So, I've seen it come up a couple times before, and was having trouble finding a thread on it (I'm sure there has been), so I figured I'd make a new thread to ask:

Can a blind mage target anything on the physical plane without touching it?

Now, it seems like most people accept that a blind mage can target the physical plane without trouble while astrally perceiving. The problem I have with that is that an aura cannot be used to target something, and there is never anything which states that astral can target a spot on the physical plane by saying 'that spot right there but on the physical plane'.

The closest I can find is but it doesn't specify that you can use astral sight to target something, simply that it is possible to cast a physical spell while perceiving, which can be done via touch spells, or in the case of duel natured creatures, by viewing through their physical senses.

So, is there anything more concrete that says you can in fact use astral sight to target a spell on the physical plane?

I've always thought that was one of the textbook newbie errors. I know I tried it in SR3, then felt really silly; basically, we were saying you could ignore all LOS by simply using psychic radar.

May be a bit cruel: But no, i don't think he can. That is why blind is an awesome, but heavy disadvantage for mages. But what you could do is making all buffs and illusions personal or touch and use only physical indirect spells for attacking. Just aim with astral sight with -2 and shoot on the physical space. All you lose are the direct combat spells.

Also "blind mage" is always a nice character.

If you are casting a spell on the physical plane while using Astral Perception, you are indeed targeting that target with the Astral Perception... it is even in the quote you put up...



Seems pretty cut and dried to me... a note though... you cannot ignore intervening barriers while using astral perception... if a person is behind a wall, astral perception will only give you the wall, not the person behind it; at which point you will not be able to cast that spell at that person......

Keep the Faith

A blind mage will not be able to cast LOS spells on the physical plane. While it is true you can cast spells on either plan while astrally perceiving, you still need to target the spell, and since an astrally perceiving mage cannot see the physical plane, no can target. Naturally Dual Natured critters see both planes at once if I am correct.

Please see the quote above... the rules do not agree with you... The biggest reinforcement of that is the Ghoul Mage... he is blind, uses Astral Perception to target his spells and is capable of casting spell on the Physical Plane against physical targets... Pretty cut and dried I would think...

Keep the Faith

Spellcasting using Astral Perception does not take a negative penalty (at least for the Astrally Perceiving)... only non-magical actions receive the penalty...

Keep the faith

I think the quote at issue here remains ambiguous. It's saying that you can either cast astral or physical, but it's not specifying if it matters if it's (astral sight = astral cast) and (physical sight = physical cast).

Not really. It says that you can cast a physical spell at a target, it does not say that astral sight can establish a target via LoS. As I said in my OP, you can still cast a physical spell at a target via touch, which could be why the book says what it does. The quote says nothing at all about how a target is chosen or acquired.


So, this is one of the big defenses I keep hearing, but where in the rules does it say "A ghoul mage can use his astral sight to cast physical spells at range."?

I guess I've never really read that closely to the 4e section on that, but ever since 2e its been my understanding (don't ask for a specific page reference or rule, because I couldn't give it to you), that Astrally Perceiving Mages could target people/creatures in the physical world just fine.

I even remember that after running the adventure Universal Brotherhood I had an Insect Shaman use some of the characters spilled blood to do a ritual and track them back to their hideout with a nasty Insect Spirit in tow. The Insect Spirit waited in Astral while the Insect Shamans first move was to cast Blindness on the teams Gargoyle Shaman. Of course the Gargoyle Shaman initially thought it was just a temporary annoyance and switched to Astral Perception where he immediately discovered the nasty Insect Spirit waiting for him. Most of my enjoyment as a GM comes from episodes like this where I get PCs to take the bait just so I can reel 'em in hook, line and sinker.

If I thought allowing a Mage to target people in the physical plane while using Astral Perception was open to abuse some how, then I might have issue with it, but so far I've never had a problem.

Does having Blind/Reduced Sight mean that you cannot physically see a target at all?

I think the idea is that you're channeling the mana to a location, not a person per se. Its just coincidence that there is a person standing there.

If you can't do that, then what's the point of making some spells work only in the real world while others don't. Basically, if I'm dual natured, and I cast fireball, it can ONLY hit dual natured critters. It can't start fires, like it says it can, it can't hit spirits or astral projecting mages, so basically there is no way you can REALLY cast fireball if you're blind.

While it does make some sense, I'd say because you're dual nature while astrally perceiving that you can channel mana on both the physical and the astral.

But of course, if there is something in the astral that breaks your line of sight, like a mysterious mountain or whatever, that only exists in the astral, you clearly can't hit the mobster in the physical that doesn't even perceive that there is a mountain that he is standing in. If that' makes sense.

Basically, you can only channel mana to locations you can see. And because you can't see through walls, it means everything in the real world that would normally break line of sight, still does break LoS in the Astral (no psychic radar). And in the case of glass or astral phenomena (like Alchera) things that wouldn't break LoS in the physical would can still break LoS in Astral.



That's true, you (only?) take a -6 targetting modifier if you wanted to try and make a blind shot.


While on the topic of blind awaken characters, while astral perception can't see through glass, I was wondering if the blind character is wearing glasses would that make them blind in the astral? My concept would be that blind mages aren't really using their eyes, its more of a 6th sense thing, so it wouldn't matter. But if that's the case too, if they wear any helmet that would theoretically blind them because they couldn't use their "minds eye" to see the astral. Maybe I'm over thinking this too much...

I can't really offer any stronger argument than Tymeaus but I'll just say that I agree with him. Astral sight lets you perceive other beings. If you can perceive other beings you can cast spells at them. At least by the rules. But a strong fluff case can be made that this shouldn't be the actual rules.

I've mixed feelings on it. Although I agree by the rules that you should be able to use purely Astral vision for LOS in the physical world, the fun possibilities of a blind magician being limited in this way are quite tempting. Touch spells are extremely deadly given their spectacularly low drain. A ghoul magician using the Punch spell would be pretty awesome. (Not that anyone wants to get into close combat with a ghoul anyway, mind you. ).

This has never come up directly, though I have allowed magicians to use Astral sight to target someone in the dark which is the same principle. I might consider house-ruling this.

K.

Tymeaus is right.
As soon as the Blind mage switches to Astral sight he becomes a Dual being. Than he can cast Spells to both Planes (Manaspells on the Astral and Physical or Manaspells on the Physical Plane)
and Astral sight is totally valid for establishing a Target

with a Dual Dance
Medicineman

Karoline, I get your opinion semantically but this wouldn't be much fun. It is just like saying No spirit can enter the physical plane. This too is absolutely correct by RAW (Physical Powers can't be used on the Astral Plane) but it is neither RAI nor much fun.

I may be misunderstanding most of your arguements, but I have to go with Karoline on this one. If you are blind and astrally percieving you see auras not actual people. So the auras are what you can target with direct spells. Which opens up another can of worms by basically ruling that mages and spirits can wtfpwn someone from the astral plane without any fear.

No you can't. With normal, unawakened people there is nearly no connection between their aura and their body. The aura just "represents" the people. It's a mirror-image of them on another place. Only if you are dual natured or astral active you are truly split between physical and astral. And yes, than you can get blown to pieces by attacking your aura. That is how i always thought it would and should be.

Just like i always thought "regeneration" works with rebuilding your body out of your astral shadow. Which means that you can regenerate everything but drain damage and fatigue (and since 4th edition magical damage). This is one of a few real connections between aura and body.

To sum up: you cannot damage people by targeting their aura, nor blasting their aura by targeting the body. but you can AIM at their body with seeing their aura: but only with strictly physical spells on the physical realm. So no direct combat spells.

No. You can't target a plane you're not present on. That's clearly stated in the rules. If you're dual natured, you can target either. If you're astral only, you can target the astral only and if you're physical only, you can target the physical only. It doesn't matter if you can perceive the other plane if you're not present there.

What we have is a situation where the rules say one thing, but a popular interpretation of the fluff (you're only seeing auras so you can't use only these to target a body on the physical plane) doesn't fit with that. However, I don't see that this fluff interpretation is required. If you're on the physical plane, then you're on the right plane to affect physical bodies. Maybe you can direct the spell energy at those physical bodies by knowing where their aura is. It needn't be a problem.

K.

Hi guys, first post, just bought SR4A a week ago, and have been lurking here a bit, but I feel I must come out of hiding for this one.

I am reminded of a quote from the Matrix in which Morpheus asks Neo, "Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place?"

While astrally perceiving, you aren't using your physical sight; your eyeballs have nothing to do with it. Therefore, if a sighted mage can target things on the physical plane while astrally perceiving, so can a blind mage.

Back to lurking! Cheers!

Sorry, that won't work. In order to affect a purely Physical Plane target (despite any astral impression it might leave from being alive), you need a physical plane component.

A purely Astral Spirit cannot affect a Physical Plane Target from the Astral. The Spirit would have to Materialize and then use its powers. Now it could continue sustaining that power (if the power supported it) from the Astral. An example of that would be Guard.

But to cast a spell at a Physical Target requires the caster to have a Physical component. Being Blind and using Astral Perception (It's NOT ASTRAL SIGHT!!!) meets that requirement. Astral Perception gives the necessary connection to the target and existing on the Physical establishes the other requirement. Thus the spell can be cast.

Using Astral Perception has *always* been permissible for targeting of spells despite vision issues on the part of the caster. This was true all the way back to SR1.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

Where, anywhere in the entire series of 4e books, does it say "Astral sight can be used to target physical spells."? The only thing I've found is a statement that while astrally perceiving you can cast physical spells at a target but the book never makes mention of if an aura can be used to target something (Except that it is not sufficient to effect anything from the astral plane).

So, please don't claim that the rules say you can use astral sight to target physical spells until you can provide a quote and page reference that states that specifically.

So far I've not heard anyone supporting physical spells targeted with astral sight pull out any rules references. Until then, it remains an interpretation of the rules based on if you can target things by going 'That spot, but on the physical plane instead of the astral plane' which seems unlikely, because in order to target something, you must see it, and with astral sight, you don't actually see anything on the physical plane, just shadows of it.

The sighted mage can target things on the physical and astral plane because he can see both planes. The blind mage cannot and therefore should not be able to do so. Maybe I didn't express that opinion well in my first post but that's what I meant.

If you say the blind mage can target people on the physical plane while he is only able to see their auras on the astral plane, you are also saying that an astral entity can target something on the physical plane, because it's the same thing.

Even if they are astrally percieving they have to deal with the astral vision modifiers on pg 114 of Street Magic.

Let's not even talk about glasses again.

I still think the question is ambiguous, and requires stonger support than, 'we've always made this mistake in the past, so it must still be right'.

While Blindness (btw, is the -6 Blind fire mod really relevant to Blind re: a mage's LOS *requirement*?) is the topic here, we're really talking about the more general issue of, 'can Astral Sight substitute for Physical LOS?' Can it be used to aim guns as well? If there's thermal smoke, can Astral Sight substitute there, too? I was under the impression that the only thing you can target while astral *projecting* (by aura) is a manabolt, etc., so I'm confused that I'm hearing you can target everything astrally. Is this a difference between projection and perception?

Astral Perception can indeed be used to aim guns, but you take a -2 to the action... Page 191 of the SR4A...

You can perform physical actions (like driving) while using astral perception, so you do indeed perceive the physical world, through their astral shadows, using this ability... as such, you can drive, fire a gun, and any other physical actions that you desire to de... you can ALSO perform magical actions in physical space using Astral Perception, and ou do not suffer the p[enalties as it is a magical action... this would include spellcasting (If you can shoot a person with a gun, or attack them with a sword, using your astral perception, you can cast a spell at them as well... obviously Astral Perception allows targeting physical objects, or the physical actions would be impossible all together)...

I think that a lot of people confuse Astral Perception with Assensing... they are not the same thing whatsoever... Astral Perception gives you a psychic sense for the things around you, good enough to interact with them magically at no penalty and you only suffer a -2 penalty if you are taking purely physical actions... I do not see how you can argue against that... like I said earlier, it is pretty cut and dried...

now, you will suffer visibility modifiers on the Astral as well... that thermal smoke has an astral presence (its shadow) so it would apply its penalty to someone using astral perception... Ironically, Darkness modifiers do not apply as there is no "Physical" representation of Darkness, it is just an absense of light (so no astral shadow per se), which, when viewed with Astral Perception, no longer applies, though other modifiers could apply...

Now, when you project, you move from the Physical plane to the Astral Plane completely... you no longer have a connection to the Physical, so you can no longer affect the physical plane at all... you can only use mana based spells only (No Physical based ones), and only to affect astral forms (which would include Dual Natured beings and those who are astrally perceiving, as they exist on both planes simultaneously)...

So there really is no disconnect here... You can use Astral perception to target things on the physical, as long as you are on the physical as well (Perceiving and not Projecting)...

Keep the Faith

Not quite the same thing. A blind mage using Astral Perception still has a physical component which is why he could (IMO) target something on the physical plane. An Astral Entity (i.e. existing solely on the Astral Plane) or a mage using Astral Projection have no physical component and therefore could not target something on the physical plane.



The reason I have always allowed a mage (blind or not) to target things on the physical plane while using Astral Perception is threefold. One, that has always been my understanding of the rules. Two, I have never seen it abused so I see no reason not to allow it. And three, it opens the Astrally Perceiving mage up to attacks from the Astral Plane which can be quite a deterrent to using it often and is a simple balance.

So. Astral Sight amounts to a replacement for all forms of vision at a -2 penalty? That's the same as any Partial Light, for example, so there's no reason to ever get them for a Mage. I'm not saying that's a problem, I just never understood it in that way. Interesting. Blind should have a reduced BP bonus for anyone who can perceive Astrally, in the same way that taking Neuro Fully Reduced Taste is suggested as GM-nerfed.

What about Dual-Natured beings? A drake gets a bunch of heightened visions, but obviously doesn't need them.

That seems like a horrid analogy. You can fire a gun at something, thus you can cast a spell at them? To fire a gun you just need to point in the right direction and bang, you shoot them. You can use a computer to aim and fire a gun, but you cannot use a computer to target a spell, so your analogy obviously falls through very quickly.

Yes, you can tell that someone or something is in a particular place, and thus you can make physical actions towards those things. In order to cast a spell however, you must be able to see what you are targeting, and while viewing things astrally you don't see anything on the physical plane, you see an astral shadow of it on the astral plane. So, firing a gun works because you can go 'I want to shoot at something at roughly that spot', but casting a spell doesn't because you can't go 'I want to target that spot but on the physical plane' because you must see something to target it, and you cannot see the physical plane. It'd be like targeting someone through their shadow. You know they are there, that they are connected to their shadow, but you still can't target them with a spell, because you can't see the actual target.

As for blind being a -6 penalty, should point out that total darkness is also only a -6 penalty, and in that case it is physically impossible to see anything as well. I'm not sure why exactly the devs simply imposed a -6 penalty as opposed to making it impossible to see something when you are blind (I'm supposing that the quality refers to actually blind as opposed to 'legally' blind). This means it is technically possible though difficult for a blind mage to target stuff with their natural LoS (despite being blind), but they would need a perception check (at -6) to locate the target in the first place, and then casting the spell would also be at a -6. Seems a little 'cheap' to me, though the penalties are hefty, it doesn't exactly make the character all that blind. That's more like 'needs to wear glasses'.

edit


You're very right, they can target something on the physical plane, but the problem is that the distinction is never made of what form of targeting, because a target can be acquired through touch as well. It says they can cast a physical spell at a target, but never that a target can (or can't) be obtained through astral sight.

P.S. I think indirect physical combat spells might work, as those don't require a target, simply that the mage form up the spell and throw it in some direction, as opposed to causing an affect at a particular point (like powerbolt for instance). I'll have to look that up a bit more.

- Shooting at someone while astraly perceiving is a -2 (may require assensing test if you wanted?). mundane actions are specifically addressed.

- Targeting the physical plane while astrally perceiving is addressed. so touch spells, yes, area spells, yes.

-I think disallowing the targeting of a person would be strange and specifically mentioned. but I have no book quote for you.

- here is a strange leap of logic, your aura is a reflection of you on the astral, you can target people's reflections in the physical world. If I have to make the call, I'd say its doable

I can see that we are not going to agree here, and that is okay... the rules allow it, and I have pointed them out to you... The drawbacks of using Astral Perception to target physical actions (whether actual physical actions or magical actions) exist, and I have never seen it abused as you claim it is... opening yourself up to the Astral is dangerous, especially if you are in a fight for your life, but it may be the only viable course of action there is...

Go with what you like...

Keep the Faith

An interpretation of the rules allow it, yes, if you assume 'can cast physical spells at a target' to mean 'can use astral sight to target something on the physical plane'. And, I've never said that it was abused, just that I believed people were doing it wrong from what the rules actually say, though they are admittedly vague as they don't come out and say one way or the other that you can or cannot use astral sight to target a physical spell. I've explained why I think you cannot: Because you must see a target to cast at it, and using astral sight you do not see anything on the physical plane, you see an astral representation of that thing, which is well known to be unsuitable for using magic on.

If your quote from the rules in the OP is complete, then I don't see the limiting qualifier "physical" anywhere. It just says "can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space". Is there some additional rule or place where "physical" is used as limiting factor?

From AngelisStorm in another Topic...



My guess is that this came from the FAQ... Not sure though...

EDIT: Indeed it is... In the Spellcasting Section...
Keep the Faith

The point is that that quote is ambiguous.

Hmm. I really wonder what kind of numbers should be involved for casting a spell by smell, etc. :/ Sounds tricky.

Funny... I have never considered it as such myself... I would say, rather, that it is ambiguous to some individuals...
Different can of worms entirely... I have always interpreted that "Astral Perception" allowed casting both in the Physical plane and the Astral plane... andd the quote from the book supports that (it is very plain in its reading... go back and look and you will see that)... when you try to read more into the statement than is there, then it becomes ambiguous... Since you already know that you cannot have spells cross planes, that argument is null and void... Astrally Perceiving creatures can affect both planes of existence, A non-perceiving Mage can only affect the Physical, and the Projecting Mage can only affect the Astral... Astral Perception is a means of obtaining effect... that is really all it is... all it ever was in fact...

ASSENSING, on the other hand is something entirely different, with different mechanics, and is what I believe that most people confuse the issue with...

Keep the Faith

It's not ambiguous until you add the blind quality. A normal astrally percieving mage can target someone while astrally percieving because he can still see the physical plane. A blind mage cannot see the physical plane.

What is the point of the magemask then? It breaks a mages ability to see and therefore target. It also distracts them, but that's not here nor there. If a mage cannot see something they cannot visually target it, which is what is being argued and is a cheap workaround of a negative quality.

No, I mean that the quote, in and of itself, is ambiguous. I don't mean that the entire question, including various other quotes, is ambiguous.

There are a couple of sections in the description of Astral Perception on page 191 of SR4A which this position (held by others as well as TJ, just using his quote as the example) does not address.

(emphasis mine)



The only 'cut and dried' references I find are those that say you can't see or be in two places at the same time. The options provided in the FAQ for using other senses than sight for LOS are all physical senses that work in physical space.

EDIT: As an aside, the act of shifting preception from astral to physical takes a Simple Action and prevents the Complex Action of Spellcasting in the same action phase.

I'll state the same thing here that I stated in a Counterspelling thread.

In Street Magic, page 160 (this is the spell design section under range: LoS)
A magician can target what he can see or assense.

No he can't, as noted above by pbangarth. Dual-natured critters such as dragons can sense both planes at once (SR4A p. 294), but for a mage it's either one plane or the other.

Yes he can, becasue the book says that they can do so on page 191 of the core book...

Here is the quote again:



Keep the Faith

A mage mask places a barrier through which the Mage so encumbered cannot see/perceive through... It still has a barrier that extends to his astral perception... which is why you can no longer cast spells...

As far as a cheap workaround, I disagree... it has consequences if you use it... sometimes very deadly consequences... and you could get around the quality quite easily with technological means (with an UltraWideband Radar System for example) if you really wanted to do so... so it is really not all that big of deal...

Keep the Faith

It's cheap because it's an inate ability of the character, they lose niether money or essense for the ability to astrally percieve. It has consequences sure but it's the same for all mages.

And I say again... So what? The technological solution does not open you up to attack from Astral Space and still costs no essence (if you are using it only to perceive the world around you, such as it is) or a minimal amount of essence otherwise... as such I do not see it as a real problem. The dangers far outweigh the benefits, you will most likely not travel around with Astral Perception constantly activated... it will get you dead pretty fast... just ask any other Dual Natured creature how much it sucks to be attacked in Astral space and have nothing that you can do about it... Of course, you could always turn it off, unlike true Dual natured Creatures, but still...

Just Sayin'

keep the Faith

I think we are arguing the same thing here. The rules you quoted talk about casting spells. Yes, a mage using astral perception can target things on the physical or astral with spells. He cannot see (with his eyeballs) the physical world while astrally perceiving, which is why whether or not he is physically blind is irrelevant.

Peace be upon you, sir.

Indeed, Sorry...

Keep the Faith

Personally, I'd love to see someone fire a gun and hit without LOS.

Can happen, though it is generally a "Luck" thing... unless you have been trained to do so... our Machine Gun teams in the Corps (Echo COmpany 2nd Batallion 7th Marines) often trained in this technique, and they were surprisingly accurate, as long as they had good spotters... In fact, Most, if not all, indirect fire lacks that necessary LOS, and yet indirect fire can be exceedingly accurate, at least in the American Military anyways (as long as your teams are trained well anyways)...

Keep the Faith

Anyone else here think its contradictory that under Astral Perception it says that mages can't view both planes at the same time and under Dual Natured it says they can view both planes at the same time? Especially considering that an Astrally Perceiving mage specifically becomes dual-natured . Honestly, the rules aren't particularly vague on this main issue though. A mage may target a physical person while astrally perceiving. This is because you may target to either plane while dual-natured, regardless of which plane you are viewing. An astrally perceiving mage may also cast LOS spells to the physical plane while perceiving, as per page 160 of Street Magic where it says

This was mentioned by jimbo above but it seems to have been ignored so I've said it again. For those worried about mages sniping from the astral because of this, don't be. As long as the mage remains purely astral he cannot effect the physical world, as specifically stated again on page 160 of street magic as one of the things magic can never do.

p. 183 Choose the Target

"The act of choosing a target establishes a mystic link between
caster and target. It is through this “targeting link” which the mana
of a spell construct is channeled to produce a spell effect. Under the
basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch. Line
of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through
transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting
modifiers. As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing
device or other technological rendering of the target does not
establish the necessary link."

All you need to figure out is if Astral Perception counts for establishing the Mystic Link.

But this is followed in the same section by

"An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician
can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral
space"

So you do get that Astral Perception can be used to cast physical spells in the physical plane.

The above quotes are directly from the main section on how to target spells.