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> Bursts and Full-Autofire, heretic thoughts and house rule
Ombre
post Feb 19 2005, 06:44 PM
Post #1


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Am I the only one here thinking that automatic weapons are way too powerful when compared to semi-automatic guns ?
I hope not...

Anyway, let me explain my point (I apologize in advance for my English skills): if you shoot some Humanis skinhead wearing a Lined coat with a single bullet from your trusty AK97, he gets to roll 4s (8 - Ballistic Armor Rating of 4) to soak the damage...
Strangely enough, if I fire 6 slugs, our Humanis goon (not that I'm pitying him though...) must get 10s on his Body test...

How come? All those 6 bullets don't punch through the same hole in the kevlar lining, right?
Some people will argue that 6 bullets transmit much more kinetic energy and so on...which explains the increase in Power.
Let's consider another example : let's say our skinhead gets shot by two M.O.M activists
firing one 3-round burst each (that is the same number of bullets as in my previous example) : suddenly , the Body Test is TN 7 instead of 10 for the very same number of bullets...
How come armor can have such a varying degree of efficiency? After all, each bullet has to punch through the same thickness of kevlar/ceramic plates , doesn't it?

My point is : the full-auto/burst fire rules suck ! Not very logical and way too deadly in my humble opinion...

Here is my proposition, partly inspired by the Searching Fire rule in the Cannon Companion: the philosophy is autofire increases the chances you hit the target.

So I suggest that you get a bonus of 1 Die for every bullet fired in a burst (long or short) with a maximum equal to your Base Skill.
Damage Level would go up but NOT the Power of the attack (exactly the opposite of the Searching Fire rule)
You could even go a little bit further by considering that on a burst, the number of bullets that actually hit the target depends on your successes: 1 bullet hits for each success on your Combat roll , which then allows you to come up with the actual Damage Level.

Let's take an example:

SunderStone (strength 10, Assault Rifle 5, Combat Pool 6), Troll street samuraļ and card-wielding MOM activist , decides to clarify his political ideas by firing a 6-round burst with his good old AK (recoil comp 4, smartlinked) on a Brackhaven fanboy (Body 5) in Reinforced Jacket (5/3) insulting him from across the street in Redmond at 2 am (20 m, short range, partial light)
TN: 5
SunderStone chooses to roll 15 dice (skill+pool+bonus from autofire ) and can expect to get some 5 successes. The damage level is 8S (if you use the optional rule of taking the actual number of slugs hitting the target to calculate Damage Level)

The Humanis goon can dodge (TN 6) with let's say 4 pool dice and get maybe one success and then make a Body test TN 3 (8 - 5) with 7 dice (5 from Body, 2 remaining pool dice) , getting 4 successes.


End result: the norm falls on the sidewalk screaming with a Serious Wound...very different from the usual inescapable Deadly Wound....

The point here is that in the standard rule an overstressed NRA-contributing-sarariman with an AK can fire a 14D long burst. With a Dodge TN of 6, even a seasoned runner can get wasted. since the Body test would have an average TN of 8 (considering 6 Ballistic pts)...

My house rule tries to make a big difference between a professional and an amateur (the difference being the number of successes hence the number of bullets actually hitting the target and thus the Damage Level) and tries to reevaluate the effectiveness of armor against burst fire...
As a side effect, some weapons like the Ares Crusader or the Beretta 200ST would be reevaluated too, their autofire capacity giving an alternative choice to consider (lesser Power than a heavy handgun, but bonus dice : nice trade-off for average shooters)

What's your opinion on this heresy?
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Posts in this topic
- Ombre   Bursts and Full-Autofire   Feb 19 2005, 06:44 PM
- - Kanada Ten   So, you just use the Searching Fire rules in place...   Feb 19 2005, 06:47 PM
- - Ombre   Let's say the philosphy of it (but not the let...   Feb 19 2005, 06:50 PM
- - BitBasher   Remember also, taking damage does *not* mean the b...   Feb 19 2005, 07:34 PM
- - Lindt   It just boils down to how lucky the skinhead is. ...   Feb 19 2005, 07:39 PM
- - Raife   Keep in mind that a firefight like this SHOULD be ...   Feb 19 2005, 08:06 PM
- - James McMurray   2 and 4 don't apply to shadowrun. There is no ...   Feb 19 2005, 08:22 PM
- - Dawnshadow   Shoot better AND more, AND more often.   Feb 19 2005, 08:40 PM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE (James McMurray) There is no bonus for being...   Feb 19 2005, 08:46 PM
- - James McMurray   What book is that from? Its not in the main book (...   Feb 19 2005, 09:06 PM
- - hahnsoo   A quick search through the BBB (god, I love the ne...   Feb 19 2005, 09:16 PM
- - Raife   Hmm, I thought there was a +2 modifier to fire at ...   Feb 19 2005, 10:11 PM
- - hyzmarca   You could increase the effectivness of multiple sh...   Feb 19 2005, 11:41 PM
- - BitBasher   I would have bet vital parts of my anatomy that wa...   Feb 20 2005, 09:10 AM
- - mfb   i've seen it before as well. can't find it...   Feb 20 2005, 09:27 AM
- - Xirces   QUOTE (hyzmarca) You could increase the effectivne...   Feb 20 2005, 11:30 AM
- - Ombre   Actually my point was to find an alternative to th...   Feb 20 2005, 01:29 PM
- - Austere Emancipator   QUOTE (Ombre)Let's take a simple example: a bu...   Feb 20 2005, 01:52 PM
- - Kanada Ten   QUOTE However, I don't really have a problem w...   Feb 20 2005, 04:45 PM
- - Austere Emancipator   All fully automatic fire in an action is divided e...   Feb 20 2005, 04:57 PM
- - LynGrey   Ok i rather be shot with one bullet than a 3 shot ...   Feb 20 2005, 06:55 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE if you don't like the system.. then eit...   Feb 20 2005, 07:04 PM
- - TeOdio   I agree w/ the house rule thing, but I'd like ...   Feb 21 2005, 06:29 AM
- - Sandoval Smith   My opinion is that I guess it's not so bad of ...   Feb 21 2005, 07:00 AM
- - Smiley   QUOTE (Ombre @ Feb 19 2005, 02:44 PM) Am I th...   Feb 21 2005, 08:00 AM
- - Arethusa   QUOTE (Smiley)Of course they're going to be mo...   Feb 21 2005, 08:39 AM
- - Ombre   Well...guess I'm the only one dissatisfied ...   Feb 21 2005, 10:37 AM
- - TheOneRonin   Ombre, you aren't the only one who is dissatis...   Feb 21 2005, 03:32 PM
- - Austere Emancipator   In the 3rd video, when the guy is firing the Shrik...   Feb 21 2005, 03:50 PM
- - TheOneRonin   You make a good point about the Shrike gunner AE, ...   Feb 21 2005, 03:58 PM
- - James McMurray   QUOTE That is by FAR a more model approach to fire...   Feb 21 2005, 04:31 PM
- - GrinderTheTroll   So most folks agree that when you get into a firef...   Feb 21 2005, 06:44 PM
- - TheOneRonin   I'll agree that Shadorun is an "escape...   Feb 21 2005, 07:18 PM
- - GrinderTheTroll   QUOTE (TheOneRonin) I'll agree that Shadorun i...   Feb 21 2005, 07:31 PM
- - Smiley   QUOTE (Arethusa) QUOTE (Smiley)Of course they...   Feb 21 2005, 08:16 PM
- - Arethusa   Even that's not really a guarantee, though. S...   Feb 21 2005, 08:29 PM
- - TheOneRonin   Okay...here's a primer on those full auto rule...   Feb 21 2005, 08:32 PM
- - TheOneRonin   QUOTE (Arethusa) Even that's not really a guar...   Feb 21 2005, 08:36 PM
- - James McMurray   Why don't the people who need so much more rea...   Feb 22 2005, 12:16 AM
- - Raygun   QUOTE (James McMurray)Why don't the people who...   Feb 22 2005, 12:45 AM
- - Crusher Bob   Hmm... Let me run a few samples (assuming much mo...   Feb 22 2005, 06:33 AM
- - Ombre   Seems I wasn't clear again... Actuallythe whol...   Feb 22 2005, 01:27 PM
- - TheOneRonin   Crusher Bob: Thanks for the samples. I wasn...   Feb 22 2005, 03:52 PM
- - BitBasher   TheOneRonin You just described the Searching Fire ...   Feb 22 2005, 04:41 PM
- - mmu1   QUOTE (TheOneRonin) And for those who think it...   Feb 22 2005, 05:07 PM
- - TheOneRonin   QUOTE (mmu1)QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Feb 21 2005,...   Feb 22 2005, 05:37 PM
- - hahnsoo   QUOTE (TheOneRonin) Now as for Seaching fire...I h...   Feb 22 2005, 05:48 PM
- - mfb   QUOTE (shadowland house rules)Rather than making a...   Feb 22 2005, 06:22 PM
- - shadow_scholar   QUOTE (Ombre) Seems I wasn't clear again... Ac...   Feb 22 2005, 06:26 PM
- - BitBasher   Two things: 1) a body of 15 isn't all that im...   Feb 22 2005, 06:39 PM
- - Dawnshadow   QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2005, 01:39 PM) 1) ...   Feb 22 2005, 06:48 PM
- - mmu1   QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Feb 22 2005, 12:37 PM) A...   Feb 22 2005, 06:50 PM
- - Herald of Verjigorm   QUOTE (Dawnshadow) 20 body. (Can ony be done with ...   Feb 22 2005, 06:54 PM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE Edit: Flip side -- Why isn't body 15 imp...   Feb 22 2005, 07:01 PM
- - Dawnshadow   QUOTE (BitBasher) 15 body isn't impressive bec...   Feb 22 2005, 07:15 PM
- - shadow_scholar   a 15 body isn't impressive? It's two and ...   Feb 22 2005, 07:59 PM
- - hahnsoo   Just a note that dermal plating and bone lacing ha...   Feb 22 2005, 08:05 PM
- - Dawnshadow   Ah. I don't have M&M. How much are the pen...   Feb 22 2005, 08:09 PM
- - hahnsoo   2 Cyberlimbs/torso: No change 3 Cyberlimbs/torso: ...   Feb 22 2005, 08:11 PM
- - Fortune   QUOTE (shadow_scholar) a 15 body isn't impress...   Feb 22 2005, 08:31 PM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE (Fortune) QUOTE (shadow_scholar @ Feb 2...   Feb 22 2005, 08:34 PM
- - Austere Emancipator   In other words, you need to drop the Cyberarms. No...   Feb 22 2005, 08:39 PM
- - RunnerPaul   QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2005, 01:39 PM) 2) ...   Feb 23 2005, 01:47 AM
- - mfb   when you have MBW-4, you won't have to dodge b...   Feb 23 2005, 01:51 AM
- - kevyn668   Edit: What's the question again?   Feb 23 2005, 02:52 AM
- - RunnerPaul   Woah.   Feb 23 2005, 02:53 AM
- - Wireknight   For people suggesting the highest possibly Body on...   Feb 23 2005, 03:05 AM
- - kevyn668   To quote RunnerPaul: "Woah."   Feb 23 2005, 03:09 AM
- - hahnsoo   Dermal Sheathing removes the natural dermal deposi...   Feb 23 2005, 03:16 AM
- - RunnerPaul   QUOTE (Wireknight) Oh, and you could actually do ...   Feb 23 2005, 03:18 AM
- - mfb   i don't see that in the book, hahnsoo.   Feb 23 2005, 03:21 AM
- - hahnsoo   QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 22 2005, 10:21 PM) i don...   Feb 23 2005, 03:24 AM
- - mfb   note that dermal sheathing has regenerative proper...   Feb 23 2005, 03:33 AM
- - Endgame50   I would go this route: Ork (9 body base, 6 quickn...   Feb 23 2005, 05:58 AM
- - Austere Emancipator   Darn. SURGE and Genetech. I'll always be 2 poi...   Feb 23 2005, 10:29 AM
- - Critias   Staying SoTA's a bitch.   Feb 23 2005, 10:34 AM
- - Johnson   I have found that SOTA is used quite a bit, its a ...   Feb 24 2005, 06:54 AM
- - Endgame50   I highly recommend going out and getting them if a...   Feb 24 2005, 07:10 AM
- - Johnson   It have had SOTA 63 on order for the last 4 months...   Feb 24 2005, 07:16 AM
- - Crusher Bob   Yay for SR PDFs   Feb 24 2005, 07:20 AM
- - Johnson   PDF's. Yes I agree but I rather like the feel ...   Feb 24 2005, 07:35 AM
- - Link   mfb (if the shadowland rules you quoted are yours)...   Feb 24 2005, 03:07 PM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE (Johnson) PDF's. Yes I agree but I rathe...   Feb 24 2005, 04:59 PM
- - mfb   partly for game balance, partly for realism. for g...   Feb 24 2005, 05:48 PM
- - Smiley   Yeah, but with only one success, it's that muc...   Feb 24 2005, 05:55 PM
- - mfb   that one success gives your target +2 TN to dodge,...   Feb 24 2005, 06:00 PM
- - Smiley   But all the target needs is 1 six and he avoids it...   Feb 24 2005, 07:13 PM
- - mfb   no, he needs two sixes. you have to beat the attac...   Feb 24 2005, 08:00 PM
- - Link   After rereading the SL rules it occurred to me tha...   Feb 25 2005, 12:44 AM
- - Rolemodel   QUOTE (BitBasher) 1) a body of 15 isn't all th...   Mar 1 2005, 11:56 AM
- - BitBasher   QUOTE (Rolemodel) QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 22 2...   Mar 1 2005, 04:48 PM
- - Rolemodel   Of course. High armor plays it's part, natura...   Mar 4 2005, 11:18 AM
- - Dawnshadow   QUOTE (BitBasher) QUOTE (Rolemodel @ Mar 1 20...   Mar 4 2005, 02:43 PM
- - BitBasher   I didn't assume anything means naked, I was ju...   Mar 4 2005, 06:29 PM
- - mfb   QUOTE (Link)I tend to think one could adjust the d...   Mar 5 2005, 02:56 AM
- - Dawnshadow   QUOTE (BitBasher) I didn't assume anything mea...   Mar 5 2005, 04:02 AM
- - Arethusa   Dawn, you're nitpicking, and repeatedly beatin...   Mar 5 2005, 04:44 AM
- - Dawnshadow   QUOTE (Arethusa) Dawn, you're nitpicking, and ...   Mar 5 2005, 04:55 AM
- - Arethusa   It's not a valid form of debate when you'r...   Mar 5 2005, 04:59 AM
- - hahnsoo   *hands out some NERPS* Everyone feel better now?   Mar 5 2005, 05:09 AM


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