Camouflage suits offer a bonus to infiltration & other stealth like stuff in the appropriate areas, if the camo matches the environment. Chameleon suits have the Ruthenium coating with allows them to blend with everything.

So why bother getting camo suits when chameleon is so much better & goes with everything? Does the chameleon suit have any drawbacks? Since it's a tech based item, seems like it would show up on heat sensors or other sensors that pick up energy, as the suit must use power to operate it's light-bending capabilities, while camo doesn't.

However, if it's only heat, adding Thermal Dampening would fix that no worries. Any thoughts or ideas, or is camo outdated & useless if you can grab chameleon.

Don't camo suits also have better armor?

Only by 2 points. So far, camo is cheaper (by a lot) that chameleon, & offers 2 points better protection. It also doesn't need a license to get as it's not restricted. However, you can wear chameleon everywhere, & get a -4 perception bonus as opposed to the -2 you get from camo (if it's in the right setting, a +2 penalty if it's not).

Yes, chameleon is better...

Better armor, much less expensive, much lower availability(and not restricted at all).

While it's true that chameleon suits are generally better for stealth, most paramilitary groups(corp security, mercs, ect), would rather save the money and get the better armored one instead. For runners it's useful if you need to do a border crossing and can't afford to take restricted gear, it'll be to get through most checkpoints, and even available on the other side on the open market.

As pointed out elsewhere, Ruthenium Polymer coating trumps them both.




-k

The idea is to get a full-body suit armor (which the camouflage armor is one) and apply Ruthenium to it. TA DA! Now you have a piece of armor with the same penalty to Perception with better armor.

Remember: Chameleon suits change pattern to match their surroundings, camo suits have a set pattern and the -2 only applies where the pattern is relevant; Elsewhere it is +2 bonus to perception.

I'm glad someone already pointed out the obvious: things have different Avail, price, etc. It's like asking, 'why buy a Ford when there's Ferrari right there?'

One other neat thing you can do with Camo armor plays off this:

"Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter
the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display messages and images
from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more
commlinks."
- SR4, 20th anniv, pg326, Clothing and Armor

My GM lets me download a reasonable number of "skins" on to my link, and load them into my camo armor as needed. It's nowhere as fast or as complete as Ruthenium, of course, but if I need to go from woodland camo pattern #4 to urban camo pattern #12, I can do so in a reasonable amount of time.

End result, if you have some prep time, and a few sec to change the skin when you change environment, you always get the -2.

… That doesn't sound like Camo Suit at all. It seems to be talking about 'clothing', not 'armor', and doesn't say anything about peforming any camo effect (nor mitigating the camo-mismatch penalty, let alone getting the -2 bonus). It sounds like cheating; if it were possible *and* inherent, why would the camo suit rules even exist?

And yet, you can use the Ruthenium Coating to do just what is being discussed. It is MORE EXPENSIVE. so it is not really all that big of a concern.
This is not uncommon in game, from what I understand.

No one said you couldn't, TJ. He said you could do it *without Ruthenium*, for free, by default. Pay attention.

The chameleon suit is a tech based item, so it might be sensitive to EMP attacks.

Essentially the only thing vulnerable to EMP is Signal.

My point was that it is not Cheating, as you stated...
It did not seem like that was what he was saying, either, since he was apparently quoting the use of Ruthenium Polymers (Rather than the Chameleon Suit).

And my point is that it *is* cheating to claim the powers of Ruthenium… without actually buying and using Ruthenium. He was specifically quoting a *non-use* of Ruthenium, if you'd check the book reference.

Got it. Did not look at the book. Let me do that...
After having read it. I see the passage as a description (read: Fluff) of Basic and Advanced Ruthenium Systems. Which you would have to buy, Just like the implanted comlink (from the fluff description in the passage) in the shirt, etc. Fluff does not a rule make, after all.

Basic Ruthenium does everything the passage says it does.
Advanced Ruthenium is more along the lines of the Chameleon Suit.

*shrug*

Have to agree with you on the 'Cheating' if he is not actually purchasing the basic ruthenium capabilities.

Yes. The dangers of finagling powers out of fluff, especially for anti-logical munchkin reasons.

Ruthenium aside, while camo maybe cheaper, it's for a particular environment. So, to cover all the possible environments a runner can goto, chameleon is cheaper as it has the ability to go anywhere.

As for ruthenium, it seems that is the goto for covering all your gear so you can be "stealthy".

But you could take the Camouflage, put Ruthenium Coating on it (without getting all the expensive sensor upgrades for full Chameleon Suit) for far cheaper than the Chameleon Suit, and still get the +2 Camouflage in any environment (whether moving or not). It just takes a little programming/download time to get the appropriate "Camoflauge Pattern" for the environment and apply it to the Camouflage suit.

Easy Peasy.

This is the train of logic I presented to my GM:

Based on my above quote, and the fact that there is no listed charge for clothing that can change color or pattern, I deduce that it is so cheap and easy in 2070 that most clothes will have that feature.

Based on the armor descriptions (that same page), all the armor in the base book, except for the full body armor, is made from flexible ballistic materials. Some might add hard ballistic plates for extra protection. In either case, they would require some kind of fabric garment to hold the armor panels together and make them look remotely normal.

So far, we have two key facts: Fabric that can change its appearance is cheap in the 2070s, and most armor would have a fabric outer layer.

Now for the speculation: A camo suit is just an armored garment that has a specific set of colors and patterns on it. Does it make sense that a military-grade combat uniform would lack a feature that your Trog-o-palooza '71 souvenir t-shirt has?

To answer some of your concerns, no this isn't ruthenium for free. This is starting the day with one camo pattern, and later taking a few turns with my commlink to find a more appropriate camo pattern and then waiting a turn or so for the new settings to load and the pigments to change. It still gets the same -2 die pool mod, and if my environment changes, until I take the time to change patterns, I would take the +2 die pool penalty.

It is an important distinction that the camo suit has a static pattern, while the Chameleon suit has a dynamic pattern. The camo suit just takes a representative set of colors and shapes that blend into an environment, a chameleon suit copies that exact locale. Even down to the NERPS ad on the wall behind you.

Lastly, guys, I hope the posts just didn't come out the way you intended, but don't accuse me of cheating in a matter that didn't happen at your table.. I cleared this idea with the final arbiter of crunch and fluff at my table, my GM, so it is right, at my table. You can say that it wouldn't be allowed at your table, but that it all.

It's not 'full ruthenium', but it's definitely doing something that the rules do not say the camo suit can do. It's also doing something that the rules strongly imply the camo suit cannot do. It is *also* inventing new rules to account for this ('waiting a turn or so', etc.).

I wasn't talking about whether it made sense in the game world, but whether it made sense in the game rules: it doesn't. You're talking about house rules, that alter the game balance, for free. And while every table is free to change *any* rule, that doesn't change the base, common rules. Sorry if your feelings were hurt, but you're certainly cheating per the actual base rules, under my definition.

Yeah, I'm done here, you two have fun.

Except that Yerameyahu is right Ed_209a. What you are using for "rules" is only fluff. Do you allow any clothing to just have a Comlink in it by default too? By your definition of the quote you made, this should be the case. Basic Ruthenium is what you are describing (and what iis in the quote you used.) It requires a cost, which is in the book. Clothing does not come with it by default.

Just Saying...

It's all perfectly logical and appropriate to the rules. Shadowrun has long been plagued by lazy design teams who just cut and paste, talk past each other, and otherwise communicate like shit when "writing" (translation: "cutting and pasting") many of the rules. Camouflage is one such rule where it would have been nice if they had actually read what they already wrote regarding a basic function of most clothing in the game.

And no, just as that rule describes, it isn't the more advanced Ruthenium Polymers that make Chameleon Suits possible. But it does specifically allow you to change the colors and complex images and patterns on your clothing, just not at the lightning fast speed that Ruthenium Polymers allows. It even says that clearly, in black and white, right after describing the colorshifting possibilities available to all clothing and armor. This function is completely free and a default trait of all clothing and armor in the game, unless the rules (or personal preference) directly states otherwise.

Additionally, no, that same paragraph does not say that all clothing and armor comes with commlinks. It says that you can weave a commlink or other gadget into it, and that they then effectively become powered by the clothing itself (which is a default benefit of Sixth World outfits).

The fault isn't even with the Camouflage Suit. It doesn't say this isn't possible at all, only that you can reverse it for day/night patterns, and that as long as you're wearing it for the environment it's (currently) patterned for, you get the listed benefits. Nowhere does it say that it's limited to a single day/night pattern.

Again, Ol' Scratch, what you are referring to is FLUFF, that exactly mimics the Crunch of BASIC Ruthenium.

Fluff or not is up to his GM.
I would give it a boni -1 and it takes 10min to change only if he invests some rp effort.

also there is a lot of use for cheap camo with better protection. cause your pretty nice and pricey Ruthsuit will get bulletholes, slashes etc and soon youll have to replace it.
(sorry no repairing ruth. )
also there always the lowpower grp in which you maybe know what ruth. is but never have the money for it.

Flying heads are head shots both ways

Stahlgewitter, only if you've added some kind of 'gear damage' rule to the basic rules.

While that fluff block does indeed imply that all clothing (and therefore probably armor) gets those basic 'smart' functions… it doesn't give any mechanical effect. So you can change color all you want (without, again, any rules for speed), but you can't gain any benefit from it. Yes, this is a case of bad rule-writing. No, it doesn't mean you should assume the Camo Suit actually gives -2 everywhere (unless you deliberately choose a bad pattern).

You could write a house rule to *fix* this problem, but you can't assume it doesn't exist.

Wrong as usual. The advanced Ruthenium Polymers you're blathering on about provide double the benefit of what a camouflage pattern does. It also provides virtual invisibility, instantly adapting to any environment its taken into, which camouflage does not.

Whether it's an early attempt ruthenium polymers (ie, "basic ruthenium") or some other method (the rules never state what it is, only that it exists), people can change any outfit they like into any basic or complex pattern, scheme, or color they like. It's just not adaptive like Ruthenium Polymers are. And it is a general rule for clothing in the Sixth World, no matter how much you want to claim otherwise.

You're simply wrong. It's not a matter of opinion. It's in black and white, and completely free of cost. Just like weaving a commlink into your clothing is free if you really want to. But you still have to buy the commlink in that case; it's only the weaving of it that's free of charge.

The only argument is whether or not other outfits can gain the mechanical benefit of Camouflage Suits, since the benefits are listed with the suit and not a clothing modification. But there is nothing wrong with using the color/pattern shifting abilities of a Camouflage Suit to change which environment its suited for, no matter how many weak and embarrassingly wrong arguments you try to offer up.

A GM can, of course, say "no." Just like anything else in the game.

The fluff doesn't apply any one thing consistently really. It has gawd awful paper flats in there too, and good old fashioned rags for the wretched poor. There's no way those either of them can turn into a Burberry tartan pattern, or a designer logo.

Hell, I'd bet certain ranges and shades of colours were trademarked. That's exactly the kind of insanity I'd expect to have to deal with sooner or later. Corp colours. Like gang colours, scaled up to a home-taping is killing music! sized level of insanity. Breaking into an ultra high security facility, risking life and limb, to switch an ink cartridge that is going to be used to print this Tuesday's new fashion line, so that Horizon can no longer claim in front of the corporate court to consistently use Pearlescent Blue #9654 in their logo's shading, since, clearly the first batch included Pearlescent Blue #9564 - which has been used exclusively by EVO in their medical range for STI self test products.

As ever, the GM is the final authority. Attitude even began with making a point of showing the differences between how trids depict how Shadowrunners (stereotypically) dress versus the reality, if my memory serves correctly.

I'm not criting his idea or his GMs approach, but for a juryrigged a solution to camoflaging like that sounds more than a little opportunistic without the risk of it failing catastrophically. If infiltration is meant to be an exciting part of a run then why should even an off the rack sweatshirt and a little search and coding be enough to hide from security guards.

I'd be happier if the possiblity of a critical glitch rolled on a large-ish dice pool could in the appearance of a high contrast bullseye on the shirt, right in front of a no-longer-bored troll security guard, complete with a hardened shotgun in one hand and a twee motivational kitten gift mug of "Go get 'em champ!" in the other.

Sorry, I should have said 'any clothing can get' instead of 'all clothing gets'. I agree, and that's the nature of fluff.

It is not really wort arguing with you Doc... So, have a great evening...

What about: That's a clothing/armour mod that sounds like it does just the thing you're trying to do.

The Fashion spell is of course an easy way to go if you have a spellcaster on the team.

Yes, but that's specifically to modify transparent material, which is something the standard option for clothing doesn't allow (only colors and patterns). It's also specifically Ruthenium Polymers, not the more generic color-shifting materials used in other outfits.

Those are some pretty fine hairs.

I thought the part I quoted said it was "to change the opaque parts".

Anyway, if all/any/standard clothing could already "alter the color or display complex images and patterns" without ruthenium then would there be any purpose Second Line charging 1000Y for this feature as an optional extra? I'd say anything able to "display complex images and patterns" could "display signs and slogans" and more.

That they charge extra for it suggests to me it does something more than normal clothing/armour does, not just that it does the same thing in a needlessly complex and expensive way.

See the very first paragraph in my very first post in this thread. The real answer is there.

If there is an error, it's with the Second Skin (I did misread opaque as transparent in my previous reply; sorry about that). The correct assumption that accounts for everything, however, is that Second Skin is one of the outfits that doesn't have this option available by default, and you have to pay the extra 1,000 nuyen to gain it. That doesn't mean the base rule -- the one quoted several times -- doesn't apply to everything else. Additionally, this rule is specifically calling a need for Ruthenium Polymers; apparently the outfit is too fragile to handle the 'heartier' options in standard clothing, most of which gets away with much cheaper alternatives ass quoted: "Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns."

The base rule (all clothing comes with this feature) trumps any specific rules. Second Skin is a specific rule. The color/patternshifting property of most clothes in the Sixth World is the base rule even if the designers incompetently forget about it time and time again. This is hardly the only place it happens.

House rule it to your heart's content. That doesn't change what's written in black and white on page 326 of SR4A.

But hey, if we're going to just randomly ignore any rule we want simply because it's listed in the "fluff" introduction for a category of equipment, then I guess you're free to use Edge with skillsofts without any special hardware (SR4A p. 330 notes that you don't, but it's just "fluff," neh?). Also, your cool sunglasses and contact lenses with all those fancy mods aren't wireless, since that's just part of the "fluff" description on page 332. Guess you're going to have to pay extra to get that functionality (even if it's not listed anywhere). Ditto for cyberware (p. 338).

Hooray for ignoring anything we want and calling it the rules as written!

Sometime I really wonder, why you need to make everything blink in Shadowrun.
If you want it make one jacket which does it and make it clear what it does and what not.

Keep the complexity low, and you will end up with rules without too much holes in them...

If the complexity WERE low, then there would not be any holes, because the detail could be filled in at a whim.

However, what we're having is a complex system FULL of holes, because the writers, or rather those who commisioned them, were too lazy or too stingy to actually produce a finished product.

Hooray for twisting the logic to suit whichever side you've chosen? Again, the fluff-as-written might imply that clothing has this 'smart' function, but it *doesn't* give any mechanical effect at all. It certainly doesn't imply that Camo Suit can retain the -2 bonus by using it, and the fact that the Camo Suit has a penalty condition strongly implies that you can't trivially, quickly change it. It's all just implication, but that's the less stupid and ridiculous option.

If there were a mechanical option for this electronically patterned clothing then it wouldn't be a problem: clearly a pattern is just a pattern and not giving a mechanical benefit for an appropriate camo pattern is just willfully being a dick. However, I can't find any "lesser ruthenium" in the books. Maybe my rules-fu just sucks, though.

And thats the reason you always have to read the rules like: It is only allowed, what is stated in the crunch.
If you don`t you end up with such silly discussion...


No, actually you can be the lazyiest *** ** * ***** and still get a system without loop holes. It is more about: I want that cool thing and this cool thing and oh this is shiny..

Brainpiercing: Perhaps, but two bad rules don't make a right. We have a couple choices, as I see the situation:

1) all clothing and armor gets -2, because if Camo can do it, everything can;
2) add a 'smart clothing' mod (I keep calling it that because of Eclipse Phase, sorry), which you could get for your Camo Suit or anything else.
(The 'smart' mod can be called ruthenium or not; some people are of the opinion that the difference between 'ruthenium' and 'chameleon' is the camera/sensor/computer package, so that's simple enough.)

Anything wrong with these, as opposed to just giving only Camo Suit a special power it doesn't otherwise seem to have?

Has any one given any thought to the possibility that although clothing in 2072 has "Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns." that maybe these only make up part of the clothing like labels and patches and not the whole outfit? The rules don't say either way so there is no real way to know for sure.

… Nope. But that's a possible subset, sure. Anything is possible, under vague fluff.

And yet, You excel at this... As you have been doing this entire thread.
Yes, Clothing CAN do what you are describing, but ONLY IF you add the requisite technology. It does not come for free.

Yes. It. Does.

Just like your glasses and monocles come with wireless technology for free. It's a basic, fundamental aspect of the technology. Just like the color/pattern-shifting technology used in clothing and armor. They're described exactly the same way, in exactly the same areas of the rules. YOU'RE the one deciding to randomly ignore one over the other.

There is no listed cost for it for a reason.

Except the Camo Suit indicates that it can't do that, or it'd have no reason to mention the penalty and *not* mention the trivial way to avoid it. There would also be some rule that all clothing can have -2 camo bonus, and there'd be a rule for how fast the change happens (including 'instantly').