sure there has been), so I figured I'd make a new thread to ask:

Can a blind mage target anything on the physical plane without touching it?

Now, it seems like most people accept that a blind mage can target the physical plane without trouble while astrally perceiving. The problem I have with that is that an aura cannot be used to target something, and there is never anything which states that astral can target a spot on the physical plane by saying 'that spot right there but on the physical plane'.

The closest I can find is

An astrally perceiving
(or otherwise dual natured) magician can cast spells on a
target in either the physical world or in astral space.

but it doesn't specify that you can use astral sight to target something, simply that it is possible to cast a physical spell while perceiving, which can be done via touch spells, or in the case of duel natured creatures, by viewing through their physical senses.

So, is there anything more concrete that says you can in fact use astral sight to target a spell on the physical plane?

[Yerameyahu]

Let's not even talk about glasses again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still think the question is ambiguous, and requires stonger support than, 'we've always made this mistake in the past, so it must still be right'.

While Blindness (btw, is the -6 Blind fire mod really relevant to Blind re: a mage's LOS *requirement*?) is the topic here, we're really talking about the more general issue of, 'can Astral Sight substitute for Physical LOS?' Can it be used to aim guns as well? If there's thermal smoke, can Astral Sight substitute there, too? I was under the impression that the only thing you can target while astral *projecting* (by aura) is a manabolt, etc., so I'm confused that I'm hearing you can target everything astrally. Is this a difference between projection and perception?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Let's not even talk about glasses again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I still think the question is ambiguous, and requires stonger support than, 'we've always made this mistake in the past, so it must still be right'.

While Blindness (btw, is the -6 Blind fire mod really relevant to Blind re: a mage's LOS *requirement*?) is the topic here, we're really talking about the more general issue of, 'can Astral Sight substitute for Physical LOS?' Can it be used to aim guns as well? If there's thermal smoke, can Astral Sight substitute there, too? I was under the impression that the only thing you can target while astral *projecting* (by aura) is a manabolt, etc., so I'm confused that I'm hearing you can target everything astrally. Is this a difference between projection and perception?

Astral Perception can indeed be used to aim guns, but you take a -2 to the action... Page 191 of the SR4A...

You can perform physical actions (like driving) while using astral perception, so you do indeed perceive the physical world, through their astral shadows, using this ability... as such, you can drive, fire a gun, and any other physical actions that you desire to de... you can ALSO perform magical actions in physical space using Astral Perception, and ou do not suffer the p[enalties as it is a magical action... this would include spellcasting (If you can shoot a person with a gun, or attack them with a sword, using your astral perception, you can cast a spell at them as well... obviously Astral Perception allows targeting physical objects, or the physical actions would be impossible all together)...

I think that a lot of people confuse Astral Perception with Assensing... they are not the same thing whatsoever... Astral Perception gives you a psychic sense for the things around you, good enough to interact with them magically at no penalty and you only suffer a -2 penalty if you are taking purely physical actions... I do not see how you can argue against that... like I said earlier, it is pretty cut and dried...

now, you will suffer visibility modifiers on the Astral as well... that thermal smoke has an astral presence (its shadow) so it would apply its penalty to someone using astral perception... Ironically, Darkness modifiers do not apply as there is no "Physical" representation of Darkness, it is just an absense of light (so no astral shadow per se), which, when viewed with Astral Perception, no longer applies, though other modifiers could apply...

Now, when you project, you move from the Physical plane to the Astral Plane completely... you no longer have a connection to the Physical, so you can no longer affect the physical plane at all... you can only use mana based spells only (No Physical based ones), and only to affect astral forms (which would include Dual Natured beings and those who are astrally perceiving, as they exist on both planes simultaneously)...

So there really is no disconnect here... You can use Astral perception to target things on the physical, as long as you are on the physical as well (Perceiving and not Projecting)...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

(If you can shoot a person with a gun, or attack them with a sword, using your astral perception, you can cast a spell at them as well... obviously Astral Perception allows targeting physical objects, or the physical actions would be impossible all together)

That seems like a horrid analogy. You can fire a gun at something, thus you can cast a spell at them? To fire a gun you just need to point in the right direction and bang, you shoot them. You can use a computer to aim and fire a gun, but you cannot use a computer to target a spell, so your analogy obviously falls through very quickly.

Yes, you can tell that someone or something is in a particular place, and thus you can make physical actions towards those things. In order to cast a spell however, you must be able to see what you are targeting, and while viewing things astrally you don't see anything on the physical plane, you see an astral shadow of it on the astral plane. So, firing a gun works because you can go 'I want to shoot at something at roughly that spot', but casting a spell doesn't because you can't go 'I want to target that spot but on the physical plane' because you must see something to target it, and you cannot see the physical plane. It'd be like targeting someone through their shadow. You know they are there, that they are connected to their shadow, but you still can't target them with a spell, because you can't see the actual target.

As for blind being a -6 penalty, should point out that total darkness is also only a -6 penalty, and in that case it is physically impossible to see anything as well. I'm not sure why exactly the devs simply imposed a -6 penalty as opposed to making it impossible to see something when you are blind (I'm supposing that the quality refers to actually blind as opposed to 'legally' blind). This means it is technically possible though difficult for a blind mage to target stuff with their natural LoS (despite being blind), but they would need a perception check (at -6) to locate the target in the first place, and then casting the spell would also be at a -6. Seems a little 'cheap' to me, though the penalties are hefty, it doesn't exactly make the character all that blind. That's more like 'needs to wear glasses'.

edit

Not quite the same thing. A blind mage using Astral Perception still has a physical component which is why he could (IMO) target something on the physical plane.

You're very right, they can target something on the physical plane, but the problem is that the distinction is never made of what form of targeting, because a target can be acquired through touch as well. It says they can cast a physical spell at a target, but never that a target can (or can't) be obtained through astral sight.

P.S. I think indirect physical combat spells might work, as those don't require a target, simply that the mage form up the spell and throw it in some direction, as opposed to causing an affect at a particular point (like powerbolt for instance). I'll have to look that up a bit more.