Barbed wire and its lethality, 5p you have to be kidding me Options

[Doc Chase]

I'll have to edit it a bit more, but as a rough draft I'm liking this.

Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why bother limiting it to concertina?

When in doubt, use a bangalore. Mostly because bangalore is fun to say.

Got a delorean blocking your path? Use a bangalore!

A Bangalore is fun that way, yes...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'll have to edit it a bit more, but as a rough draft I'm liking this.

Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"

Totally Awesome Doc... All of it...

[TeknoDragon]

Traditional barbed wire, not quite as bad as 5P for absentmindedly walking into it. Still have a scar at the base of my left thumb from when I tripped and found some half-buried in a driveway, though.
Sounds more like concertina wire, as other posters have mentioned.
Electrified wire, ranges from 1S per combat round (the sort for keeping animals penned in/out) to 'hook it to the outlet, put a 100W incandescent bulb in series to keep the breaker from tripping' redneckery.

A higher level of nasty, of course, would be electrified monowire...

[Stahlseele]

it would melt.

[Xahn Borealis]

Possessed monowire, with ItNW and Energy Aura and Concealment...

[pbangarth]

I have little experience with coiled concertina wire. Is there much spring in the wire? A whipping wire with razor blades could be nasty.

Aside:

[ Spoiler ]

I ask because a lifetime ago I worked a year in a wire factory that was a death trap for the workers. My first day on the job I was cutting 1/4 inch, coiled steel wire. Nobody bothered to tell me to hold the free end close to where I was cutting it. The free, razor-sharp end whipped up at amazing speed, slid along the bridge of my nose (nice little scar) under my safety glasses and tore them off. Had it been one inch either way, it would have still gone under the glasses and taken an eye. Or maybe penetrated the eye socket into my brain.

"Oh yeah," said the foreman with the bandage. "Remember to hold the wire close to where you are cutting it." I remembered. I was young, and needed the money, so I stayed. During that one year, what I know of: guys got burned with acid, clothes set on fire by a butt welder joining two pieces of wire, a ton of steel wire fell on my leg (fortunately shooting it out to the side rather than crushing it, though my knee was always weak after that), and one guy got pulled into a wire mesh baler up to his hips. (The only way they had thought of to get the bulge in the middle of the 20 foot wide mesh to fit into the baler as you started a new roll was to get up on the mesh and jump on the bulge.)

[WhiskeyMac]

Being a combat engineer, laying concertina wire and using bangalores is all part of my job. Bangalores are pretty bad-ass and seeing them explode and the effects of them right in front of your eyes is awesome. Laying wire sucks though. Especially the pounding pickets part ... screw that.

[TeknoDragon]

it would melt.

Not necessarily. Depends on the melting point of the wire, and how well it conducts. Though, a tiny current would be useful enough, because I know I'd like to know if someone cut through the monowire fencing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Being a combat engineer, laying concertina wire and using bangalores is all part of my job. Bangalores are pretty bad-ass and seeing them explode and the effects of them right in front of your eyes is awesome. Laying wire sucks though. Especially the pounding pickets part ... screw that.

I will agree with you heree... Laying Concertina Wire absolutely sucks...
And Bangalores are just Awesome... I wish that I could still play with them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Once upon a midnight dreary, runners argued, weak and weary,
O'er a very thick and bogglingly locked reinforced steel door,
While they bickered, nearly snapping, suddenly there came a flapping,
As if someone most gently landing, landing on the field before.
"'Tis CorpSec," the Rigger muttered, "landing on the field before--
Loose it all, and nothing more."

Runners readied weapons varied, lasers, rifles, guns named Barry,
Munitions only known of in the annals of forgotten lore,
As their rotodrone was tracking, triggers were squeezed close to cracking,
They saw it was their man Raven, returning from the general store.
He extended a tube that could destroy the reinforced steel door--
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."

The company's being audited today, so writing this poem, titled '600 Seconds', is probably not the best way to spend my time.

To the door the bomb was sticking, quickly was the timer ticking,
The runners bolted away from the lonely reinforced steel door,
Hacker scrambled, quickly thinking, corporate response times were sinking,
Quelching alarms regarding the exploding reinforced steel door,
A gaping hole was all that remained of the reinforced steel door,
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."

I'll have to edit it a bit more, but as a rough draft I'm liking this.

Once beyond, the whole team entered, weapons ready, Adept-Centered,
Closer to the file room that held their payday of nuyen galore,
No more eating soups of lentil, save that angry elemental,
A being of smoke and flame that Gator Shaman could not ignore,
"Distract it," said Gator, "And I shall banish it for evermore,"
Asked the Raven, "Bangalore?"

Is this a parody of what I think it is?
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is this a parody of what I think it is?
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not a Parody, no... It is An Homage... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Is this a parody of what I think it is?
I gotta say Doc, we better find you a girl, you have TOO MUCH free time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

She'll be here for a combined birthday bash in two weeks. That was the product of a Monster and three cups of black coffee in the span of an hour.

[kzt]

On the ground, dropping a heavy metal plate across the concertina wire kinda works too. Or even just plywood.

That's why there is supposed to be a tension wire inside the top of the concertina.

[CanRay]

Yeah, but who does a job properly any more?

[Saint Sithney]

I feel that instead the damage should be 2S for barbed wire and 3S for concertina wire.

If the damage doesn't exceed the target's armor rating, it is already converted to stun.

[Omenowl]

If the damage doesn't exceed the target's armor rating, it is already converted to stun.

Even without armor it takes several turns before you are entrapped and severely bleeding. This is why I recommended stun where most damage is a nuisance, but adds up over time. Several small cuts aren't worth physical damage especially when we are assuming 1p is at least half a pint of blood or more. With armor the assumption would be no damage, but lots of untangling yourself from the wire. I am not saying it won't cause severe damage, but just like barbed wire and horses it tends to be the reaction when caught by the wire more than the innate lethality of the wire. As for actual instances of damage with barbed wire the majority is from actually hitting the wire not the barbs initially. The barbs just make it worse if you struggle by cutting into flesh.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even without armor it takes several turns before you are entrapped and severely bleeding. This is why I recommended stun where most damage is a nuisance, but adds up over time. Several small cuts aren't worth physical damage especially when we are assuming 1p is at least half a pint of blood or more. With armor the assumption would be no damage, but lots of untangling yourself from the wire. I am not saying it won't cause severe damage, but just like barbed wire and horses it tends to be the reaction when caught by the wire more than the innate lethality of the wire. As for actual instances of damage with barbed wire the majority is from actually hitting the wire not the barbs initially. The barbs just make it worse if you struggle by cutting into flesh.

But in your scenario, it won't cause severe Damage, because you will never struggle beyond the unconsciousness brought on by filling your stun track... I go with Physical Daamge for both, and I honestly think that Concertina should move from 5p to 6p... but that is just me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. As I also said, 5P isn't hurting anyone in the setting, because they've all got that much armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

But in your scenario, it won't cause severe Damage, because you will never struggle beyond the unconsciousness brought on by filling your stun track... I go with Physical Daamge for both, and I honestly think that Concertina should move from 5p to 6p... but that is just me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You are saying it has the same lethality as a rifle in your scenario and occurs within 3 seconds.

Under my scenario the individual would probably pass out from blood loss or keep struggling and accruing damage. If they had heavy armor or thick clothing they might get hopelessly entangled, but not take any damage. It would take several rounds to severely bleed yourself out (4-8 rounds or so for a normal stat 3 human). That is fairly quick.

The reality is how often does a fatality occur with razor wire and how much damage is accrued how quickly? Biggest issue I have ever seen with barbed wire is an animal or person rushes and then struggles causing much more damage than the wire it self would cause if they stop struggling and work their way out.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm sure I already said it, but the guns get +net hits, special ammo, Called Shots…

I'm not saying you're wrong about what wires/fences *should* do. I'm saying that they're not actually lethal in SR4 (for anyone who matters).

[Omenowl]

I'm sure I already said it, but the guns get +net hits, special ammo, Called Shots…

I'm not saying you're wrong about what wires/fences *should* do. I'm saying that they're not actually lethal in SR4 (for anyone who matters).

Suppressive fire does base damage. This is like saying a garrote of razor wire is not lethal. Placement is everything. Just like a wire is much more lethal if placed at chest level with a biker or that a telephone or electrical wire will bring down an apache helicopter where bullets won't. We are talking under normal situations not the logical fallacy of using exceptions to the rule.

I am saying wires shouldn't be lethal even to our lowly squatter threat rating of 1 or even 2. It is just enough to force them to retreat or find an alternate method around it.

If we want lethal then we go monowire or electrical fence which has been intentionally left off of this thread for damage.

[Yerameyahu]

And I'm saying, the only people in the game are player characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That's not razor wire anymore, it's a garrote. Just ask SR4, see?

The point is you're addressing two problems: 'razorwire is too lethal in SR4' and 'razorwire is unrealistically non-disabling in SR4'. These are completely unrelated, and only the latter is a real problem, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And, again, +net hits is anything but an exception. It's the normal use case for that pistol's 5P. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Omenowl]

And I'm saying, the only people in the game are player characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That's not razor wire anymore, it's a garrote. Just ask SR4, see?

The point is you're addressing two problems: 'razorwire is too lethal in SR4' and 'razorwire is unrealistically non-disabling in SR4'. These are completely unrelated, and only the latter is a real problem, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And, again, +net hits is anything but an exception. It's the normal use case for that pistol's 5P. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Both are base damage hence the lethality is the same.

And yes the world is populated by PCs and NPCs. Hence make it realistic within the boundaries of said universe. We are all willing to believe bullets are dangerous and squirrels are not. It doesn't mean we have safe bullets or dangerous squirrels in SR4, but it does mean that players and GMs should expect the world to work in the majority of instances with the same physics as our own with similar items.

Please give a reasonable answer to why identical wire in SR4 should be so extraordinarily lethal compared to the modern world?

[Yerameyahu]

Nope, bullets will have net hits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's not lethal in the slightest, because everyone should have armor above 5. I'm not arguing in favor of the RAW, nor that it should be lethal, so don't ask me to defend it. It's not my problem.

Ooh, maybe it's 5P +4 AP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)