Am I the only one here thinking that automatic weapons are way too powerful when compared to semi-automatic guns ?
I hope not...
Anyway, let me explain my point (I apologize in advance for my English skills): if you shoot some Humanis skinhead wearing a Lined coat with a single bullet from your trusty AK97, he gets to roll 4s (8 - Ballistic Armor Rating of 4) to soak the damage...
Strangely enough, if I fire 6 slugs, our Humanis goon (not that I'm pitying him though...) must get 10s on his Body test...
How come? All those 6 bullets don't punch through the same hole in the kevlar lining, right?
Some people will argue that 6 bullets transmit much more kinetic energy and so on...which explains the increase in Power.
Let's consider another example : let's say our skinhead gets shot by two M.O.M activists
firing one 3-round burst each (that is the same number of bullets as in my previous example) : suddenly , the Body Test is TN 7 instead of 10 for the very same number of bullets...
How come armor can have such a varying degree of efficiency? After all, each bullet has to punch through the same thickness of kevlar/ceramic plates , doesn't it?
My point is : the full-auto/burst fire rules suck ! Not very logical and way too deadly in my humble opinion...
Here is my proposition, partly inspired by the Searching Fire rule in the Cannon Companion: the philosophy is autofire increases the chances you hit the target.
So I suggest that you get a bonus of 1 Die for every bullet fired in a burst (long or short) with a maximum equal to your Base Skill.
Damage Level would go up but NOT the Power of the attack (exactly the opposite of the Searching Fire rule)
You could even go a little bit further by considering that on a burst, the number of bullets that actually hit the target depends on your successes: 1 bullet hits for each success on your Combat roll , which then allows you to come up with the actual Damage Level.
Let's take an example:
SunderStone (strength 10, Assault Rifle 5, Combat Pool 6), Troll street samuraļ and card-wielding MOM activist , decides to clarify his political ideas by firing a 6-round burst with his good old AK (recoil comp 4, smartlinked) on a Brackhaven fanboy (Body 5) in Reinforced Jacket (5/3) insulting him from across the street in Redmond at 2 am (20 m, short range, partial light)
TN: 5
SunderStone chooses to roll 15 dice (skill+pool+bonus from autofire ) and can expect to get some 5 successes. The damage level is 8S (if you use the optional rule of taking the actual number of slugs hitting the target to calculate Damage Level)
The Humanis goon can dodge (TN 6) with let's say 4 pool dice and get maybe one success and then make a Body test TN 3 (8 - 5) with 7 dice (5 from Body, 2 remaining pool dice) , getting 4 successes.
End result: the norm falls on the sidewalk screaming with a Serious Wound...very different from the usual inescapable Deadly Wound....
The point here is that in the standard rule an overstressed NRA-contributing-sarariman with an AK can fire a 14D long burst. With a Dodge TN of 6, even a seasoned runner can get wasted. since the Body test would have an average TN of 8 (considering 6 Ballistic pts)...
My house rule tries to make a big difference between a professional and an amateur (the difference being the number of successes hence the number of bullets actually hitting the target and thus the Damage Level) and tries to reevaluate the effectiveness of armor against burst fire...
As a side effect, some weapons like the Ares Crusader or the Beretta 200ST would be reevaluated too, their autofire capacity giving an alternative choice to consider (lesser Power than a heavy handgun, but bonus dice : nice trade-off for average shooters)
What's your opinion on this heresy?
Full Version: Bursts and Full-Autofire
So, you just use the Searching Fire rules in place of Damage increase?
Let's say the philosphy of it (but not the letter) , instead of the standard rule from the BBB, yes....but with some differences if you've read the examples...
Remember also, taking damage does *not* mean the bullet punched through the armor. In fact, the bullet won;t punch through the armor very often, the damage is cause by the blunt force trauma of the bullet impact with the armor whether or not it penetrates. I'd say the bullet rarely penetarates.
It just boils down to how lucky the skinhead is. He might just get nicked, or have the armoed soak most of the impact, but with 6 rounds comming at him, hes in a world of trouble. There is a reason that fully automatic rifles where invented ya know. Cause they ARE better.
Keep in mind that a firefight like this SHOULD be dangerous. Players and NPC's should spend most of their time dodging. If they aren't... well... then they deserve to die. Just standing and shooting will get you killed.
Rules to a firefight (shadowrun and real life match up here)
1) Don't get cought in the open
2) Stay prone if you can
3) If 1 & 2 fail keep moving... a zig-zag and move towards your target.
4) Don't shoot better... shoot MORE!
Rules to a firefight (shadowrun and real life match up here)
1) Don't get cought in the open
2) Stay prone if you can
3) If 1 & 2 fail keep moving... a zig-zag and move towards your target.
4) Don't shoot better... shoot MORE!
2 and 4 don't apply to shadowrun. There is no bonus for being prone, unless you're behind something which gives cover. 4 is especially not true. A single shot with 6 successes is much better than a 6 round burst with none, or a ten round burst with one that gets dodged.
Shoot better AND more, AND more often.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| There is no bonus for being prone, unless you're behind something which gives cover. |
Yes there is, target prone is a +1 or +2 to shoot at them.
What book is that from? Its not in the main book (at least its not on the ranged attack modifiers table).
A quick search through the BBB (god, I love the new PDFs) reveals no modifier to try to hit a prone person. However, if you are using Cover rules, it would make sense that at certain angles, a prone person would be harder to hit than a standing person, and thus a +2 to +6 modifier would apply.
I remember a "prone target" modifier, too. Maybe it was in 2nd edition. I'll have to dig out my 2nd ed BBB sometime.
I remember a "prone target" modifier, too. Maybe it was in 2nd edition. I'll have to dig out my 2nd ed BBB sometime.
Hmm, I thought there was a +2 modifier to fire at a prone target. Well I'm gonna keep playing with it.
As for shooting more is better than shooting better... it IS true. You are using an extreme example with the +6 successes.
let's use a more likely approach.
6 Dice in Pistols and Assualt rifles, short range, 9m dmg on both, target has 5/3 armor
6 dice at a target number 4 gets you 3 successes, with a 4 needed for success to dodge.
now assuming they roll 4 dice to dodge, they get 2 successes. then 4 body dice on average gets 2 more... target takes a M wound.
1 3 round burst from the SM, assuming only 1 point of recoil compensation (much likely more) would be a target number of 5, gaining 2 successes. 4 dice to dodge gets 1 success, and soaking the 12s at a target number 7 gets you maybe 1 more. So the target takes a Serious wound.
That is by FAR a more model approach to fire more vs well. If your characters (both player and non) are NOT dodging then yes... one good bullet is better. But with dodging... MORE IS BETTER!
As for shooting more is better than shooting better... it IS true. You are using an extreme example with the +6 successes.
let's use a more likely approach.
6 Dice in Pistols and Assualt rifles, short range, 9m dmg on both, target has 5/3 armor
6 dice at a target number 4 gets you 3 successes, with a 4 needed for success to dodge.
now assuming they roll 4 dice to dodge, they get 2 successes. then 4 body dice on average gets 2 more... target takes a M wound.
1 3 round burst from the SM, assuming only 1 point of recoil compensation (much likely more) would be a target number of 5, gaining 2 successes. 4 dice to dodge gets 1 success, and soaking the 12s at a target number 7 gets you maybe 1 more. So the target takes a Serious wound.
That is by FAR a more model approach to fire more vs well. If your characters (both player and non) are NOT dodging then yes... one good bullet is better. But with dodging... MORE IS BETTER!
You could increase the effectivness of multiple shooters by limiting the amount of damage a character can resist in a combat turn.
Instead of resisting with full body for every hit characters have a damage resistance pool equal to body that replenishes every combat turn. If a body 6 person resists one hit with 6 dice he has nothing left to resist a second hit with. He can instead choose to only resist with 3 dice and save 3 for a secon hit.
The result is that it is much easier to die when facing multiple opponets. 4 uncybered mundanes with hold ou pistols can hurt a body 15 troll just by shooting him 8 times.
Instead of resisting with full body for every hit characters have a damage resistance pool equal to body that replenishes every combat turn. If a body 6 person resists one hit with 6 dice he has nothing left to resist a second hit with. He can instead choose to only resist with 3 dice and save 3 for a secon hit.
The result is that it is much easier to die when facing multiple opponets. 4 uncybered mundanes with hold ou pistols can hurt a body 15 troll just by shooting him 8 times.
I would have bet vital parts of my anatomy that was on the ranged combat table...
i've seen it before as well. can't find it now, of course.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| You could increase the effectivness of multiple shooters by limiting the amount of damage a character can resist in a combat turn. Instead of resisting with full body for every hit characters have a damage resistance pool equal to body that replenishes every combat turn. If a body 6 person resists one hit with 6 dice he has nothing left to resist a second hit with. He can instead choose to only resist with 3 dice and save 3 for a secon hit. The result is that it is much easier to die when facing multiple opponets. 4 uncybered mundanes with hold ou pistols can hurt a body 15 troll just by shooting him 8 times. |
Um, doesn't the combat pool represent this already..?
Actually my point was to find an alternative to the awful increase in Power when autofire is used...
Let's take a simple example: a bullet proof jacket is supposed to stop a bullet, right?
In the game, if I shoot a single assault rifle (8M) round at someone (a plain John Doe, not one our regular street monsters) wearing a reinforced jacket witha single success (just for the sake of testing his armor) he must get 3s on his Body test and will porbably end up with a light wound. Rather realistic so far...
Let's say I fire a short burst in the same conditions (11G). Body test TN goes up to 6 and our nice guinea pig ends up with a Serious wound...not so realistic in my humble opinion: in real life I'm sure our guy would get bruises and maybe would be KO, but not seriously injured (needing up to 30 days in a hospital...come on)
With 6 bullets, the body test needs 9s...and our guy is plain Dead ! Unrealistic!
Remember I'm talking about filedtesting the armor jacket (no bullet in the head and such, just one success on the combat test, no dodging...)
Conclusion the rules about armor in SR are flawed...but then again that's just an opimion...
Let's take a simple example: a bullet proof jacket is supposed to stop a bullet, right?
In the game, if I shoot a single assault rifle (8M) round at someone (a plain John Doe, not one our regular street monsters) wearing a reinforced jacket witha single success (just for the sake of testing his armor) he must get 3s on his Body test and will porbably end up with a light wound. Rather realistic so far...
Let's say I fire a short burst in the same conditions (11G). Body test TN goes up to 6 and our nice guinea pig ends up with a Serious wound...not so realistic in my humble opinion: in real life I'm sure our guy would get bruises and maybe would be KO, but not seriously injured (needing up to 30 days in a hospital...come on)
With 6 bullets, the body test needs 9s...and our guy is plain Dead ! Unrealistic!
Remember I'm talking about filedtesting the armor jacket (no bullet in the head and such, just one success on the combat test, no dodging...)
Conclusion the rules about armor in SR are flawed...but then again that's just an opimion...
| QUOTE (Ombre) |
| Let's take a simple example: a bullet proof jacket is supposed to stop a bullet, right? In the game, if I shoot a single assault rifle (8M) round at someone (a plain John Doe, not one our regular street monsters) wearing a reinforced jacket witha single success (just for the sake of testing his armor) he must get 3s on his Body test and will porbably end up with a light wound. Rather realistic so far... Let's say I fire a short burst in the same conditions (11G). Body test TN goes up to 6 and our nice guinea pig ends up with a Serious wound...not so realistic in my humble opinion: in real life I'm sure our guy would get bruises and maybe would be KO, but not seriously injured (needing up to 30 days in a hospital...come on) With 6 bullets, the body test needs 9s...and our guy is plain Dead ! Unrealistic! |
1) No, an Armored Jacket should probably not be proof against assault rifles. IRL, that requires rigid armor plates in a flexible armor vest, which can only reliably protect a 10" x 12" (25cm x 30cm) area in a person's chest and back and, depending on materials used, can weigh anywhere between 4kg and 10kg for the vest + chest&back plates. The fact that an Armored Jacket is so effective against rifles in SR is a quirk of the multi-use, poorly balanced Power rating and lack of other determining factors for penetration with standard ammo.
2) Even if you had a full armored jacket that were somehow miraculously capable of stopping assault rifle rounds, you could still get hit in the legs, neck and head and could certainly be killed from damage to those areas. The area hit is also abstracted into _all_ the rolls in the attacking sequence, not just Attack and Dodge tests.
3) With a 3-round burst, the likelihood of getting hit in an unprotected area rises dramatically. Not only that, but 2 hits at the same spot with an assault rifle into any personal armor will guarantee penetration. Thus if you manage to actually hit a person 2 or 3 times with the assault rifle, unless the target is fully armored from head to toe, he's quite likely to be screwed.
4) Hitting someone with 6(!) assault rifle rounds is pretty fricken lethal. Again, 2 or more hits at the same spot guarantee penetration, and the likelihood of hitting the unprotected legs, neck and head is very good indeed.
Now, admittedly, in some extreme cases the power increase seems a tad silly -- such as the Light Military Armor Suit vs. Assault Rifle FA situation. However, I don't really have a problem with that, since I break up all autofire into 3-round (or sometimes 4, 5 or 6-round) bursts, and to an extent the power increase for autofire makes perfect sense, as explained above.
| QUOTE |
| However, I don't really have a problem with that, since I break up all autofire into 3-round (or sometimes 4, 5 or 6-round) bursts, and to an extent the power increase for autofire makes perfect sense, as explained above. |
What do you use to determine that division between 3, 4, 5 or 6 shot bursts?
One of the other lethal features of full auto and burst fire is the +1 TN to dodge per 3 shots, which is sometimes the only way to hit a rigged missile or such. However, I've considered breaking FA into bursts as well.
All fully automatic fire in an action is divided evenly into 10 bursts, except that no burst can be less than 3 rounds. I also use house ruled rates of fire, so that all RoFs are per CT and the amount you can fire per action = RoF/CT/# of actions.
Character with 1 action firing a LMG with a RoF of 1200/min (60/CT) cyclically = 10 bursts of 6
Character with 3 actions firing the same = 3 x 3+3+3+3+3+5
Character with 1 action firing a LMG with a RoF of 1200/min (60/CT) cyclically = 10 bursts of 6
Character with 3 actions firing the same = 3 x 3+3+3+3+3+5
Ok i rather be shot with one bullet than a 3 shot burst cluster in my chest =\ you know.. one of those bullets could find that one spot that doesn't have the ballistic plate.. or it could hit my neck or something...
I am sorry.. a 3 shot burts is pretty freakin leathal no mater how padded up you are. Heck this is my philospy.. if you don't like the system.. then either house rule.. or don't play it.. its that simple. I like the system, its simple, everybody that plays SR knows it.. and it keeps things universal.
I am sorry.. a 3 shot burts is pretty freakin leathal no mater how padded up you are. Heck this is my philospy.. if you don't like the system.. then either house rule.. or don't play it.. its that simple. I like the system, its simple, everybody that plays SR knows it.. and it keeps things universal.
| QUOTE |
| if you don't like the system.. then either house rule.. |
Seems to me that is exactly what Ombre is trying to do. What's wrong with that?
I agree w/ the house rule thing, but I'd like to argue the "semi" abstract nature of the Fire Arms rules as well. If I'm rationalizing this right (not looking at a book right now), getting nailed w/ full auto does not mean that every bullet strikes you. It could if that's how you want to explain the damage level that is inflicted. In my understanding, you could also say a hail of gunfire is just tougher to dodge, plus you have a greater chance of catching one in a bad spot (not being able to soak the damage down.) The wicked recoil penalties make it tough to nail someone (I know there are counters to this, but it is usually pretty rare in my game.) And hey, you need some way to take down a friggin troll with armor. 
My opinion is that I guess it's not so bad of a house rule, but there's really no point for it. The current rules seem to work well enough as they are, and the only problem you seem to have stemming from them is due to your misunderstanding of how they work.
There is nothing wrong with a salariman being able to achieve 14D with an AK and greasing a runner. If the runner is in a position where a salariman can hit them with a full burst, they're boned, because it does not take a lot of skill to hold down the trigger and spray lead (although with that salaryman's probably skill, it's unlikely he'll do it well).
As has been said before, combat in SR in highly abstracted. That's why while one shot from an assualt rifle might do 6S, but for a single burst, the target doesn't have to worry about 6S three times. The increased power represents the fact that with more bullets coming at the target, their is an increased chance of them getting hurt (soft tissue damage, chink in the armor, whatever you want to say happens). Taking damage does not nessasarily mean that a hole was blown through the target's armor. Your Humanis example was wearing a lined coat in the example. If someone tries to put six slugs into the same space he's filling, there's a good chance that one of those is going to hit his head, or his legs, or a hand, or break a rib even through the armor. Rather than bogging combat down further with hit locations, or variable armor (did he button his coat up? Otherwise he has a big unarmored stripe down the middle of his torso), more bullets are represented by a higher power rating.
As I said before, your house rule isn't bad, it just has no purpose.
There is nothing wrong with a salariman being able to achieve 14D with an AK and greasing a runner. If the runner is in a position where a salariman can hit them with a full burst, they're boned, because it does not take a lot of skill to hold down the trigger and spray lead (although with that salaryman's probably skill, it's unlikely he'll do it well).
As has been said before, combat in SR in highly abstracted. That's why while one shot from an assualt rifle might do 6S, but for a single burst, the target doesn't have to worry about 6S three times. The increased power represents the fact that with more bullets coming at the target, their is an increased chance of them getting hurt (soft tissue damage, chink in the armor, whatever you want to say happens). Taking damage does not nessasarily mean that a hole was blown through the target's armor. Your Humanis example was wearing a lined coat in the example. If someone tries to put six slugs into the same space he's filling, there's a good chance that one of those is going to hit his head, or his legs, or a hand, or break a rib even through the armor. Rather than bogging combat down further with hit locations, or variable armor (did he button his coat up? Otherwise he has a big unarmored stripe down the middle of his torso), more bullets are represented by a higher power rating.
As I said before, your house rule isn't bad, it just has no purpose.
| QUOTE (Ombre @ Feb 19 2005, 02:44 PM) |
| Am I the only one here thinking that automatic weapons are way too powerful when compared to semi-automatic guns? |
Of course they're going to be more powerful. THEY'RE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. Besides dishing more lead in the same amount of time, they're usually a higher caliber too.
| QUOTE |
| With 6 bullets, the body test needs 9s...and our guy is plain Dead ! Unrealistic! |
Are you serious? You don't think 6 bullets in the chest is deadly?
| QUOTE |
| a bullet proof jacket is supposed to stop a bullet, right? |
Yes, but SR doesn't have bulletproof jackets. It has armored jackets. If you want bulletproof, get hardened armor.
| QUOTE |
| The point here is that in the standard rule an overstressed NRA-contributing-sarariman with an AK can fire a 14D long burst. With a Dodge TN of 6, even a seasoned runner can get wasted. since the Body test would have an average TN of 8 (considering 6 Ballistic pts)... |
Yes, a long burst fired by just about anyone can kill just about anyone else. I miss the part where that's unrealistic.
Assault rifles and other automatic weapons are going to kick ass. That's what they're for! That's the whole point! If your game can't handle the extra juice, limit their availability... severely. Coming up with overly complicated house rules seems unnecessary to me.
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| Of course they're going to be more powerful. THEY'RE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. Besides dishing more lead in the same amount of time, they're usually a higher caliber too. |
Er, wha?
| QUOTE (Smiley) |
| Yes, a long burst fired by just about anyone can kill just about anyone else. I miss the part where that's unrealistic. |
I'm not defending Ombre, largely because, at least for the most part, I agree with you, but I think it's worth pointing out that a long burst fired by most people will miss just about anthing.
A guy walked into a Best Buy with an AK near where a friend of mine's going to school and hosed the crowd (details were sketchy, so I have no idea how much ammunition was involved; could be 30, could be 75; all I know is he never got to reload). Guy managed to hit exactly two people, and only one of them really got hurt (I don't know what happened to him; I know he survived, but I don't know if he kept his leg or not). Before he could reload, he got tackled by employees.
Well...guess I'm the only one dissatisfied 
As Arethusa pointed out, if you have ever fired an assault rifle in full-auto mode (I have , "thanks" to 10 month of military service) you'll realize that your 6 bullets won't hit in the same spot as some of you seem to think, or even won't hit the target...
Of course, having played SR since the first edition, I realize the abstract nature of the system...and of course I fully agree with the fact that whenever you get sprayed by autofire, chances increase that you catch a slug in the head, legs or whatever unprotected part you can think of...
That's exactly why I agree with the Damage Level increase....which I keep in my "unnecessary house rule"
But not with the Power increase which is ridiculous in my opinion, as stated in my first post.
As for protections in the game being reinforced but not bulletproof...I guess that materials used in 50 years from now will porbably be more efficent that today's kevlar and such...how would you explain personal Hardened Armor otherwise?
I do think that automatic weapons should be more lethal and that's why I suggest the 1 bullet/1 bonus die rule...after all, in Shadowrun, damage stems from the number of successes, doesn'it?
As Arethusa pointed out, if you have ever fired an assault rifle in full-auto mode (I have , "thanks" to 10 month of military service) you'll realize that your 6 bullets won't hit in the same spot as some of you seem to think, or even won't hit the target...
Of course, having played SR since the first edition, I realize the abstract nature of the system...and of course I fully agree with the fact that whenever you get sprayed by autofire, chances increase that you catch a slug in the head, legs or whatever unprotected part you can think of...
That's exactly why I agree with the Damage Level increase....which I keep in my "unnecessary house rule"
But not with the Power increase which is ridiculous in my opinion, as stated in my first post.
As for protections in the game being reinforced but not bulletproof...I guess that materials used in 50 years from now will porbably be more efficent that today's kevlar and such...how would you explain personal Hardened Armor otherwise?
I do think that automatic weapons should be more lethal and that's why I suggest the 1 bullet/1 bonus die rule...after all, in Shadowrun, damage stems from the number of successes, doesn'it?
Ombre, you aren't the only one who is dissatisfied. As someone who's spent some time working for Uncle Sam as a "small projectile interceptor" (read: Infantryman), I feel the Auto-Fire rules are seriously lacking.
It seems to me that the creators of SR sorta missed the boat when it comes to what automatic fire is really used for. Thankfully, they managed to fill in some of the holes with the searching fire and suppressive fire rules. However, to me this still hasn't solved the total problem.
Currently, I'm working on some home-brew rules for autofire that should stay a lot closer to RL, while still being abstract enough to fit into the SR rules paradigm AND not bog the game down with excessive dice rolling.
And for those who think it's difficult for someone to hit a target with autofire, I suggsted checking out this, this, and this.
At the end of the first video (in the slow motion part), it looks like the shooter fires off most of the magazine (~27 rounds, give or take). And in the second video, the shooter fires for about 8 solid seconds. Now, without seeing the targets they were shooting at, once can only guess how accurate that fire was. But if you ask me, it looks like they kept things pretty tight. At 20-30 meters, a human sized target would have probably been swiss cheese. And even the guy with the assault rifle in the 3rd video (with visibly more recoil) seems to be able to stay relatively on target.
I should get some test time with my autofire house rules tonight, so I'll let you guys know how well they work out.
It seems to me that the creators of SR sorta missed the boat when it comes to what automatic fire is really used for. Thankfully, they managed to fill in some of the holes with the searching fire and suppressive fire rules. However, to me this still hasn't solved the total problem.
Currently, I'm working on some home-brew rules for autofire that should stay a lot closer to RL, while still being abstract enough to fit into the SR rules paradigm AND not bog the game down with excessive dice rolling.
And for those who think it's difficult for someone to hit a target with autofire, I suggsted checking out this, this, and this.
At the end of the first video (in the slow motion part), it looks like the shooter fires off most of the magazine (~27 rounds, give or take). And in the second video, the shooter fires for about 8 solid seconds. Now, without seeing the targets they were shooting at, once can only guess how accurate that fire was. But if you ask me, it looks like they kept things pretty tight. At 20-30 meters, a human sized target would have probably been swiss cheese. And even the guy with the assault rifle in the 3rd video (with visibly more recoil) seems to be able to stay relatively on target.
I should get some test time with my autofire house rules tonight, so I'll let you guys know how well they work out.
In the 3rd video, when the guy is firing the Shrike cyclically, he's spraying all over the damn place. I'd be very surprised if more than 1 in 4 rounds would have ended up in a human-sized target at 30 meters, and you have to assume that's really good with that weapon or they probably wouldn't have chosen that shot for the video clip.
I'm definitely not saying all fully automatic fire has to be completely inaccurate though, I've done enough shooting to know that's far from the truth. And do share your house rules once you're comfortable with them (or before, in the unlikely scenario that you want criticism on them)-
I'm definitely not saying all fully automatic fire has to be completely inaccurate though, I've done enough shooting to know that's far from the truth. And do share your house rules once you're comfortable with them (or before, in the unlikely scenario that you want criticism on them)-
You make a good point about the Shrike gunner AE, but I would be happy with a 25% hit ratio while standing up and firing a weapon like that. Likely that weapon is a little on the light side (prob ~9-10lbs w/ ammo), so there's more felt recoil. Firing a SAW like that would be better seeing as how your weapon is about 50% heavier.
I've always felt that belt-fed weapons are only really effective when fired from prone anyway.
As as for the house rules, let me get them into an understandable format, and I'll post them "pre-testing". And don't worry, I'm fully prepared for the hail of incoming fire once I do.
I've always felt that belt-fed weapons are only really effective when fired from prone anyway.
As as for the house rules, let me get them into an understandable format, and I'll post them "pre-testing". And don't worry, I'm fully prepared for the hail of incoming fire once I do.
| QUOTE |
| That is by FAR a more model approach to fire more vs well. If your characters (both player and non) are NOT dodging then yes... one good bullet is better. But with dodging... MORE IS BETTER! |
To a point. Change that to a burst vs. firing 10 shots and there is a huge diffence, showing that more is not always better. How much better it is depends on how much recoil compensation you have, and what TN reducers you get (smartlink, tracer rounds, etc.).
So most folks agree that when you get into a firefight things are probably not going 100% as planned.Is it that important that you feel it's ruining your games? Are things dying too fast or not fast enough? So why all the concern over BF/AF rules?
Personally, I play RPGs to get *away* from real-life not try and make my RPG mimic every nuiance of how things "should be". I say take the rules for what they are, and enjoy all the other great things SR has to offer than help us escape the everyday BS.
/ramble off.
Personally, I play RPGs to get *away* from real-life not try and make my RPG mimic every nuiance of how things "should be". I say take the rules for what they are, and enjoy all the other great things SR has to offer than help us escape the everyday BS.
/ramble off.
I'll agree that Shadorun is an "escape". But for my group, being able to maintain suspension of disbelief is very important. And because of the background of my players (and myself), we NEED the firearms rules to at least somewhat reflect the realities that we have experienced first hand. Yes, this is not something for everyone. I agree that most SR gamers could care less. But for people like myself, AE, Raygun, and few others out there, we need this stuff to make sense. And if you ask them, I'm sure their added/changed rules don't ruin their games.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| I'll agree that Shadorun is an "escape". But for my group, being able to maintain suspension of disbelief is very important. And because of the background of my players (and myself), we NEED the firearms rules to at least somewhat reflect the realities that we have experienced first hand. Yes, this is not something for everyone. I agree that most SR gamers could care less. But for people like myself, AE, Raygun, and few others out there, we need this stuff to make sense. And if you ask them, I'm sure their added/changed rules don't ruin their games. |
Oh I agree 100%. It's just odd how much the more adult players (myself included) have a rough time with the "less real" parts of an RPG. The push seems to make it fit the model of the real-world we know.
When I first started playing SR1, I just read the rules and played the game. We rarely changed the game compared to they types of changes we think of thesedays.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) | ||
Er, wha? |
Yeah, upon rereading my post from waaaay too late last night, that bit was a bit unclear... I meant that the automatic weapons are probably going to be 7.62 like an AK or 5.56 like an AR-15, as opposed to a 9mm or .38, that's all.
Even that's not really a guarantee, though. SMGs are really pretty common weapons, unless you're exclusively talking about major, modern military conflicts.
Okay...here's a primer on those full auto rules I mentioned earlier. Keep some things in mind:
#1: They have NOT been eloquently written for public consumption. If something I wrote here doesn't make sense, just ask.
#2: They have NOT been playtested. I'm sure there's a few ways to break their intent, so by all means, feel free to fold, spindle, and mutilate.
#3: I appreciate any and all constructive criticisms. And I will try to fill in any blanks in regards to how these rules will work "in-game".
Revised Auto-Fire rules for Shadowrun
Rate of fire. For most autofire weapons, I set the base RoF at 600 rounds per minute (10 rounds per second)
Auto fire takes at least one complex action to perform. To determine the maximum number of rounds the shooter can fire per complex action, divide 30 by the number of initiative passes in which that character gets to act in a single combat turn. For example:
Character A gets a 13 for initiative.
He can take a complex action on phase 13 and phase 3. Thats two complex actions, so he can fire a maximum of 15 rounds per complex action.
Character B gets a 42 for initiative.
He can take a complex action on phase 42, 32, 22, 12 and 2. That's 5 complex actions, so he can fire a maximum of 6 rounds per complex action.
Character C gets a 9 for initiative.
He can take a single complex action on phase 9. This means he can fire 30 rounds on his complex action.
For every six rounds that a character fires in this manner, the T# is reduced by one. The base damage of the weapon is NOT modified by how many rounds are fired. The only way to increase the damage is to generate more than one success. However, successes do not stage the damage like normal.
If the target is in short range, it takes 3 successes to stage up the damage.
If the target is in medium range, it takes 4 successes to stage up the damage.
If the target is in long range, it takes 5 succcesses to stage up the damage.
If the target is in extreme range, the weapon always does base damage. It cannot be staged up.
The damage can be staged down as normal.
NOTE: Pistols, or SMGs with no stock or with the stock folded require an additional success to stage up damage. This is to reflect how much harder said weapons are to control in automatic fire.
Recoil Compensation: For every two points (round down) of recoil comp on a weapon, the shooter gets to roll one extra die on the ranged combat test. The maximum number of dice that can be granted is equal to one half (round down) the shooter's ranged combat skill.
I'll tip my hat to all of you who use the same basic formula for calculating just how many rounds a particular character can fire in a single combat turn. I certainly didn't come up with it, I just stole it for my personal use.
Coming soon: ROF for Super-machine guns (HVAR, SuperMach) and mini-guns (Vindicator, etc.)
#1: They have NOT been eloquently written for public consumption. If something I wrote here doesn't make sense, just ask.
#2: They have NOT been playtested. I'm sure there's a few ways to break their intent, so by all means, feel free to fold, spindle, and mutilate.
#3: I appreciate any and all constructive criticisms. And I will try to fill in any blanks in regards to how these rules will work "in-game".
Revised Auto-Fire rules for Shadowrun
Rate of fire. For most autofire weapons, I set the base RoF at 600 rounds per minute (10 rounds per second)
Auto fire takes at least one complex action to perform. To determine the maximum number of rounds the shooter can fire per complex action, divide 30 by the number of initiative passes in which that character gets to act in a single combat turn. For example:
Character A gets a 13 for initiative.
He can take a complex action on phase 13 and phase 3. Thats two complex actions, so he can fire a maximum of 15 rounds per complex action.
Character B gets a 42 for initiative.
He can take a complex action on phase 42, 32, 22, 12 and 2. That's 5 complex actions, so he can fire a maximum of 6 rounds per complex action.
Character C gets a 9 for initiative.
He can take a single complex action on phase 9. This means he can fire 30 rounds on his complex action.
For every six rounds that a character fires in this manner, the T# is reduced by one. The base damage of the weapon is NOT modified by how many rounds are fired. The only way to increase the damage is to generate more than one success. However, successes do not stage the damage like normal.
If the target is in short range, it takes 3 successes to stage up the damage.
If the target is in medium range, it takes 4 successes to stage up the damage.
If the target is in long range, it takes 5 succcesses to stage up the damage.
If the target is in extreme range, the weapon always does base damage. It cannot be staged up.
The damage can be staged down as normal.
NOTE: Pistols, or SMGs with no stock or with the stock folded require an additional success to stage up damage. This is to reflect how much harder said weapons are to control in automatic fire.
Recoil Compensation: For every two points (round down) of recoil comp on a weapon, the shooter gets to roll one extra die on the ranged combat test. The maximum number of dice that can be granted is equal to one half (round down) the shooter's ranged combat skill.
I'll tip my hat to all of you who use the same basic formula for calculating just how many rounds a particular character can fire in a single combat turn. I certainly didn't come up with it, I just stole it for my personal use.
Coming soon: ROF for Super-machine guns (HVAR, SuperMach) and mini-guns (Vindicator, etc.)
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Even that's not really a guarantee, though. SMGs are really pretty common weapons, unless you're exclusively talking about major, modern military conflicts. |
Damn skippy. And many SMGs (HK MP5s, Steyr TMPs, UZIs, etc.) are chambered in common pistol cartridges (9mm, .40 cal, .45 ACP). "Automatic" describes the action, not necessarily the lethality.
Why don't the people who need so much more realism play another system? Role/Spacemaster is an example ofa good system for making guns devestatingly powerful, varying effects based on hit location and severity, etc.
The simple fact of the amtter is that Shadowrun is so purposefully vague on its combat rules that it can't be modified to become hyper-realistic. There's nothing wrong with that, its just the way the game was written.
The simple fact of the amtter is that Shadowrun is so purposefully vague on its combat rules that it can't be modified to become hyper-realistic. There's nothing wrong with that, its just the way the game was written.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| Why don't the people who need so much more realism play another system? |
Probably because there are very abstract, unrealistic parts of the Shadowrun system (magic, the matrix) that are difficult to adapt to other systems. In other words, it may be easier to fix Shadowrun's system to your liking than it is to apply Shadowrun's various details to another system. Regardless, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have done exactly that.
| QUOTE |
| The simple fact of the amtter is that Shadowrun is so purposefully vague on its combat rules that it can't be modified to become hyper-realistic. There's nothing wrong with that, its just the way the game was written. |
If it messes with your ability to suspend disbelief, there's something wrong. Fortunately it usually doesn't take much to fix. There are countless ways to alter the game system in order to suit a group's liking. And there's nothing wrong with that either.
Hmm...
Let me run a few samples (assuming much more Raygun like weapons):
You are walking down the street, some guy with a scorpion (6L, FA, 30 rounds) jumps out and holds the trigger down...
He has a skill of three and is using the max combat pool (6 dice)
He's unwired, but has surprise so he gets a full 30 rounds off (bit of wierdness here).
The scorpion has no stock and no recoil mods, he needs 4 successes to stage up.
as he is firing 30 rounds, he gets a -5 to his TN (lowering it to 2).
He rolls 6 dice, getting 5 succeses. You are looking at 6M...
Had he just shot you in SA mode:
1st shot 6 dice, tn 4 - 6M
2nd shot 6 dice, tn 5 - 6M
Next example:
Runner team has made a field expident SAW by getting the readily available M-23 and attaching a bipod and shock pads and gas vent 2.
Our SAW gunner sees a target at medium range and lets him have it, 12 rounds.
Skill 4, full combat poot (8 dice)
Extra dice from recoil comp:2
Medium Range Base TN 5
Smart Link -2
Target is moving +2
Autofire mod -2
Final TN 3
Rolls 10 dice, gets 6-7 successes.
Target is looking at resisting 8S
Firing a Single Aimed shot
Skill 4, full combat poot (8 dice)
Medium Range Base TN 5
Smart Link -2
Target is moving +2
Aiming -1
Final TN 4
Rolling 8 dice, 4 successes. Target is looking at 8D
Hmm, not looking very good so far.
[edit]
Since I have some spare time I'll add a few more...
Uberdeath sam is clearing a room
Base skill 8, plus 4 dice (from other stuff CP, etc)
Full 10 points of recoil comp.
Firing 6 rounds (he could fire 10, but dosen't gain anything from the extra 4 rounds)
(Notice that if he didn't need the -1TN he could just fire 2 rounds FA for the 'recoil bonus dice')
4 bonus dice from recoil comp (max of half skill)
Base TN 4
Smartlink -2
Target has cover +4
Attacker is moving +1
Lighting +1
FA bonus -1 TN
Final TN 7
Rolling 16 dice gets you 2-3 succeses, target is looking at 8M or 8S
Firing one Aimed shot
TN is still 7
rolling 12 dice, 2 successes, target is looking at 8S.
Hmm, looks like this version of FA is only really advantageous when you are slow (to get more TN modifiers with your shot and highly skilled)
Makeing the sam from teh above example have onyl one action a round (as opposed to 3) lets him get off a full 30 rounds...
Making his final TN 3
Rolling 16 dice and getting 10-11 successes, staging up three times...
[/edit]
Let me run a few samples (assuming much more Raygun like weapons):
You are walking down the street, some guy with a scorpion (6L, FA, 30 rounds) jumps out and holds the trigger down...
He has a skill of three and is using the max combat pool (6 dice)
He's unwired, but has surprise so he gets a full 30 rounds off (bit of wierdness here).
The scorpion has no stock and no recoil mods, he needs 4 successes to stage up.
as he is firing 30 rounds, he gets a -5 to his TN (lowering it to 2).
He rolls 6 dice, getting 5 succeses. You are looking at 6M...
Had he just shot you in SA mode:
1st shot 6 dice, tn 4 - 6M
2nd shot 6 dice, tn 5 - 6M
Next example:
Runner team has made a field expident SAW by getting the readily available M-23 and attaching a bipod and shock pads and gas vent 2.
Our SAW gunner sees a target at medium range and lets him have it, 12 rounds.
Skill 4, full combat poot (8 dice)
Extra dice from recoil comp:2
Medium Range Base TN 5
Smart Link -2
Target is moving +2
Autofire mod -2
Final TN 3
Rolls 10 dice, gets 6-7 successes.
Target is looking at resisting 8S
Firing a Single Aimed shot
Skill 4, full combat poot (8 dice)
Medium Range Base TN 5
Smart Link -2
Target is moving +2
Aiming -1
Final TN 4
Rolling 8 dice, 4 successes. Target is looking at 8D
Hmm, not looking very good so far.
[edit]
Since I have some spare time I'll add a few more...
Uberdeath sam is clearing a room
Base skill 8, plus 4 dice (from other stuff CP, etc)
Full 10 points of recoil comp.
Firing 6 rounds (he could fire 10, but dosen't gain anything from the extra 4 rounds)
(Notice that if he didn't need the -1TN he could just fire 2 rounds FA for the 'recoil bonus dice'
)4 bonus dice from recoil comp (max of half skill)
Base TN 4
Smartlink -2
Target has cover +4
Attacker is moving +1
Lighting +1
FA bonus -1 TN
Final TN 7
Rolling 16 dice gets you 2-3 succeses, target is looking at 8M or 8S
Firing one Aimed shot
TN is still 7
rolling 12 dice, 2 successes, target is looking at 8S.
Hmm, looks like this version of FA is only really advantageous when you are slow (to get more TN modifiers with your shot and highly skilled)
Makeing the sam from teh above example have onyl one action a round (as opposed to 3) lets him get off a full 30 rounds...
Making his final TN 3
Rolling 16 dice and getting 10-11 successes, staging up three times...
[/edit]
Seems I wasn't clear again...
Actuallythe whole point in my house rule was not because of lack of realism or suchlike...it's just a question of game balance and character-lethality...things are way too deadly in my opinion. I don't like seeing PCs shredded to pulp without having a chance, and I don't like seeing the bad guy wasted in an Initiative Pass (either as a gamemaster or as a player)...
My point was for the sake of the cinematic feel, not for realism...
Actuallythe whole point in my house rule was not because of lack of realism or suchlike...it's just a question of game balance and character-lethality...things are way too deadly in my opinion. I don't like seeing PCs shredded to pulp without having a chance, and I don't like seeing the bad guy wasted in an Initiative Pass (either as a gamemaster or as a player)...
My point was for the sake of the cinematic feel, not for realism...
Crusher Bob:
Thanks for the samples. I wasn't able to play test this last night like I wanted to, so I still don't have any "in-game" data. Let me tell you what my concept is, and maybe you can give me some tips on implementation.
First off, firing full auto should make it easier to hit your target, not harder. However, you aren't likely to hit the target with every round, and are more likely to simply wing it, so damage should NOT be as great as with a single, well aimed shot.
Secondly, I autofire needs to be something of a trade off. You put more bullets in the air, with increased chance to hit your target while lessening the chance to get an actual lethal shot. To me, this is something that a trained shooter is going to use if his target is particularly difficule to hit.
Thirdly, I haven't come up with a good way to work around the initiative system. A wired to max samurai SHOULD be able to spend three seconds holding down the trigger, spewing lead all over the place, thereby getting better mods to his T#.
I don't know...maybe we can let a faster character burn more than one complex action firing full-auto so they can get the benefits of lower TNs.
I'm not trying to make automatic fire more lethal. I just think it needs to work a little differently than in the books.
Perhaps I should let the damage stage normally, or maybe change it from -1 TN/6 rounds to -1 TN/4 rounds? Ideas, suggestions, flames?
Thanks for the samples. I wasn't able to play test this last night like I wanted to, so I still don't have any "in-game" data. Let me tell you what my concept is, and maybe you can give me some tips on implementation.
First off, firing full auto should make it easier to hit your target, not harder. However, you aren't likely to hit the target with every round, and are more likely to simply wing it, so damage should NOT be as great as with a single, well aimed shot.
Secondly, I autofire needs to be something of a trade off. You put more bullets in the air, with increased chance to hit your target while lessening the chance to get an actual lethal shot. To me, this is something that a trained shooter is going to use if his target is particularly difficule to hit.
Thirdly, I haven't come up with a good way to work around the initiative system. A wired to max samurai SHOULD be able to spend three seconds holding down the trigger, spewing lead all over the place, thereby getting better mods to his T#.
I don't know...maybe we can let a faster character burn more than one complex action firing full-auto so they can get the benefits of lower TNs.
I'm not trying to make automatic fire more lethal. I just think it needs to work a little differently than in the books.
Perhaps I should let the damage stage normally, or maybe change it from -1 TN/6 rounds to -1 TN/4 rounds? Ideas, suggestions, flames?
TheOneRonin You just described the Searching Fire rules in the CC more or less to a T.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| And for those who think it's difficult for someone to hit a target with autofire, I suggsted checking out this, this, and this. |
Just because that proves that there are people who can do it, doesn't mean it's not hard.
Repeatedly putting 3-4 round bursts into a target is relatively easy - if you're just looking to put all rounds somewhere in the target relatively close to the center of mass, and not for tight groups. Anyone who can shoot semi-auto guns competently will be able to to do it after they see where their first couple of bursts hit and they realize they have to compensate.
Keeping the group tight, or keeping a long burst on target, requires a lot experience and practice - which most people will never acquire, if only because of the amount and cost of ammo involved.
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
Just because that proves that there are people who can do it, doesn't mean it's not hard. Repeatedly putting 3-4 round bursts into a target is relatively easy - if you're just looking to put all rounds somewhere in the target relatively close to the center of mass, and not for tight groups. Anyone who can shoot semi-auto guns competently will be able to to do it after they see where their first couple of bursts hit and they realize they have to compensate. Keeping the group tight, or keeping a long burst on target, requires a lot experience and practice - which most people will never acquire, if only because of the amount and cost of ammo involved. |
I didn't say anything about keeping relatively tight groups while firing full auto. Shadowun core rules make it almost impossible to even wing a target on full auto unless you have an ungodly amount of RC. In my personal experience, it's simply easier to get at least a glancing hit with full auto fire than the rules present it. Yes, firing 20 rounds from an assault rifle at a moving target AND trying to get all 20 rounds inside a 3" diameter ciricle is practically impossible. I've never disputed that.
And yes, I do agree that it takes a considerable amount of ammunition to practice with automatic fire. I just don't think you need to be crack shot to be able to hit a target with it.
Now as for Seaching fire...I haven't opened up my Cannon Companion in a while, so I suppose I'm just trying to rebuild the wheel.
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| Now as for Seaching fire...I haven't opened up my Cannon Companion in a while, so I suppose I'm just trying to rebuild the wheel. |
Just a quick recap of Searching Fire:
* Must use 6 bullets or more on full auto
* Every three bullets gives you +1 die for the attack test
* No increases in damage level for autofire
* All other modifiers still apply
It's probably better to use Suppressive Fire than Searching Fire, but both rules are there for folks who want to hit more often with full auto.
| QUOTE (shadowland house rules) |
| Rather than making a roll at a high, all-or-nothing TN, autofire is made at a lower TN. The number of rounds which hit the target is determined by the number of successes made on the attack roll. Burstfire is unchanged; use the rules in SR3. SR3 pages 115-16 Replace the entire text under Full-Auto Mode with the following: The character, when making an autofire attack, chooses the number of rounds to fire at the target or targets, dividing the number between multiple targets in any fashion desired. The minimum number of rounds that can be fired at a single target is three. Note that a burst "walked" across multiple targets counts as multiple attacks, with multiple associated rolls. The attacker expends a complex action and makes a standard ranged attack roll, assessing all applicable modifiers except recoil, and applying an additional "autofire" penalty, +2, to the TN#. The first success on the attack roll indicates that the defender risks being struck by a number of rounds equal to 1 plus the weapon's recoil compensation rating, up to a maximum equal to the number of rounds fired at the target. Every additional success beyond the first, and up to the total number of rounds fired at the target (minus recoil compensation) indicates the target risks being struck by another round. Up until this critical point, for purposes of dodging and resisting damage, the attacker is treated as having achieved only one success (sufficient to hit) on their ranged combat test. Additional successes, beyond this point, are used to stage damage normally. The defender's TN# for any dodge test made is determined by the number of rounds fired at them by the attacker, while their TN# for damage resistance reflects only the rounds from the a autofire burst which actually hit. Each round which hits raises the Power of the attack by +1, and every three bullets which hit (round down) raise the Damage Level of the attack by 1. |
| QUOTE (Ombre) |
| Seems I wasn't clear again... Actuallythe whole point in my house rule was not because of lack of realism or suchlike...it's just a question of game balance and character-lethality...things are way too deadly in my opinion. I don't like seeing PCs shredded to pulp without having a chance, and I don't like seeing the bad guy wasted in an Initiative Pass (either as a gamemaster or as a player)... My point was for the sake of the cinematic feel, not for realism... |
If that's the case then just go back to the SR 2nd Edition rule concerning Combat Pool. In SR2 your Pools refreshed on your action, not once every time you roll initiative. That way your baddies have more Combat Pool to use, and so do your players, which makes the firefights last longer/less lethal.
I'm thinking switching back to this rule myself after an NPC that was meant to be a somewhat major baddie got geeked really quickly because a player was using APDS in a Ruger T-Bolt and the baddie wasn't able to dodge/resist well, despite having a huge Body (15). When I used to run SR2 I established a house rule for dodging bullets, too, because, honestly, dodging bullets should be damn near impossible. It went like this:
Initiative die is 1d6: TN to dodge bullets is 10
Initiative die is 2d6: TN to dodge bullets is 8
Initiative die is 3d6: TN to dodge bullets is 6
Initiative die is 4d6: TN to dodge bullets is 4
Initiative die is 5d6 (cybermancy): TN to dodge bullets is 2
*Keep in mind I don't allow any initiative enhancing cyber/bioware to stack with any other (i.e. no Boosted Reflexes with Synaptic Accelerator)
Two things:
1) a body of 15 isn't all that impressive. A troll can get in the high 20's low 30's If memory serves.
2) You don't actually dodge bullets, that's impossible. You make an effort to not be in front of the gun when it goes off. That's what dodging represents.
1) a body of 15 isn't all that impressive. A troll can get in the high 20's low 30's If memory serves.
2) You don't actually dodge bullets, that's impossible. You make an effort to not be in front of the gun when it goes off. That's what dodging represents.
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