Rules question regarding vision enhancements for Smartgun systems Options

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

Should a Smartgun system be able to leverage the vision enhancements of other systems in a character's PAN (ie:goggle/glasses/contacts/monocles/cybereyes/etc.) or do they require separate dedicated camera upgrades? Should vision enhancements in an imaging scope (with or without an Imagelink) be able to be used by a weapon's Smartgun system?

By my reading, I haven't been able to find any definitive official guideline laid out for this in any of the 4E books I've got, so I guess I'm really just asking for opinions/examples of how this question is handled by GMs out there in DumpShock land.

[Yerameyahu]

For simplicity, I feel like people usually just allow everything to work together.

If you wanted to be strict, this *might* not be right; it depends on the level of technological wizardry you think 2070 has. To me, the alternative to 'everything stacks' is quickly unusable, and possibly illogical. :/

On the one hand, you can say that the smartlink is merely adding the calculated reticule to the character's 'collection' of AR information. It's not 'using' anything else. All those AR feeds all just stack up in their brain… so it doesn't matter where the sensors actually are. This is also the same as a character with natural thermo (etc.) being able to use it with a smartgun. Everything just works.

On the other hand, you *could* say that the smartgun can't do its job when limited by the hardware: if you're targeting in pitch dark and your smartgun camera is not upgraded, then the smartgun bonus could be gone… but again, all it does is tell you exactly where your bullet trajectory is, based on where you're pointing the gun. Hmm.

[Glyph]

I would say that the enhancements on a smartgun camera itself are only relevant in two conditions. One, if you put an enhancement on the smartgun camera that you don't already have from another vision source. Or two, if you are doing something using only the smartgun camera - such as shooting around a corner. Otherwise, I would say that everything works together.

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

On the one hand, you can say that the smartlink is merely adding the calculated reticule to the character's 'collection' of AR information. It's not 'using' anything else. All those AR feeds all just stack up in their brain… so it doesn't matter where the sensors actually are. This is also the same as a character with natural thermo (etc.) being able to use it with a smartgun. Everything just works.

This is kind of my PoV on the subject. There seems to be a big focus in 4E on the integrated PAN with all of your devices (and other's subscribed devices potentially) talking to each other all of the time unless restricted actively by the user. It seems like the standard architecture for software and hardware should be engineered to leverage this pervasive interconnectivity.

On the other hand, you *could* say that the smartgun can't do its job when limited by the hardware: if you're targeting in pitch dark and your smartgun camera is not upgraded, then the smartgun bonus could be gone…

That's the angle one of my GMs seems to be taking (ie: My contacts/glasses/cybereyes have low-light enhancement but my smart gun camera doesn't. I can see a target w/ my eyes in dim light but my smartgun can't get a lock because its dedicated camera doesn't have the low-light enhancement). It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me unless the PAN is being jammed (assuming you're not using a hard or skinlink) or has been hacked into preventing communication between nodes or we assume that smartlinks use the "each device is an island" paradigm which seems to be on the way out even in RL 2012.

I would say that the enhancements on a smartgun camera itself are only relevant in two conditions. One, if you put an enhancement on the smartgun camera that you don't already have from another vision source. Or two, if you are doing something using only the smartgun camera - such as shooting around a corner. Otherwise, I would say that everything works together.

Both of these limitations make complete sense to me. I can also see where leveraging innate/magical vision enhancements would get kind of tricky as well. Seems like it might introduce a good bit of latency having to route through a simsense module/simrig to get the sensory data out of the character's brain before it could get back out onto the PAN.

Thanks for your input.

[Yerameyahu]

I can see a target w/ my eyes in dim light but my smartgun can't get a lock because its dedicated camera doesn't have the low-light enhancement).

Yeah. The thing is, and this is just IIRC, the smartgun isn't 'getting a lock' at all. It's just tell you where you're pointing it. It *might* be that it simply can't know where it's pointed if it can't see at least the background, though. :/ You'd think it'd have accelerometers.

Hm. Don't forget that latency isn't really a thing in 2070. Simsense and all is hella fast—it has to be. It's your gun arm and trigger finger that's slow.

[SpellBinder]

Should a Smartgun system be able to leverage the vision enhancements of other systems in a character's PAN (ie:goggle/glasses/contacts/monocles/cybereyes/etc.) or do they require separate dedicated camera upgrades? Should vision enhancements in an imaging scope (with or without an Imagelink) be able to be used by a weapon's Smartgun system?

By my reading, I haven't been able to find any definitive official guideline laid out for this in any of the 4E books I've got, so I guess I'm really just asking for opinions/examples of how this question is handled by GMs out there in DumpShock land.

You should check Arsenal, page 150, Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only).

[kzt]

In SR3 a smartgun system tracked your body, so it knew where you aimed the gun relative to your body and could produce an aimpoint based on that. A guncam was an extra cost option for weapons. Somewhere in a SR3 book there was a discussion of modular smartlinks and what cyberware equaled what to make a smartlink work.

Sr4 removed the need for the embedded tracking system and appears to just use the gun camera.

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

You should check Arsenal, page 150, Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only).

I've read it, it just doesn't seem to really come down one way or another on the question for me:

Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only): This modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems (pp.323–324, SR4). It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system.

The vision enhancements and smartgun system entries in SR4A seem similarly non-explicit on the subject to me.

[SpellBinder]

You asked about smartguns needed their own dedicated camera upgrades. That weapon mod is the upgrade for a smartgun camera. If you're going to take a peek through the camera of a smartgun (like a targeted shot around a corner without exposing the rest of your body) you're going to take all vision penalties for unaided vision with that camera.

Otherwise, as I understand it, for just targeting in your regular field of vision you get a marker or whatever in the smartlink and go with whatever vision enhancements you have naturally, installed, or are wearing. The basic system does come with a laser rangefinder so you're always gonna know how many meters away the first object you're going to hit is.

[Speed Wraith]

Since this came up for my game, I may as well post here (as well as on our shared doc asking the question (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

For simplicity's sake, yes, they integrate just fine for my game. YMMV at other tables, obviously.

My opinion on the smartgun camera upgrades are simply that it is just another way to avoid having your eyeballs scooped out while still getting nifty vision enhancements.

[Udoshi]

You should check Arsenal, page 150, Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only).

Actually, camera upgrades fall under Anniversary Edition Conversion Shitheap.

here's why:

Formerly, cameras were unrated. Check your Arsenal master table of sensors - it still lists them as a flat price.
Cameras weren't capped in the amount of vision enhancements they could have. You pay the money, it goes in.

External smartlink accessories can take vision enhancements per the normal rules (4a 322, the small camera can be equipped with vision enhancements).
Internal Smartgun Mods(arsenal) work exactly like external smartlinks(ars 153: this is the internal version of the smartgun system, page #. ) (that is literally all it says)

And where it goes wrong:
In Anniversary, cameras were GIVEN ratings(1-6) and a limit on the amount of accessories they could have (rating). Ultrasound sensors were further nerfed in an undocumented change from PDF 4A to Hardcopy 4A by making them it count as two accessories.
Smartlinks were never updated with a camera rating, leaving the exact amount of free vision enhancements they can have entirely up in the air

Fortunately, there's an easy fix. The first is to assume that its camera is rating 3, same as its Device Rating.
The second is to just shell out the cash for a Camera 6 and replace the default camera, then use the usual rules from there.


When you think about it, the camera upgrade mod is literally useless. It wasn't necessary when the rules for it were penned(4th+arsenal), and even past that in Anniversary Edition you only need it if you run out of room with the camera accessory slots.


Anyway, I tend to put Vision Magnification(because every decent gun needs a scope) and Flare Compensation(it never stops working when the ambient lighting conditions are against you) on my smartlinks

[SpellBinder]

It would be so nice to see an Arsenal reprint that catches up with the rest.

Along those lines I'm more likely gonna assume the Smartgun camera is rating 1 (cheaper product means greater profit margin), with an allowed upgrade based on the price difference. In my games, though, it's never come up.

[Falconer]

As opposed to Udoshi's blatant cheating and questionable assertions.

The smartguns require gun mods to increase their things. Furthermore, the rules state you can't combine a scope and a smartgun so his image mag seems highly suspect (otherwise I'd think an external scope/smartgun would be a no brainer).


Smartguns and guncams fall under the weapons rules in arsenal. Nowhere in SR4a does it state otherwise. You can't just add tons of vision mods to them without paying the modification cost. It's highly integrated peripheral device. Not part of a drone sensor package, or some other easily accessable and upgradable part.

[Udoshi]

As opposed to Udoshi's blatant cheating and questionable assertions.

Hey, stop calling names unless you can back it up.
I know you don't like me, but seriously, back it off because you come into every thread in which i have a postt and call me a cheater.
Tone the harassment down, please.

External smartguns quite clearly say they can take vision mods on its built in camera.
and internal smartguns say they work exactly like external smartlinks.


They work like this no matter which edition you're playing. The only difference is how MANY vision mods you can have built in.

[Falconer]

Because most of the time I only deign to post when I see someone asserting things the rules don't say. Or making dubious claims. In this case, Arsenal expands the ruleset and is not rendered dead letter by SR4a. I don't have any issues with you, only with bad rules assertions.


Using the basic rules in SR4a allows this because it has no modification rules whatsoever only the accessories, but if using arsenal with firearms modification rules this does not supercede those expanded rules.


The modification requlrement simply reflects that it takes up valuable space in the gun to put in a more capable camera and requires a weapon's modification. The bit about smartguns on p153 arsenal actually directly references SR4a, but did not remove the 'camera upgrade' modification on page 150.

[Udoshi]

By the same token, arsenal doesn't render 4th OR 4A dead letter either. Actually, the arsenal section for smartguns points you back to to the core book

in fact, arsenal explicitly states that Accessories still exist, and acknowledges that Mods and Accessories are different systems that work alongside each other -
The only restriction is that you can't have the same item as both as mod and an accessory on the same gun.


Camera upgrade isn't a requirement, just an option.

[Falconer]

Internal smartlink is no longer an accessory. It explicitly states that. It changes SR4a with the advanced rules. In SR4a an internal smartlink is an accessory option. With arsenal and modification rules it becomes a modification. Further modifying the internal smartlink with vision upgrades requires camera upgrades modifications.

The rules say they're available, not that they won't cost more. Or that advanced rules won't modify those costs.

And like I pointed out the rules reference SR4a directly by page, not SR4. So you can't claim that SR4a is somehow special compared to SR4 here.

[Udoshi]

Internal smartlink is no longer an accessory. It explicitly states that. It changes SR4a with the advanced rules. In SR4a an internal smartlink is an accessory option. With arsenal and modification rules it becomes a modification. Further modifying the internal smartlink with vision upgrades requires camera upgrades modifications.

That's flat out wrong, and you know it. Arsenal specifically tells you that Internal smartlinks work exactly like External smartlinks.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
If external ones can take camera upgrades, internal ones can too. Period. If they work the same they work the same.
Which book it tells you to look in is irrelevant, because its the exact same thing copy-pasted between 4th and 4A.

Modifications aren't mandatory, they are options. Camera Upgrade is just another example of catalyst writers not knowing their shit. It would not be the first time. Here, you pointed it out yourself:

The bit about smartguns on p153 arsenal actually directly references SR4a, but did not remove the 'camera upgrade' modification on page 150.

Your same state applies to your own arguement. Arsenal doesn't remove the rule rules from the core book either.

Your problem is that you don't actually READ the information presented to you. You call people out on as being wrong when you're not actually on the same page as everyone else.

And like I pointed out the rules reference SR4a directly by page, not SR4. So you can't claim that SR4a is somehow special compared to SR4 here.

Go read this. No, seriously, go read it until you comprehend it: the rules for how many vision enhancements a camera can have changed between editions. Its incredibly relevant to the discussion and understanding why the system is fucked up.

[Falconer]

No I did read that, it's the reason I chose to post.

Just because the internal smartgun can take vision upgrades, DOES NOT mean that there aren't additional costs involved.

Arsenal adds an additional cost for internal smartguns. Your argument entirely rests on outright ignoring clearly printed rules. I and others disagree. Hence why I say you're making things up and ignoring the rulebook.

My reading is consistent with ALL the published rules and renders nothing dead letter. Yours requires ignoring a printed rule BECAUSE YOU DON"T LIKE IT. My reading... can it take the upgrade? yes as per SR4a... .how much does it cost... 1 mod slot + the normal enhancement costs. (FYI: the rules also say smartguns are DR3... so it's most likely a rating 3 camera system if not stated otherwise).

[ZeroPoint]

Internal smartlink is no longer an accessory. It explicitly states that. It changes SR4a with the advanced rules. In SR4a an internal smartlink is an accessory option. With arsenal and modification rules it becomes a modification. Further modifying the internal smartlink with vision upgrades requires camera upgrades modifications.

The rules say they're available, not that they won't cost more. Or that advanced rules won't modify those costs.

And like I pointed out the rules reference SR4a directly by page, not SR4. So you can't claim that SR4a is somehow special compared to SR4 here.

If your going to complain about someone spreading missinformation you shouldn't do so yourself...I'm looking at the book right now it it sais SR4.....there is no "a" at the end. Not to mention that SR4a wasn't released for another 2 years after Arsenal...

And if you want to disclaim someone, you don't just say "this guys assertions are dubious at best", you have to provide some quotes or references to back up your bullshit. If you don't then any of your arguments are "dubious at best".

[ZeroPoint]

And one more thing. You always spout off that Arsenal makes internal smartlink into modifications...but I don't see that anywhere. If you want to back up your argument, again please provide a quote.

But don't worry, i have one for you to help you out.

Arsenal Pg 148

Smart or Not?
A standard weapon is considered a “dumb” device with no Device rating and no wireless connection,
so it cannot interact with the Matrix nor can it be manipulated through it. This is the case for
most melee and thrown weapons. Many 2070-era firearms, however, are equipped with a smartgun
system, either off-the-rack, as an internal or external firearm accessory, or as a weapon
modification. These weapons are considered smart weapons with a Device rating of 3 and a wireless
connection, as well as the basic equipment that comes with a smart system (laser range finder,
small camera, sensors to keep track of heat buildup and ammunition, an automatic gun mode switch,
and clip ejection). Some of the weapon modifications listed below
require a weapon to be a smart weapon.

Italicized for emphasis

So lets examine this.

The first italicized section references smartgun systems as internal, external, or modification all in the same sentence...in arsenal...and says they all have [set of properties] no matter which is installed. So obviously they are the same, and if you can have any of the three then arsenal obviously isn't telling us that internal accessories are actually mods. And we know they aren't listing all three in the event that you decide not to use mods because the last sentences says the following mods require the above.

The second portion I italicized is important because it references that the smartgun system is a rating 3 device that ALSO contains a camera. It does not list what the rating of that camera is. So you can extrapolate that it perhaps should be 3 or even 1... BUT only if you are using SR4A because when this was published, it was referencing SR4 (not SR4a...) Cameras did not have ratingsin SR4!

[Udoshi]

Zeropoint I love you. Platonically.

[Falconer]

Zeropoint. look at the 2nd printing of Arsenal.

Look at the entry for Smartlink under modifications, p153 2nd printing...
"Smartgun System: This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system (p. 322, SR4A)".

That makes it pretty damn clear it replaces the internal accessory originally printed in the book. Or are you going to get into a treatise on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

And coming back full circle... some of the modifications below require it to be a smart weapon... like say Camera Upgrade.

Game Set Match. So I am NOT spreading misinformation. I'm simply citing the most recent printing which incorporates SR4a.

[Udoshi]

Dude, if its the internal version of the accessory, then it works exactly like the accessory. That is what we've been trying to hammer through your thick skull this entire time. If its the same, then it by nature has the same Capacity for Vision Enhancements as the regular smartlink.
Arsenal explicitly says this and you're ignoring it

Also! Your arguement falls apart in two ways: The first is the Mod smartlink doesn't actually tell you what it does. It literally has no game stats!

The second is zeropoint's quote proves that Modlinks are not the only option.

This is also what I have been saying: Accessories and Mods are seperate co-existing systems. One doesn't overwrite the other, they both exist simultaneously. The only specific prohibition is you can't have the same item in both mod and accessory form at the same time on the same gun; its either or.

And coming back full circle... some of the modifications below require it to be a smart weapon... like say Camera Upgrade.

Logical fallacy. Just because a (mod) requires another (mod) doesn't make mods mandatory. It's like an upgrade tree. If you want an Improved Rangefinder, you have to use a modlink. If you just want a cheap smartlink, you can still slap a 400Y external link on your Top mount.

[Falconer]

So using your broken logic then.

There's no reason to ever spend a modification slot to install an internal smartlink because you can just do it as an accessory?

Nothing which gets superceded in an rules expansion book matters because advanced rules (for say modifications) can't supercede basic simplified rules in the main book. Even when they say they take the place of them. Which is what I meant what the meaning of 'is' is. It says it *IS* the internal smartlink accessory and references the rules by page. So it very well DOES have published stats, it takes the place of the internal accessory since the internal accessory becomes a modification.

Otherwise it's completely pointless to ever do it as a modification because all it does is waste space. Making that and other entries dead letter... which clearly is NOT the intent.