Should a Smartgun system be able to leverage the vision enhancements of other systems in a character's PAN (ie:goggle/glasses/contacts/monocles/cybereyes/etc.) or do they require separate dedicated camera upgrades? Should vision enhancements in an imaging scope (with or without an Imagelink) be able to be used by a weapon's Smartgun system?

By my reading, I haven't been able to find any definitive official guideline laid out for this in any of the 4E books I've got, so I guess I'm really just asking for opinions/examples of how this question is handled by GMs out there in DumpShock land.

For simplicity, I feel like people usually just allow everything to work together.

If you wanted to be strict, this *might* not be right; it depends on the level of technological wizardry you think 2070 has. To me, the alternative to 'everything stacks' is quickly unusable, and possibly illogical. :/

On the one hand, you can say that the smartlink is merely adding the calculated reticule to the character's 'collection' of AR information. It's not 'using' anything else. All those AR feeds all just stack up in their brain… so it doesn't matter where the sensors actually are. This is also the same as a character with natural thermo (etc.) being able to use it with a smartgun. Everything just works.

On the other hand, you *could* say that the smartgun can't do its job when limited by the hardware: if you're targeting in pitch dark and your smartgun camera is not upgraded, then the smartgun bonus could be gone… but again, all it does is tell you exactly where your bullet trajectory is, based on where you're pointing the gun. Hmm.

I would say that the enhancements on a smartgun camera itself are only relevant in two conditions. One, if you put an enhancement on the smartgun camera that you don't already have from another vision source. Or two, if you are doing something using only the smartgun camera - such as shooting around a corner. Otherwise, I would say that everything works together.

This is kind of my PoV on the subject. There seems to be a big focus in 4E on the integrated PAN with all of your devices (and other's subscribed devices potentially) talking to each other all of the time unless restricted actively by the user. It seems like the standard architecture for software and hardware should be engineered to leverage this pervasive interconnectivity.


That's the angle one of my GMs seems to be taking (ie: My contacts/glasses/cybereyes have low-light enhancement but my smart gun camera doesn't. I can see a target w/ my eyes in dim light but my smartgun can't get a lock because its dedicated camera doesn't have the low-light enhancement). It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me unless the PAN is being jammed (assuming you're not using a hard or skinlink) or has been hacked into preventing communication between nodes or we assume that smartlinks use the "each device is an island" paradigm which seems to be on the way out even in RL 2012.


Both of these limitations make complete sense to me. I can also see where leveraging innate/magical vision enhancements would get kind of tricky as well. Seems like it might introduce a good bit of latency having to route through a simsense module/simrig to get the sensory data out of the character's brain before it could get back out onto the PAN.

Thanks for your input.

Yeah. The thing is, and this is just IIRC, the smartgun isn't 'getting a lock' at all. It's just tell you where you're pointing it. It *might* be that it simply can't know where it's pointed if it can't see at least the background, though. :/ You'd think it'd have accelerometers.

Hm. Don't forget that latency isn't really a thing in 2070. Simsense and all is hella fast—it has to be. It's your gun arm and trigger finger that's slow.

You should check Arsenal, page 150, Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only).

In SR3 a smartgun system tracked your body, so it knew where you aimed the gun relative to your body and could produce an aimpoint based on that. A guncam was an extra cost option for weapons. Somewhere in a SR3 book there was a discussion of modular smartlinks and what cyberware equaled what to make a smartlink work.

Sr4 removed the need for the embedded tracking system and appears to just use the gun camera.

I've read it, it just doesn't seem to really come down one way or another on the question for me:

Camera Upgrade (Smartguns Only): This modification upgrades the guncam with vision enhancement systems (pp.323–324, SR4). It can be taken more than once, each time adding a new vision enhancement system.

The vision enhancements and smartgun system entries in SR4A seem similarly non-explicit on the subject to me.

You asked about smartguns needed their own dedicated camera upgrades. That weapon mod is the upgrade for a smartgun camera. If you're going to take a peek through the camera of a smartgun (like a targeted shot around a corner without exposing the rest of your body) you're going to take all vision penalties for unaided vision with that camera.

Otherwise, as I understand it, for just targeting in your regular field of vision you get a marker or whatever in the smartlink and go with whatever vision enhancements you have naturally, installed, or are wearing. The basic system does come with a laser rangefinder so you're always gonna know how many meters away the first object you're going to hit is.

Since this came up for my game, I may as well post here (as well as on our shared doc asking the question )

For simplicity's sake, yes, they integrate just fine for my game. YMMV at other tables, obviously.

My opinion on the smartgun camera upgrades are simply that it is just another way to avoid having your eyeballs scooped out while still getting nifty vision enhancements.

Actually, camera upgrades fall under Anniversary Edition Conversion Shitheap.

here's why:

Formerly, cameras were unrated. Check your Arsenal master table of sensors - it still lists them as a flat price.
Cameras weren't capped in the amount of vision enhancements they could have. You pay the money, it goes in.

External smartlink accessories can take vision enhancements per the normal rules (4a 322, the small camera can be equipped with vision enhancements).
Internal Smartgun Mods(arsenal) work exactly like external smartlinks(ars 153: this is the internal version of the smartgun system, page #. ) (that is literally all it says)

And where it goes wrong:
In Anniversary, cameras were GIVEN ratings(1-6) and a limit on the amount of accessories they could have (rating). Ultrasound sensors were further nerfed in an undocumented change from PDF 4A to Hardcopy 4A by making them it count as two accessories.
Smartlinks were never updated with a camera rating, leaving the exact amount of free vision enhancements they can have entirely up in the air

Fortunately, there's an easy fix. The first is to assume that its camera is rating 3, same as its Device Rating.
The second is to just shell out the cash for a Camera 6 and replace the default camera, then use the usual rules from there.


When you think about it, the camera upgrade mod is literally useless. It wasn't necessary when the rules for it were penned(4th+arsenal), and even past that in Anniversary Edition you only need it if you run out of room with the camera accessory slots.


Anyway, I tend to put Vision Magnification(because every decent gun needs a scope) and Flare Compensation(it never stops working when the ambient lighting conditions are against you) on my smartlinks

It would be so nice to see an Arsenal reprint that catches up with the rest.

Along those lines I'm more likely gonna assume the Smartgun camera is rating 1 (cheaper product means greater profit margin), with an allowed upgrade based on the price difference. In my games, though, it's never come up.

As opposed to Udoshi's blatant cheating and questionable assertions.

The smartguns require gun mods to increase their things. Furthermore, the rules state you can't combine a scope and a smartgun so his image mag seems highly suspect (otherwise I'd think an external scope/smartgun would be a no brainer).


Smartguns and guncams fall under the weapons rules in arsenal. Nowhere in SR4a does it state otherwise. You can't just add tons of vision mods to them without paying the modification cost. It's highly integrated peripheral device. Not part of a drone sensor package, or some other easily accessable and upgradable part.

Hey, stop calling names unless you can back it up.
I know you don't like me, but seriously, back it off because you come into every thread in which i have a postt and call me a cheater.
Tone the harassment down, please.

External smartguns quite clearly say they can take vision mods on its built in camera.
and internal smartguns say they work exactly like external smartlinks.


They work like this no matter which edition you're playing. The only difference is how MANY vision mods you can have built in.

Because most of the time I only deign to post when I see someone asserting things the rules don't say. Or making dubious claims. In this case, Arsenal expands the ruleset and is not rendered dead letter by SR4a. I don't have any issues with you, only with bad rules assertions.


Using the basic rules in SR4a allows this because it has no modification rules whatsoever only the accessories, but if using arsenal with firearms modification rules this does not supercede those expanded rules.


The modification requlrement simply reflects that it takes up valuable space in the gun to put in a more capable camera and requires a weapon's modification. The bit about smartguns on p153 arsenal actually directly references SR4a, but did not remove the 'camera upgrade' modification on page 150.

By the same token, arsenal doesn't render 4th OR 4A dead letter either. Actually, the arsenal section for smartguns points you back to to the core book

in fact, arsenal explicitly states that Accessories still exist, and acknowledges that Mods and Accessories are different systems that work alongside each other -
The only restriction is that you can't have the same item as both as mod and an accessory on the same gun.


Camera upgrade isn't a requirement, just an option.

Internal smartlink is no longer an accessory. It explicitly states that. It changes SR4a with the advanced rules. In SR4a an internal smartlink is an accessory option. With arsenal and modification rules it becomes a modification. Further modifying the internal smartlink with vision upgrades requires camera upgrades modifications.

The rules say they're available, not that they won't cost more. Or that advanced rules won't modify those costs.

And like I pointed out the rules reference SR4a directly by page, not SR4. So you can't claim that SR4a is somehow special compared to SR4 here.

That's flat out wrong, and you know it. Arsenal specifically tells you that Internal smartlinks work exactly like External smartlinks.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Exactly.
If external ones can take camera upgrades, internal ones can too. Period. If they work the same they work the same.
Which book it tells you to look in is irrelevant, because its the exact same thing copy-pasted between 4th and 4A.

Modifications aren't mandatory, they are options. Camera Upgrade is just another example of catalyst writers not knowing their shit. It would not be the first time. Here, you pointed it out yourself:

Your same state applies to your own arguement. Arsenal doesn't remove the rule rules from the core book either.

Your problem is that you don't actually READ the information presented to you. You call people out on as being wrong when you're not actually on the same page as everyone else.

Go read this. No, seriously, go read it until you comprehend it: the rules for how many vision enhancements a camera can have changed between editions. Its incredibly relevant to the discussion and understanding why the system is fucked up.

No I did read that, it's the reason I chose to post.

Just because the internal smartgun can take vision upgrades, DOES NOT mean that there aren't additional costs involved.

Arsenal adds an additional cost for internal smartguns. Your argument entirely rests on outright ignoring clearly printed rules. I and others disagree. Hence why I say you're making things up and ignoring the rulebook.

My reading is consistent with ALL the published rules and renders nothing dead letter. Yours requires ignoring a printed rule BECAUSE YOU DON"T LIKE IT. My reading... can it take the upgrade? yes as per SR4a... .how much does it cost... 1 mod slot + the normal enhancement costs. (FYI: the rules also say smartguns are DR3... so it's most likely a rating 3 camera system if not stated otherwise).

If your going to complain about someone spreading missinformation you shouldn't do so yourself...I'm looking at the book right now it it sais SR4.....there is no "a" at the end. Not to mention that SR4a wasn't released for another 2 years after Arsenal...

And if you want to disclaim someone, you don't just say "this guys assertions are dubious at best", you have to provide some quotes or references to back up your bullshit. If you don't then any of your arguments are "dubious at best".

And one more thing. You always spout off that Arsenal makes internal smartlink into modifications...but I don't see that anywhere. If you want to back up your argument, again please provide a quote.

But don't worry, i have one for you to help you out.

Arsenal Pg 148

Italicized for emphasis

So lets examine this.

The first italicized section references smartgun systems as internal, external, or modification all in the same sentence...in arsenal...and says they all have [set of properties] no matter which is installed. So obviously they are the same, and if you can have any of the three then arsenal obviously isn't telling us that internal accessories are actually mods. And we know they aren't listing all three in the event that you decide not to use mods because the last sentences says the following mods require the above.

The second portion I italicized is important because it references that the smartgun system is a rating 3 device that ALSO contains a camera. It does not list what the rating of that camera is. So you can extrapolate that it perhaps should be 3 or even 1... BUT only if you are using SR4A because when this was published, it was referencing SR4 (not SR4a...) Cameras did not have ratingsin SR4!

Zeropoint I love you. Platonically.

Zeropoint. look at the 2nd printing of Arsenal.

Look at the entry for Smartlink under modifications, p153 2nd printing...
"Smartgun System: This modification is the internal version of the smartgun system (p. 322, SR4A)".

That makes it pretty damn clear it replaces the internal accessory originally printed in the book. Or are you going to get into a treatise on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

And coming back full circle... some of the modifications below require it to be a smart weapon... like say Camera Upgrade.

Game Set Match. So I am NOT spreading misinformation. I'm simply citing the most recent printing which incorporates SR4a.

Dude, if its the internal version of the accessory, then it works exactly like the accessory. That is what we've been trying to hammer through your thick skull this entire time. If its the same, then it by nature has the same Capacity for Vision Enhancements as the regular smartlink.
Arsenal explicitly says this and you're ignoring it

Also! Your arguement falls apart in two ways: The first is the Mod smartlink doesn't actually tell you what it does. It literally has no game stats!

The second is zeropoint's quote proves that Modlinks are not the only option.

This is also what I have been saying: Accessories and Mods are seperate co-existing systems. One doesn't overwrite the other, they both exist simultaneously. The only specific prohibition is you can't have the same item in both mod and accessory form at the same time on the same gun; its either or.




Logical fallacy. Just because a (mod) requires another (mod) doesn't make mods mandatory. It's like an upgrade tree. If you want an Improved Rangefinder, you have to use a modlink. If you just want a cheap smartlink, you can still slap a 400Y external link on your Top mount.

So using your broken logic then.

There's no reason to ever spend a modification slot to install an internal smartlink because you can just do it as an accessory?

Nothing which gets superceded in an rules expansion book matters because advanced rules (for say modifications) can't supercede basic simplified rules in the main book. Even when they say they take the place of them. Which is what I meant what the meaning of 'is' is. It says it *IS* the internal smartlink accessory and references the rules by page. So it very well DOES have published stats, it takes the place of the internal accessory since the internal accessory becomes a modification.

Otherwise it's completely pointless to ever do it as a modification because all it does is waste space. Making that and other entries dead letter... which clearly is NOT the intent.

Gathering up all of the valid points and bits from everyone's arguments, here's about where LOGIC puts us:

1. Catalyst STILL isn't paying attention of how illogical and poorly defined a lot of their rules are
2. A Smartgun system can either be added externally (while still magically being able to control the inside of your gun) as an accessory, or internally as a modification. Period.
3. A Smartgun system is a ballistic co-processor, a wireless antenna, and a sensor package with a rating of 3, giving it capacity 3
4. This capacity is taken up by a camera [1], a laser-range finder [1], and specialized ammo, heat, etc sensors [1]
5. a sensor package with a capacity of 3 is the same as in a minidrone (both by the rules and it's logical size), and is therefore large enough to hold a camera of any rating for capacity [1]
6. sensors that are a part of a package that is typically given a device rating are assumed to be of the same rating as the device, therefore a standard smart camera is rating 3.
7. a rating 3 camera has 3 capacity to add vision modifications as normal
8. the camera's rating can be upgraded just like it could in any other sensor package.

Conclusion: the "Vision Enhancement" weapon modification is redundant, idiotic, contradicts the rest of the rules regarding sensors, and should throw into the same blackhole as emotipets, SnS ammo (for anything other than shotguns), and the availability rating for High Powered Ammo.

An now, super-trippy question time: can you add the smart-link vision enhancement to your smartgun's camera? :o

Yo dawg..

Sorry, I'll get my coat.

nooooooooo, again, you're MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY.

I pay a slot, install an internal modlink, and install a Vision Magnification into its built in camera.
Then I put a Pilot Upgrade on it, which I can only do if there's an internal modlink.
Then I install my gun into a tripod or a gunport on a vehicle or something and enjoy having an autoturret.


It doesn't waste space; it lets you take advantage of mods which require internal smartlinks.

the 'i'll just use an external smartlink for 400 nuyen instead of double my weapons base price, fuck paying double HMG price' exploit existed before arsenal came along. it just maintained its status quo.

The thing you're finally starting to get is that there is no superceding involved. Arsenal pretty much shoves into your face the fact(zeropoint's quote) that accessories exist and that guns still come with them, even when mods are an available system to use. Mods are not a system that forces you to use it, and I don't know where the fuck you got that idea from. Arsenal doesn't make you use mods! Hell, it includes a shitton of extra accessories! It even has guns which, *GASP*, have accessories and not mods.

Case in point: the FN Mag-5(page 29) is a medium machinegun that "comes equipped with a top-mounted laser sight, a barrel-mounted gas-vent 2 system, and a folding tripod as an underbarrel accessory" Holy shit its not a mod! I can't believe it! A laser sight specifically on a top mount?

Its like the writers of the book wanted Mods and Accessories to BOTH BE USED HOLY SHIT THE WORLD IS ENDING

/sarcasm

Actually accessories exist. Everything built into the gun from the factory is considered a modification.


My issue is that according to you, there is no reason ever to spend a slot on the camera upgrade. I disagree. I believe the camera can be upgraded, but doing so means you need to use up very limited space in the gun to do so. Hence why it costs you on top of the normal price, the small price of an extra modification slot for the 'camera upgrade'.


You're saying I don't like this, so I'm going to completely ignore it. Which is fine, but don't tell me that's following the rules when you're intentionally ignoring them because you don't like them.


Valv: Completely missing the jist of the thread... the issue isn't that the smartgun has a camera... its' that wepaons have different modification rules for things built into them. Those are codified in Arsenal. The basic rules are written to be used without arsenal, arsenal as a rules expansion overrides some aspects of that (such as changing the internal smartlink from an accessory to a modification).

I didn't get a chance to say it with the other arguement going on, but basically that "Vision Enhancement" weapon modification, while dumb and idiotic, was introduced before cameras had a rating. Likely one of the devs put it in as a solution to 'how much shit can a smartgun camera hold anyway' Not-problem..... and it was never changed when they introduced Actual Camera Ratings. Because catalyst never fixes anything. Ever.

THAT BEING SAID, despite all the knocks and confusion its caused, the Guncam Upgrade actually does have a use. There are currently 9 camera slots worth of vision enhancements. A camera 6 can only fit 6 in it. If you ever really, really, really need all the toys crammed into your gun.

While I respect your logic in coming to that conclusion, I don't like the implication that a smartlink counts as a sensor package. That implies you can change its sensor configuration, which is something its never even hinted at being able to do.
Sadly, it's just a device that has two built-in sensors, it isn't actually a drone or a seperate sensor package that you buy.

My logic is a bit simpler than yours but ends up at the same conclusion.

• oh shit, i want a smartgun with zoom, but catalyst fucked up again and has terrible rules they haven't fixed.
• What's the issue? The smartgun has a camera but the rating isn't given?
• Whats its Device rating? 3? Okay! Fuck catalyst! We're going with that! OR, I'll just pay for an actually rated one and dodge the issue entirely because i gave it a rating!
• Hey GM, I found a rules snag. Here's the problem AND the solution? Does this work for you?

1: False! Arsenal actually gives guns that have accessories slapped on top, AS I POINTED OUT ALREADY, because they're specifically labeled as accessories.
2: WRONG AGAIN.

3: I'm actually backing up how it works with rules. I'm not ignoring anything.
You're substituting your opinion on how stuff works and how it should be balanced with actual facts and rules. You couldn't give a relevant page quote to save your life.
In short, stop trolling.

p148.
"If an off-the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc. it is assumed that those upgrades are MODIFICATIONS instead of accessories. however, those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the weapon themselves still counta s unmodified."

So while there may be a few here and there which have not available as modification accessories here and there.

That makes it fairly clear if there's ever any doubt anything built into the gun is a modification.

Are y'all even arguing the same point?

One is saying the smart link costs mod space, the other is arguing the function of different versions of said mod/accessory.

Or am I one Irish Car Bomb beyond basic reading comprehension?

Smart link has camera. Camera accepts mod. Camera slot gets filled as it reaches capacity. Its like adding an under barrel mount to an under barrel mounted weapon. The accessory has been accesorized. Smart link can be modded. Gun can be modded.

Falconer: you can have a scope and smart link. rules just state you only benefit from largest bonus. Semantics, I know.

Reading the posts again, it does look like y'all're arguing two different points.

Tech_Rat, I think you are mostly right. I think the argument is slightly askew. If I have read and understood the argument, Udoshi is saying that he wants to add vision mods to the (unrated) camera that comes for free with a smartgun package. Falconer is saying that a smartgun package doesn't come with a free camera. If you want to have a smartgun system in your weapon first you have to add a camera modification to the weapon, then you can add the smartgun system. The camera can then be modified with vision enhancements as required using the camera capacity based on the camera installed.

I’m sure that if I have misinterpreted what these two kind and very generous people have said they will correct me in the most polite and considerate way possible.

-D

You, good sir, are mostly correct - if slightly backwards. You don't need to put a camera in first to get a smartgun - because the smartgun itself includes a camera and some other things with the whole package. The item description says it comes with a camera which can take vision accessories. Tech_rat's summary, here, is entirely accurate:





Falconer is kind of all over the place with his interpretation of rules and he thinks they aren't balanced, but basically it started because he thinks that the Gun Modification that adds MORE vision accessories is useless(it mostly is), and that means the whole system is broken and unbalanced and cheating to use - instead of what's actually going in: Catalyst Game Labs making "Yet Another Rules Blunder", compounded by "Changing The Rules For Cameras Between Editions And Not Updating Their Old Material Accordingly".

Good job, falconer. You've confused the new guy into thinking that you have to put a Camera Upgrade into a gun before a smartlink.

Udoshi,

I wasn't saying that the smartgun mod didn't come with a camera. That was my interpretation of what Falconer was saying. I agree that the smartgun system has a camera that indeed can be upgraded.

The camera mod listed in Arsenal is there so you can add a camera to a gun to record a muzle-eye view of your kills and such, it is seperate from the camera in the smartgun system.

However I could be wrong on my interpretation of Falconer's statements.

-D

*edit* Oh and though I have only a few posts, I wouldn't consider myself "new". I've been playing since first edition, I still have my 1st edition hard-backs (though the covers are about falling off of it).

This is a rule intended to patch core book weapons into compatability with arsenal mod rules.
If something says it comes with an accessory, it still an accessory.



Enjoy your contradiction.

Dmiller: Mah bad, i meant new to the conversation

Exactly the rule is intended to modify the base weapons and the newly created ones into arsenals ADVANCED weapons modification rules. As of second printing it was updated to also incorporate SR4a into it.


In the example only the tripod is an accessory (note the singular). It's the exception which proves the rule.

Also I'll point out tripods aren't available as modifications. Bipods are but not tripods. Lets face it a gun with a never removable tripod would suck! (you ever tried to lug one of those things around! They're heavy and get in the way).

Stick it on a rotodrone and, as I think someone else already mentioned, now you have a mobile sentry gun. But that's the only time I could imagine having a permatripod without the user being military.

Sir, you owe me a fresh cup of coffee. I actually did a spit-take.