Camoflouge vs chameleon suit, Why bother with 1 over the other? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes. It. Does.

Just like your glasses and monocles come with wireless technology for free. It's a basic, fundamental aspect of the technology. Just like the color/pattern-shifting technology used in clothing and armor. They're described exactly the same way, in exactly the same areas of the rules. YOU'RE the one deciding to randomly ignore one over the other.

There is no listed cost for it for a reason.

No. It. Doesn't. (See, I can do that too...)
You just go on wearing those Blinders...

[Ol' Scratch]

"Clothing in 2072 comes with some incredible options to enhance its wearer’s quality of life. Commlinks, music players, and other electronic devices are often woven right into the fabric, powered by interwoven batteries or special fabrics with solar recharging capability. Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more commlinks. More advanced ruthenium polymer systems can take on any color the user wishes in seconds, scanning the surroundings so she can melt into the background (or stand out from a crowd)."

Price check on the mentioned "[e]lectrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features," please, complete with page references and quotes if you don't mind.

Oh wait, there isn't one and there aren't any. Because it's a standard feature of clothing. Which is why it's described as a standard feature of clothing.

And no, it's not Ruthenium Polymers. That's a specific set of rules with significantly more advanced functionality, and what they're describing in the last sentence of the quote. There is no "basic ruthenium" beyond a fluff description of how the standard feature works. "Fluff" is used to describe how the rule -- in this case, the color and pattern-changing aspects of clothing -- works. That is a rule. Black and white. Quoted and referenced countless times.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"Clothing in 2072 comes with some incredible options to enhance its wearer’s quality of life. Commlinks, music players, and other electronic devices are often woven right into the fabric, powered by interwoven batteries or special fabrics with solar recharging capability. Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more commlinks. More advanced ruthenium polymer systems can take on any color the user wishes in seconds, scanning the surroundings so she can melt into the background (or stand out from a crowd)."

Price check on the mentioned "[e]lectrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features," please, complete with page references and quotes if you don't mind.

Oh wait, there isn't one and there aren't any. Because it's a standard feature of clothing. Which is why it's described as a standard feature of clothing.

And no, it's not Ruthenium Polymers. That's a specific set of rules with significantly more advanced functionality, and what they're describing in the last sentence of the quote. There is no "basic ruthenium" beyond a fluff description of how the standard feature works. "Fluff" is used to describe how the rule -- in this case, the color and pattern-changing aspects of clothing -- works. That is a rule. Black and white. Quoted and referenced countless times.

Yes, it is Ruthenium Polymers. And it is NOT a standard feature of clothing. It is an OPTION. One that you pay for. Buy a basic clothing suit for 20 Nuyen and you will not have them. Purchase one for 3,000 Nuyen and I may or may not throw them in for you, depending upon who manufactures the suit. They are not free. There is no RULE that you are quoting. You are quoting ONLY FLUFF.

As for sufficierntly more advanced for BASIC ruthenium, your definition will still net you zero mechanical gain whatsoever. If you want an effect, you have to pay for it.

Let me highlight something you quoted for you...

Clothing in 2072 comes with some incredible options to enhance its wearer's quality of life

Note the term Options. See, it is not a STANDARD Feature of Clothing, it is an OPTIONAL One. My car comes with hundreds of Options. However, I do not get them unless I pay for them. You may have these OPTIONS in your clothing all you want. YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. The reason that you do not see a specific price in the main book is because they subsumed it into a single line item price (And left it to the GM to adjudicate, until a latrer book was introduced). Clothing costs from 20 Nueyn to 100,000 Nuyen. Now, you do the math. You want the "Options" of rutheniuum that you are talking about, you have to pay for it. It will not come stock in a suit that only costs 300 Nuyen, because the technology cost that by itself.

You want to take it further, you add more options (Cameras, processors, and Color matching softweare) and you can now have a Chameleon Suit.

Fortunately for us, we have another book that now provides all of the particulars of exactly how much ruthenium costs. So now, we can add it to anything we want. It does not change the fact that the FLUFF you are talking about PROVIDES ABSOLUTELY NO BENEFIT MECHANICALLY. You get NO modifier for changing the pattern on your clothing for hiding, because there is No modifier for that unless you are using very specific configurations of clothing (Camouflage or Chameleon Suit, or specific articles of clothing that have specifically been modded to provide such benefits). You can argue that it is free with every article of clothing you buy. But you are wrong, and I call Shennanigans on that. And if you really look deep down inside of yourself, you will have to agree. You do not get something for nothing in Shadowrun.

Nice Try, but you still fail.

Oh and official Price Check in Main Book. As Indicated above:

Clothing 0/0 - 20-100,000¥

I am sure you could have found that if you had really thought to look. Glad to be of service to you.

[Yerameyahu]

It also says nothing about camouflage effects of any kind. If you can make a Camo Suit change to a new camo setting (-2), then you can make any clothing do so. There's no mention of that anywhere, so it makes much more sense to assume neither is possible. Or, again, that you can color-change to your heart's content for zero mechanic effect.

[KarmaInferno]

All clothing can color shift.

None of it nets you the stealth bonus unless it specifically says it does.

Designer business suit: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? No.

Camouflage Suit: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? Yes, if the pattern is matched to the environment.

Chameleon Suit:: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? Yes, better than the Camouflage Suit.



-k

[Mayhem_2006]

All clothing can color shift.

None of it nets you the stealth bonus unless it specifically says it does.

Designer business suit: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? No.

Camouflage Suit: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? Yes, if the pattern is matched to the environment.

Chameleon Suit:: Color shift? Yes. Stealth bonus? Yes, better than the Camouflage Suit.



-k

Query: Why doesn't the business suit do it, if it can colour shift and you shift it to an appropriate colour pattern?

***

The argument being made to suggest that Camo can be reprogrammed applies equally to all armour. So either it can't be reprogrammed (more likely) or ALL clothing can be, makign camo redundant in the first place.

[Yerameyahu]

But, Karma, there's no rules connection between general color shifting and Camo Suit's pattern bonus. It requires a weird position that there's something very special about Camo that no other clothing (jumpsuits, anything) can equally do.

[Ol' Scratch]

Query: Why doesn't the business suit do it, if it can colour shift and you shift it to an appropriate colour pattern?

Logically it should, but by the rules it doesn't because the bonus is coming from the Camouflage Suit, not the actual pattern. Dumb as that is. Good luck trying to reason that to some of the people around here, though.

This is different from Chameleon Suits and Ruthenium Polymers, because the rules for Ruthenium Polymers grants that benefit to any armor/clothing it's applied to.

[Yerameyahu]

You shouldn't have to defend anything with 'dumb as that is', especially when it's a player munchkin-ing an extra power out of existing gear. In the frequent cases where the rules are a mess, go with the non-dumb choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You shouldn't have to defend anything with 'dumb as that is', especially when it's a player munchkin-ing an extra power out of existing gear. In the frequent cases where the rules are a mess, go with the non-dumb choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Saint Hallow]

Why do I feel like I threw gasoline & a lit flare into a room filled with butane?

After reading all the posts, seems like Chameleon Coating or Ruthenium Coating your outfit/gear is better & more cost effective then owning camouflaged clothing & gear. Someone did bring up a good point that if the gear gets damaged, will the Chameleon effect (an energy based, technological effect) or Ruthenium still work/function? There's no rules that saw otherwise.

Seems there are some technological gaps (like most sci-fi themed games/shows) where 1 aspect has jumped beyond other fields & the implications haven't been thoroughly thought through. (Case in point, Star Wars. Laser guns, FTL travel, Force Fields... but Jedi still used hend-held walkie talkies to talk to droids to handle hacking/electronic warfare for them, & no one wears anti-grav boots or use powered armor/clothing to scale walls or jump over pits.).

[CanadianWolverin...]

I really don't understand the confusion here, when I read SR4A (pg 326), it specifically says:

Camouflage Suit: A full body suit with computer-designed enviromental-pattern facismiles. All have reversible day/night patterns.

With how this future sci fi clothing is described prior to that:

Clothing in 2072 comes with some incredible options to enhance its wearer’s quality of life. Commlinks, music players, and other electronic devices are often woven right into the fabric, powered by interwoven batteries or special fabrics with solar recharging capability. Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more commlinks. More advanced ruthenium polymer systems can take on any color the user wishes in seconds, scanning the surroundings so she can melt into the background (or stand out from a crowd).

...are you seriously taking that as the computer only designed the print on the cloth and you have to take it off, turn it inside out and its still makes sense as armored? What makes it any different than something like a less effective Full Body Armor then?

I choose to think of it as a futuristic ghilli suit that is less flexible to enviromental change than the Chameleon, which I think of as essentially a Predator cloaking device or the cloak ability of the armor in the PC game Crysis whose battery doesn't run out as fast.

Why choose one over the other? To me, its because you really, really want that extra stealth dice. In which case you are probably springing for other perks as well to defeat other methods of perception.

Plus, I would think you could program the Camo to have socially acceptable patterns as well. Show up looking like one thing, leave looking a different pattern.

[Mercer]

It seems like there would be some effect on the clothing's color shifting ability from damage. Particularly if the color-changing ability is a civilian mod, it may not react to well to bullets.

Given the abilities of programmable, color-changing fabric in the write-up, it seems like there should be a step between the camo suit and the chameleon. Either an optional armor quality or a separate item that costs a little more than a standard camo suit and gives you a little variety. Personally, 1200(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is a little too expensive for a piece of armor that you would need to repurchase for every different terrain you might encounter anyway, particularly when you add in all the individual mods each piece would need. I'd rather have a base set of armor (form-fit, vest and so on), and then wear terrain appropriate camouflage (whether it be a ghillie suit or tuxedo) over it.

[KarmaInferno]

Funny, I always read the "All have reversible day/night patterns" as meaning the current-day version of "reversible" clothing - you take your jacket or pants or whatever and turn it inside-out, and there's a different pattern on that side.




-k

[Fabe]

I agree with Tymeaus when he says that all the fancy stuff is optional and not included with every piece of clothing but I do disagree that adding electrochromic threads,flexible screens and woven fiber optics will drive the price into the thousands, I mean just look at what you can buy at Think Geek today in the real world, we can expect better by 2072. I'm also going to have to agree with Ol' Scratch, Ruthenium Polymers are different then the other stuff that you can add to clothing.

[Yerameyahu]

You're agreeing with TJ, then: his point (AFAIK) was that the 'advanced' stuff (-4) is due to the cameras/processor package… and the cost.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

You shouldn't have to defend anything with 'dumb as that is', especially when it's a player munchkin-ing an extra power out of existing gear. In the frequent cases where the rules are a mess, go with the non-dumb choice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok, seriously the non-dumb choice is usually the most flexible one.

However, we have a clear case of missing rules with just a suggestion in the fluff, so it's really not a matter of interpretation, it's a matter of missing content - i.e. rules for lesser ruthenium. So basically you just need to create a price point for that. You could go with the price of that second skin suit.

That and, I have to admit, the non-dumb choice would be to simply give everyone who can download a camo pattern and apply it to a given piece of clothing the same bonus as the camo suit. I've never given these special "computer generated" patterns any special credit - they are just patterns. And in any case, anything electronic can be copied, somehow. And clearly the game balance won't suddenly die just becomes someone can turn his business suit into urban camo in a jiffy. He will still need something for his head (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[3278]

It seems unreasonable to put this much effort into arguing over what the rules say; clearly, the rules are uneven and don't all fit together well. So why not focus on what the rules should be, on what rules might be most desirable, and why?

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I was saying, Brainpiercing: if you say all clothing is 'smart', you have to say that it's all like Camo Suit. You can't use this fluff to upgrade *just* Camo Suit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mercer]

There's also the down side to color-changing camo-- that once it gets hacked you're running around in a glowing, neon-pink onesie for the rest of the combat.

It would seem like the benefit to color-changing fabrics might be something as simple as it's never inappropriate. It may not be capable of giving you a benefit for camo, but it never gives you the penalty either.

One thing that has never made sense to me is that if the camo suit gives you a penalty if your in the wrong terrain, then almost all clothing should give you a penalty almost all the time. In my mind (and perhaps only there, but accompany me on this flight of fancy), you're better off with a suit of jungle cammies in a dark alley than you are in a white t-shirt. If a GM gave me the "inappropriate camo" penalty for a white t-shirt I'd understand, but it'd still technically be a house rule.

[Falconer]

I'm with TJ as well. I've done this in the past... paid extra to add ruthenium to a camo suit. (not the full fledged chameleon system). It makes sense, I don't believe it's bulit-in for free... otherwise there would be no cause for the camo to be reversible.

Paying an extra 1000 for the Ruthenium isn't all that expensive in the large scheme of things considering the benefits it can provide.

What makes the chameleon system special is the cameras and sensors... which change your coloring to draw what's behind you on your front so that people can 'see' through you. Without all that advanced stuff, there's no reason you should be able to simply swap out camo themes with a little bit of work and an edit program. (or change to a work jumpsuit with Joe's Plumbing monogrammed on the back... nothing like a good disguise).

[Ol' Scratch]

House rules are fine. But that's exactly what it is; a house rule.

By the rules, all clothing is assumed to have these properties. It's not instant color/pattern-shifting, but it can be reprogrammed. And just like how all cyberware is assumed to be wireless by default, you can opt to not have this property in your clothing if you feel its inappropriate (such as with super cheap clothing like Flats) or you just don't want your clothes getting hacked. But by default, every single outfit in the game has it unless stated otherwise, either directly or implied. No extra cost required, just like there's no extra cost for your implants being wireless.

Whether you can apply a camouflage pattern to normal clothing in order to duplicate the benefits of a Camouflage Suit is a completely different debate and has no bearing on that basic rule. By a strict adherence to the rules, however, it's not possible because the bonus is coming from the Camouflage Suit itself. To fix this, "camouflage" should simply be an armor modification option with the Camouflage Suit being an example of armor that comes with it. (To be honest, I think it should just be done away with completely because in my experience, it's only helpful from a long range. If someone's standing next to you, they're not at all hard to see. At all.)

On the other hand, being able to alter the Camouflage Suit's pattern so that it can be used in different environments is, at best, iffy but by default it should be assumed to be acceptable due to the description of what and how both the Camouflage Suit and the color/pattern-shifting technology is described. The bonus is still coming from the Camouflage Suit. You're simply using the technology to alter the environment to which it is compatible, which is completely in line with its described capabilities.

[3278]

House rules are fine. But that's exactly what it is; a house rule.

That's what each side always thinks of the other. That's the whole point of the conversation, is to figure out, or come to an agreement on, which position is the rules-as-written and which the house rule. Saying, "Your position is a house rule" begs the question, and is also kind of dickish. [And, of course, unutterably pointless, as I mentioned before: it doesn't matter what rule is written in the book, only what rule will best work at the table. But that's a conversation I don't think we're going to have.]

[Ol' Scratch]

That's what each side always thinks of the other. That's the whole point of the conversation, is to figure out, or come to an agreement on, which position is the rules-as-written and which the house rule. Saying, "Your position is a house rule" begs the question, and is also kind of dickish.

Considering that it's written plainly in black-and-white, and the only counterargument is "I don't like it, so I'm changing it something else" or "I'm making up a price of 1,000 nuyen" makes it -- by definition -- a house rule. Call me dickish all you like, it's not going to change that fact.

Believe it or not, it's possible to be wrong about something.

[And, of course, unutterably pointless, as I mentioned before: it doesn't matter what rule is written in the book, only what rule will best work at the table. But that's a conversation I don't think we're going to have.]

That's been discussed, too. And, again, it's an argument about Camouflage Suits and why that's the only way to get those benefits. That's what's broken and needs to be addressed. Why can't just buy another set of clothing with a camouflage pattern already printed on it? No shifting needed. It's camouflaged, too. Why doesn't it get the bonus?

Or are we not even allowed to have ordinary, low-tech clothing with complex patterns and colors on it, too?

[3278]

Considering that it's written plainly in black-and-white...

Yep. So's the thing they're saying. The rules are broken. Get over it. And I'm not just talking to you: you just happened to be the last person to have posted. Personally, I think you're absolutely correct in your interpretation, I just don't think it matters.

Believe it or not, it's possible to be wrong about something.

Oh, I believe it. I don't have any experience with it personally, mind you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And, again, it's an argument about Camouflage Suits and why that's the only way to get those benefits. That's what's broken and needs to be addressed.

Exactly right. The rule that's there is stupid and contradictory, so write a new rule. Never mind what the old one was: just put that away. What's the new one?

It seems to me like there should be four classes of clothing:

1 Dumb clothing, not camouflaged
2 Dumb clothing, camouflaged
3 Ruthenium-woven clothing, which can change colors and patterns
4 Advanced ruthenium clothing, for that [completely, stupidly, shockingly impossible] stealth effect

Are there any types I'm missing?

Obviously 1 would come in multiple styles and colors: it's regular clothing, by our standards. And obviously 2 would have multiple sub-types [jungle, arctic, baroque], and could be assumed to be day/night reversible unless otherwise specified. A brief discussion would be warranted with 3, explaining some various means of control [wireless, datajack, skinlink, buttons], and what kind of resolution you could expect. And 4 requires all sorts of explanations.

Mechanically, you need a bonus for blending in [available for 1, 2, 3 and 4], with variables for efficacy. You need a penalty for not blending in [available for 1 and 2; not 3 or 4, unless it's broken or something], with variables for stand-out-ish-ness.

What else?