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> The awakened, and the broke, Currently the rules nerf mundanes
SaintHax
post Nov 30 2004, 05:47 PM
Post #1


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I love ShadowRun. LOVE IT! B/c of the way damage is soaked, and tracked, I think it has the best rules of any game. Somewhat streamlined, but realistic enough. HOWEVER, it has some broke arse stuff in it. Mainly, mundanes suck. This isn't an opinion, it's math... see below.

To cast combat, detection, health, illusion, and manipulation spells: you need to learn the specialization sorcery (spellcasting).

If you want to shoot something, you need to pick one of the following base skills: pistols, SMG, rifles, assault rifle, or shot gun (or laser weapons). And, if you choose rifle, and pick up an assault rifle... there's a huge difference in ShadowRun skill wise. The same rules apply to melee weapons.

Now we go to use them. The mage fires a stun bolt at a troll willpower 2 troll, he needs 2's to hit. You fire a gun at the quickness 1 troll, you need a 4. Now really, from the offensive side, this balances out. B/c if it was a willpower/quickness 6 elf, the mage would need a 6, and you'd still need a 4. From the Troll, Elf standpoint, the Elf is getting screwed. He's half the troll's size, and yet is just as easy to hit as the quickness 1 troll. There's combat pool to dodge, but it's not balanced, and another discussion.

The mage also can cast invisibilty (which is broke), treat, powerbolt, and powerball using just his will based specialization of sorcery (spellcasting). A mundane would need all these base skills: stealth (Qk), Biotech (In), a ranged weapon (Qk), and thrown weapon (gernades, St). Now I'm not saying that the mundane should be equal to the awakened. That's why I'm not knocking all the additional things a spell slinger can do, that a mundane can't. A sorcerer can have a spell to attack any stat: illusions can pretty much take out those low in intelligence, mana spells wreck low willpower, powerball still attacks body, and decrease attribute (Chr) can even paralyze an uncharming troll. Sweet. A mage also has natural concealment. A spell can be smuggled through anywhere it's not active... not so a gun. In the areas where mundanes and awakened overlap, the mage should not have such a clear advantage in both power and growth potential.

SR3 was a huge improvement. The linking of skills to attributes balanced a lot of power gaming. In SR2, only true role players or summoners ever had a charisma over 1, b/c it wasn't needed. However, in SR3 we started drifting away from a prime concept: tech and magic don't mix. Increase cyber attribute... big suck. Vehicle mask... big suck.

Last point, more spells are broke than cyber/bioware... AND... the core rules (M&M) suggest not letting new characters start w/ cultured bioware, despite it being common in 2064. Limits mundanes more.


+<:-) SaintHax

P.S. I play as both a troll sorcerer and mudane (human) covert ops
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Posts in this topic
- SaintHax   The awakened, and the broke   Nov 30 2004, 05:47 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   QUOTE (SaintHax)However, in SR3 we started driftin...   Nov 30 2004, 06:00 PM
- - Halabis   I see no problem with that. Magic is better for a...   Nov 30 2004, 06:01 PM
- - Spookymonster   If a mage wants to upgrade a F4 Fireball to F5, it...   Nov 30 2004, 06:24 PM
- - LinaInverse   Your math is off. First off, any half-wit gunbunn...   Nov 30 2004, 06:25 PM
- - Nikoli   Also, your mage can't pry spells from the mind...   Nov 30 2004, 06:27 PM
- - Solstice   Ok well someone refute his statement the invisibil...   Nov 30 2004, 06:28 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   QUOTE (Solstice)Ok well someone refute his stateme...   Nov 30 2004, 06:43 PM
- - ES_Riddle   There are three reasons that help to keep invisibi...   Nov 30 2004, 06:43 PM
- - John Campbell   Don't forget that, in addition to the Sorcery ...   Nov 30 2004, 06:45 PM
- - Solstice   Ok i'm satisfied... Now someone list the reas...   Nov 30 2004, 06:47 PM
- - Solstice   QUOTE (John Campbell) Don't forget that, in ad...   Nov 30 2004, 06:48 PM
- - John Campbell   QUOTE (Solstice) QUOTE (John Campbell @ Nov 3...   Nov 30 2004, 06:55 PM
- - Sahandrian   Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that a...   Nov 30 2004, 07:03 PM
- - Lindt   QUOTE (John Campbell) QUOTE (Solstice @ Nov 3...   Nov 30 2004, 07:03 PM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) QUOTE (SaintHax)Howeve...   Nov 30 2004, 07:10 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   The actual setting is dealing with magic and techn...   Nov 30 2004, 07:18 PM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (LinaInverse) Your math is off. First off, ...   Nov 30 2004, 07:20 PM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) The actual setting is ...   Nov 30 2004, 07:22 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (SaintHax @ Nov 30 2004, 05:47 PM) To c...   Nov 30 2004, 07:23 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Keep in mind that unless I'm quite mistaken (w...   Nov 30 2004, 07:35 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   Will your angst spread to cyberware and bioware ev...   Nov 30 2004, 07:40 PM
- - Solstice   QUOTE (Cray74) After discovering suppressive fire...   Nov 30 2004, 07:40 PM
- - SaintHax   Here's the most important reason why it's ...   Nov 30 2004, 07:43 PM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) Will your angst spread...   Nov 30 2004, 07:54 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   1: There have been debates at how easy it is to ma...   Nov 30 2004, 08:13 PM
- - Joe Outside   QUOTE (SaintHax @ Nov 30 2004, 02:43 PM) Here...   Nov 30 2004, 08:14 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Solstice)QUOTE (Cray74 @ Nov 30 2004, ...   Nov 30 2004, 08:22 PM
- - Eyeless Blond   QUOTE (SaintHax @ Nov 30 2004, 02:43 PM) Here...   Nov 30 2004, 08:24 PM
- - Eyeless Blond   Oh, and one more thing: Inproved Invis does nothin...   Nov 30 2004, 08:33 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (SaintHax)Since I play test, I agree to play...   Nov 30 2004, 08:37 PM
- - Solstice   I'm not a complete newbie to SR and I've n...   Nov 30 2004, 08:50 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Eyeless Blond: first off, as I already stated, if ...   Nov 30 2004, 08:52 PM
- - John Campbell   QUOTE (Solstice) I'm not a complete newbie to ...   Nov 30 2004, 09:04 PM
- - Solstice   Who said I was rejecting it out of hand? I'm g...   Nov 30 2004, 09:10 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Solstice)Also I thought suppressive fire wa...   Nov 30 2004, 09:18 PM
- - draco aardvark   QUOTE (Solstice)Do you think realisitically that a...   Nov 30 2004, 09:21 PM
- - Solstice   If you guys really play like that then IMO your pl...   Nov 30 2004, 09:29 PM
- - Bigity   If the character doesn't know yet, he will lea...   Nov 30 2004, 09:35 PM
- - John Campbell   No, we're playing characters who have been liv...   Nov 30 2004, 09:37 PM
- - Solstice   Ok maybe your character isn't...but every NPC ...   Nov 30 2004, 09:46 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Solstice)If you guys really play like that ...   Nov 30 2004, 09:51 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   Security guard training will include "Mages, ...   Nov 30 2004, 09:53 PM
- - Bigity   While I completely agree that every wageslave out ...   Nov 30 2004, 09:53 PM
- - Garland   You're talking like the concept of invisibilit...   Nov 30 2004, 09:57 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) Security guard trainin...   Nov 30 2004, 09:58 PM
- - Solstice   Whatever, that's fine. We just have two differ...   Nov 30 2004, 09:58 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   QUOTE (Solstice)ok i'm done now no more it...   Nov 30 2004, 10:00 PM
- - Garland   What's inaccurate (for example) about "in...   Nov 30 2004, 10:01 PM
- - Bigity   Yes, but the same thing happens today. You have s...   Nov 30 2004, 10:05 PM
- - Garland   Ah, but we're not talking about open-heart sur...   Nov 30 2004, 10:09 PM
- - Bigity   That's what I'm saying. While you may not...   Nov 30 2004, 10:11 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Garland @ Nov 30 2004, 09:57 PM) I...   Nov 30 2004, 10:13 PM
- - Apathy   I would agree with the argument that any decent se...   Nov 30 2004, 10:45 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Apathy) But full-power mages shouldn't ...   Nov 30 2004, 10:59 PM
- - Crimsondude 2.0   QUOTE (SaintHax) I love ShadowRun. LOVE IT! ...   Nov 30 2004, 11:45 PM
- - Eyeless Blond   QUOTE (Solstice) If you guys really play like that...   Dec 1 2004, 12:23 AM
- - DrJest   QUOTE Whatever, that's fine. We just have two ...   Dec 1 2004, 01:21 AM
- - DrJest   QUOTE The only possible way you would *not* know t...   Dec 1 2004, 01:22 AM
- - Solstice   Thats kinda like saying that watching the A Team h...   Dec 1 2004, 03:01 AM
- - Kagetenshi   None of that is necessary except the "seen by...   Dec 1 2004, 03:05 AM
- - Fortune   Your example player's character is the excepti...   Dec 1 2004, 03:09 AM
- - Sandoval Smith   I would like to know Solstice's character...   Dec 1 2004, 03:12 AM
- - SaintHax   I think we are getting off topic. Instead of disc...   Dec 1 2004, 05:02 AM
- - Kagetenshi   Have you tried killing a properly equipped Rigger ...   Dec 1 2004, 05:10 AM
- - Crusher Bob   Or just a sam with a bunch of guns? Any highly sk...   Dec 1 2004, 05:22 AM
- - Sandoval Smith   What exactely do you mean by mundanes? Just by de...   Dec 1 2004, 05:29 AM
- - Eyeless Blond   I think by mundane he means non-Awakened. The prob...   Dec 1 2004, 07:41 AM
- - Glyph   I have not made that many mundane characters, but ...   Dec 1 2004, 07:54 AM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 1 2004, 12:10 AM) Hav...   Dec 1 2004, 10:47 AM
- - toturi   That is becuase GMs usually do not enforce Backgro...   Dec 1 2004, 11:24 AM
- - Da9iel   I thought the magic loss test was only for a) dead...   Dec 1 2004, 12:02 PM
- - toturi   QUOTE When an Awakened character suffers a Deadly ...   Dec 1 2004, 12:14 PM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (toturi) Deadly wound - no distinction betwe...   Dec 1 2004, 12:29 PM
- - Da9iel   QUOTE (SR3 p. 160)Other circumstances [besides ess...   Dec 1 2004, 12:31 PM
- - toturi   Yes, they include those conditions listed above, b...   Dec 1 2004, 12:48 PM
- - SaintHax   QUOTE (toturi) Yes, they include those conditions ...   Dec 1 2004, 01:27 PM
- - Da9iel   Toturi: Fine if you want to GM it that way. I read...   Dec 1 2004, 01:29 PM
- - toturi   QUOTE (SaintHax @ Dec 1 2004, 09:27 PM) QUOTE...   Dec 1 2004, 01:56 PM
- - Kagetenshi   QUOTE (SaintHax @ Dec 1 2004, 05:47 AM) Rigge...   Dec 1 2004, 02:32 PM
- - toturi   Don't forget the otaku face insuing a warrant ...   Dec 1 2004, 02:50 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (SaintHax)I think we are getting off topic....   Dec 1 2004, 03:01 PM
- - Digital Heroin   What I'm seeing here is a case of two people w...   Dec 1 2004, 03:09 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Digital Heroin) Oh, and he can go into spac...   Dec 1 2004, 03:18 PM
- - Bigity   QUOTE (toturi) Don't forget the otaku face ins...   Dec 1 2004, 05:03 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Bigity) Otaku face? Isn't that kind of...   Dec 1 2004, 05:25 PM
- - toturi   QUOTE (Bigity) QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 1 2004, 09...   Dec 1 2004, 05:39 PM
- - Bigity   Just kind of seems to go against the grain Karma...   Dec 1 2004, 05:44 PM
- - Lantzer   Going back to the whole invisibility thing... Some...   Dec 1 2004, 05:58 PM
- - Ved'ma   I think Lantzer has it right. Nothing exotic is re...   Dec 1 2004, 06:05 PM
- - Botch   I came into this a bit late, but isn't around ...   Dec 1 2004, 06:06 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   Invisibility affects all types of normal vision. ...   Dec 1 2004, 06:10 PM
- - John Campbell   QUOTE (Botch) I came into this a bit late, but isn...   Dec 1 2004, 06:11 PM
- - Rev   I find it really irritating that healing a sam is ...   Dec 1 2004, 06:44 PM
- - Cray74   QUOTE (Rev)I find it really irritating that healin...   Dec 1 2004, 07:24 PM
- - Rev   The edge and first aid are also available to magic...   Dec 1 2004, 08:48 PM
- - Shockwave_IIc   Just as a side note, has it not Errated that the l...   Dec 1 2004, 08:49 PM
- - Mercer   The first SR character I ever made, and played for...   Dec 1 2004, 09:29 PM
- - Kagetenshi   Er… the karma pool everyone else will be getting t...   Dec 1 2004, 09:42 PM
- - Doctor Funkenstein   Not to mention that with the minimum of 840 Karma ...   Dec 1 2004, 09:50 PM
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