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> Never fudge a roll again, ever, MILES training for PCs?
Wounded Ronin
post Jan 22 2006, 10:15 PM
Post #1


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Mmm, see, over the years I decided that fudging the rolls is a bad idea.

This is the way I see it: people spend hours making their characters, buying gear, picking magic and bioware. Each of these things has a statistical impact. Sometimes, you'll use that much more of your starting nuyen to get ballistic armor higher by 1 point, which has a specific statistical effect.

I kind of feel like if the GM fudges the roles, all that time put into character creation has gone to waste. If I prioritized getting a few more points of armor over having a faster reaction time, I should get the consequences of that. Statistically, I'm less likely to die from getting shot, but statistically I'll also get shot more often. Does that balance out? It's all in the stats, and the decisions of the player.

In other words, I feel like there's simply no point to using statistical rules so painstakingly to make our characters and shape our world if the GM will just disregard them whenever something goes wrong.

When making the character, I knew the odds of my getting one-shotted by a Predator were higher or lower, based on my design. If a bad guy gets lucky and rolls mucho successes on his Pistols roll, and all and all blasts my head off...well, that was unfortunate, but those were the rules. My character design failed at that point, for whatever reason, and it's time to make a new one.

But, it's all pointless if my character design that I put hours into didn't count in the first place.

See what I mean? Why should we even bother to have a combat mechanic if that combat mechanic is going to be waived in the even of a little bad luck?

I used to believe in fudging, but now I am a firm believer in letting the dice fall where they may.

In fact, I just had an idea. Usually, in the past, with new players I would do a sample run in which I would roll the dice, explain the outcomes, but have the players be immune to damage. I would say things like, "We're playing this for familizarization, so you're not taking any damage. But if this were a real game, that'd be a Serious wound, and you'd have gotten a +3 TN to all target numbers. It's important to use cover and conserve combat pool appropriately," and things like that.

But, in the interests of immersion, and in the philosophical interest of letting the dice fall where they may, how about this?

Start all the characters off in some kind of MILES training compound. There's wooden boards and scaffolds forming houses, there's bunkers, there's underground tunnels. The characters are either equipped with MILES weapons (no damage, but beeping noises indicating wound severity), or else with simunitions (gel rounds). I'm thinking about the "McKenna MOUT" level in America's Army (www.americasarmy.com). Hell, too add flavor, we could even add the graffiti to one of the walls that says, "you can't spell lost without Lt." Let the character have a few "scrimmage matches" with gel rounds and learn the combat system.

That would be totally immersive, totally letting the dice fall where they may, and very much just pure practice in the use of the combat engine.

Hell, just to represent the practice, a GM could be entirely justified in giving each participant in the MILES session a karma point for each "scrimage". That seems totally reasonable to me.

What do you think?

EDIT:

This was originally going to be a reply post here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...=7&t=2467&st=50


EDIT 2:

How about using paintballs? That could be both flavorful and instructive. Describe where the paintball hits based on the successes the shooter had after reductions from a dodge test, and describe the pain based on the actual amount of damage that would have been caused after staging.

So, in terms of the shooter's successes,

Light = hit in the hand or foot
Medium = hit on the arm or leg
Serious = hit center of mass
Deadly = hit on the face; "are those my balls on your eyes?"

In terms of pain,

Dosen't hurt = staged away
Faint sting = light
Healthy smack = medium
Extremely painful = serious
You almost pass out from the pain = deadly
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Posts in this topic
- Wounded Ronin   Never fudge a roll again, ever   Jan 22 2006, 10:15 PM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   I have also recently adopted the practice of open ...   Jan 22 2006, 10:54 PM
- - Kozbot   I like the GM screen because I like keeping my pla...   Jan 22 2006, 11:02 PM
- - Aku   i try to do both. In cases where the PCs know what...   Jan 22 2006, 11:40 PM
- - IAmMarauder   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jan 22 2006, 10:15 PM)...   Jan 22 2006, 11:45 PM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   QUOTE (Kozbot)As for fudging rolls, I guess if SR ...   Jan 23 2006, 01:04 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (IAmMarauder) QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Ja...   Jan 23 2006, 01:20 AM
- - Kozbot   QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat) I instead think th...   Jan 23 2006, 03:20 AM
- - Dog   I like this idea, but it does leave the potential ...   Jan 23 2006, 04:11 AM
- - Clyde   Another thing to remember is that you need a fair ...   Jan 23 2006, 04:45 AM
- - nick012000   Except that the nice man with the assault rifle ca...   Jan 23 2006, 04:50 AM
- - ShadowDragon8685   QUOTE (nick012000) Except that the nice man with t...   Jan 23 2006, 05:00 AM
- - Liper   I like the screen because I roll like the god I am...   Jan 23 2006, 05:13 AM
- - Nidhogg   QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) QUOTE (nick012000 @ ...   Jan 23 2006, 05:23 AM
- - ShadowDragon8685   QUOTE (Nidhogg @ Jan 23 2006, 01:23 AM) QUOTE...   Jan 23 2006, 05:39 AM
- - mintcar   If I´ve had my players make characters according t...   Jan 23 2006, 12:04 PM
- - toturi   I keep hidden rolls that the book says to hide. Ot...   Jan 23 2006, 01:30 PM
- - Pendaric   As far as rolling the dice as a Ref, ST, Ctr, DM,...   Jan 23 2006, 01:45 PM
- - Kagetenshi   I'm a big fan of hidden rolls. I am not a big ...   Jan 26 2006, 12:43 AM
- - eidolon   QUOTE (Clyde)Another thing to remember is that you...   Jan 26 2006, 02:21 AM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   QUOTE (Kozbot)QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat ...   Jan 26 2006, 03:18 AM
- - Liper   treating the world like every person is fodder unl...   Jan 26 2006, 04:49 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (eidolon) QUOTE (Clyde)Another thing to reme...   Jan 26 2006, 04:59 AM
- - Cain   Okay, you all are forgetting the number one rule. ...   Jan 26 2006, 05:02 AM
- - eidolon   QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 25 2006, 11:59 PM) QU...   Jan 26 2006, 06:09 AM
- - Crystalmonkey   QUOTE Okay, you all are forgetting the number one...   Jan 26 2006, 06:15 AM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (eidolon @ Jan 26 2006, 01:09 AM) My po...   Jan 26 2006, 06:25 AM
- - eidolon   We just read his post with different experiences. ...   Jan 26 2006, 06:43 AM
- - Kagetenshi   What you're saying is true, but if you focus t...   Jan 26 2006, 07:28 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Cain) Okay, you all are forgetting the numb...   Jan 26 2006, 07:40 AM
- - eidolon   @ Kage: Meh, we both knew what you meant. As t...   Jan 26 2006, 07:47 AM
- - Maltaltin   Every roll we make is out in the open and we like ...   Jan 27 2006, 07:19 PM
- - Faenor   I admit; I used to fudge rolls, and my other GMs ...   Jan 28 2006, 12:14 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (Faenor @ Jan 27 2006, 07:14 PM) I...   Jan 30 2006, 03:05 AM
- - TinkerGnome   I don't fall into the "all dice as they f...   Jan 30 2006, 04:34 AM
- - Glyph   I really, really don't like messing with the d...   Jan 30 2006, 06:38 AM
- - Kozbot   I do fudge some die rolls yet my players have alwa...   Jan 30 2006, 07:46 AM
- - nezumi   I will admit I fudge rolls, however I think I have...   Jan 30 2006, 04:42 PM
- - Cain   QUOTE See, I would argue that the character in que...   Feb 1 2006, 07:06 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 1 2006, 02:06 PM) We're...   Feb 1 2006, 07:34 PM
- - Aku   QUOTE We're not talking "a great height...   Feb 1 2006, 07:36 PM
- - Kagetenshi   By canon, a one-meter fall is 1L. Fairly realistic...   Feb 1 2006, 07:38 PM
- - PBTHHHHT   Recently there was a guy who hit his head on the s...   Feb 1 2006, 07:48 PM
- - brennanhawkwood   QUOTE (Kozbot)I do fudge some die rolls yet my pla...   Feb 1 2006, 07:57 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   Re curbs, I think it is worth pointing out that ev...   Feb 1 2006, 09:53 PM
- - Brahm   Someone I know broke their collar bone walking the...   Feb 1 2006, 10:11 PM
- - nezumi   My grand dad fell and had a heart attack. Or mayb...   Feb 1 2006, 10:35 PM
- - Cain   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) Re curbs, I think it is wort...   Feb 1 2006, 10:43 PM
- - Shrapnel   I personally feel that bad rolls which result in a...   Feb 2 2006, 02:54 AM
- - Cain   So do colds. When was the last time you afflicted...   Feb 2 2006, 06:54 AM
- - brennanhawkwood   QUOTE (Shrapnel)I personally feel that bad rolls w...   Feb 2 2006, 01:12 PM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   QUOTE (Cain) So do colds. When was the last time ...   Feb 2 2006, 05:57 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (brennanhawkwood) The other potentially n...   Feb 2 2006, 11:43 PM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)One of my players didn't ...   Feb 3 2006, 12:08 AM
- - nezumi   QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat) and had the GM hel...   Feb 3 2006, 03:07 PM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   QUOTE (nezumi)If the players don't want a tact...   Feb 3 2006, 06:35 PM
- - Glyph   I would kind of go with a limited version of #3, m...   Feb 4 2006, 03:49 AM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   What is this "bigfooting"? Manipulating ...   Feb 4 2006, 10:46 PM
- - Glyph   Information is fine... it's things like hints ...   Feb 5 2006, 09:36 AM
- - nezumi   QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat)QUOTE (nezumi)If th...   Feb 6 2006, 04:08 AM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   QUOTE (nezumi)Combat is simply a distraction from ...   Feb 6 2006, 06:25 PM
- - nezumi   I'd agree, A or D, depending on OOC considerat...   Feb 6 2006, 06:41 PM
- - The Stainless Steel Rat   Looks like we're pretty much in overall agreem...   Feb 6 2006, 08:04 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) I kind of feel like if the G...   Feb 6 2006, 08:34 PM
- - nezumi   That's true. I do remember one run, I don...   Feb 6 2006, 09:09 PM
- - crimson ronin   regardless of why anyone plays shadowrun(or any ga...   Feb 6 2006, 10:02 PM
- - Wounded Ronin   QUOTE (The Stainless Steel Rat) QUOTE (nezumi)If t...   Feb 7 2006, 12:53 AM
- - Aku   QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) QUOTE (The Stainless Steel R...   Feb 7 2006, 01:02 AM
- - Wounded Ronin   But if the person is really good with the rules, t...   Feb 7 2006, 01:13 AM
- - Aku   which goes back to the fictitous player being a ...   Feb 7 2006, 02:29 AM
- - Glyph   Yeah. There's a difference between a newbie w...   Feb 7 2006, 03:00 AM
- - Aku   I'd also not that i agree with most of the pos...   Feb 7 2006, 03:08 AM
- - nezumi   I think we've jumped a little bit here. As AK...   Feb 7 2006, 03:26 AM
- - Nidhogg   I find that sometimes dice fudges, or at least som...   Feb 7 2006, 04:20 AM


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