Edge and Glitches Options

[StealthSigma]

"...add a number of extra dice ... to the dice pool." SR4a p.74
To me that says the dice pool gets bigger, or it would/should say "are rolled in addition to the dice pool".

"Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate more than one hit." SR4a p.62
This implies that the Rule of Six does not increase the dice pool size.

So I'd say 15.

Since a die can generate more than one hit it stands to reason that all values rolled are valid and there is no text I can find that discounts this. Therefore I would call that eight 1s.

In which case you glitched because of your expenditure of edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How does that make sense?

[FriendoftheDork]

Except....in the case of my example. 3 would result in that scenario, which has no solution. Therefore 3 is not a viable option.



Touche. That's what I get for being AFB.

How is 3 not a viable option? Glitch persist, which means you cannot add dice or reroll failures. It's probably the easiest fix.

FTFY

TY was tired when I wrote that. Specifically, it's 1's >= (dicepool/2 (round up) in quasi code.

[Thanee]

How is 3 not a viable option? Glitch persist, which means you cannot add dice or reroll failures. It's probably the easiest fix.

Well, that is 1). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Aerospider]

In which case you glitched because of your expenditure of edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How does that make sense?

Maybe it doesn't, if the ethos of Edge expenditure is that it must yield a non-negative return. I don't think it necessary but it is valid.

But then, the odds of those four bonus rolls producing a result that poor or worse is only 5%. Plus there are the bonus successes achieved on the four original Edge dice which both increase the margin of success and reduce the severity of the glitch. The risk is as good as negligible.

For the record, it doesn't work to analyse the effects of spending Edge before the roll after the roll - you were more likely to glitch without the Edge and once added all the dice are equivalent to one another anyway so the glitch cannot be sensically attributed to Edge. The question of post-roll Edge creating a glitch is more meaningful.

[Garvel]

Option 1

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

Option 2

You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch.

No sentence excludes glitches from simply being re-rolled.

The first option is clearly the stronger one, since it is very unlikely that you score a glitch again if you re-role.

But that one option is much stronger than the other, is pretty usual in SR4, so it doesn't prove anything.

Just look for example at the options for called shots (page 161 SR4A): "Target a vital area in order to increase damage" is way better than "Target an area not protected by armor". But still there remain some very rare situations where "Target a vital area in order to increase damage" is actually the better option.
It is similar with this rule. There are some situatios where it is better than re-roling, since it guarantees to remove your glitch. If someone attacks you with 3 hits and you defend with 3 hits and a glitch, and you don't want the glitch, this is the better option.

Another example that I witnessed myself was when I asked my players for an infiltration check. They had set up a diversionary maneuver, so I ruled that only a critical glitch would mess this up. The check was mostly thought to create some tension, because the situation was pretty letal if they would be seen. One unlucky character with the suiting name "Lucky" and a dicepool of 8 rolled a critical glitch. He didn't use the negate glitch option and re-rolled the whole test.
And rolled.......... a critical glitch.
I was pretty baffled.

[pbangarth]

By the way, you are not negating the glitch or critical glitch, you are negating the effects of said glitch/crit glitch. So the glitch would still happen, you just do not suffer the effects.

Good old contradictions again: p. 62: "Characters may spend Edge to negate a glitch (p. 74)." p. 74: "You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch."

The description of glitches on p. 62 seems pretty clear that glitches happen independently of number of hits. As soon as the dice pool is rolled with the necessary number of 1s, a glitch happens. Anything you do after that to affect the number of hits is exclusive of that already-occurred event.

We all agree that only one use of Edge can apply to any test. p. 74: "If you spent a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge to that test."

The Rule of Six section at the bottom of p. 62 explicitly states that one die can produce multiple hits. Rerolling does not make more dice, it only makes (potentially) more hits.

So I think that if you are going to use Edge on a dice roll, you can either use it to try to make more hits, or you can use it to negate (the effects of) a glitch. If you spent Edge at the start to get extra dice and rerolls for all misses, then you are SOL if a glitch happens.

[Garvel]

Anything you do after that to affect the number of hits is exclusive of that already-occurred event.

But it isn't mentioned that the re-rolling option affects the number of hits at all.

You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

Either you say that your re-rolled result replaces the old result of the test, or you have to say that the re-rolled dice don't effect the result of the test at all. (But the latter doesn't make sense.)
It is not like the other options, where it says:

roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add their hits to the test’s total

It doesn't only add more hits. It replaces the result of the dice.

The therm "re-roll" is used a few times in the book, but its nowhere exactly defined what it means, so the developers must have thought that it would be obvious, and simple enough that it doesn't need explanation.

"Replace the old result with the re-rolled result." seems simple and obvious to me.

"Replace the old result with the re-rolled result, but when the old result was a glitch, you have to keep the glitch, but add some hits, and when the old result was a critical glitch, you have to keep the critical glitch, but may have some hits together with a critical glitch now, what is actually not supposed to happen and not covered by the rules, and when the old result was a critical success, your new result may be zero hits, but still count as a critical success for some reason." doesnt seem so simple and obvious to me.

[Garvel]

p. 62 contains:

Characters may spend Edge to negate a glitch (p. 74).

but also:

Note that characters may spend Edge to downgrade a critical
glitch to a regular non-catastrophic glitch (p. 74; note that the char-acter still fails).

So the line on p. 72

You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch.

It isn't really a contradiction, but summary of the two options on page 62.
And it's a very bad summary, since you have to misinterpret it, when you read only it, and not both quotes from page 62.
And it doesn't even refer to page 62 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[pbangarth]

But it isn't mentioned that the re-rolling option affects the number of hits at all.

• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.

The Rule of Six only applies to tests made with Edge dice (p. 74).
When Edge is spent on a test, any dice that roll sixes are counted as hits
and then re-rolled. Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate
more than 1 hit (since you keep re-rolling sixes).

[Garvel]

yes, in difference to the rule of the six or the roll-edge-dice-after-the-test option, the re-roll option ("You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.") doesn't say anything about adding hits to the tests total.

[Draco18s]

yes, in difference to the rule of the six or the roll-edge-dice-after-the-test option, the re-roll option ("You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.") doesn't say anything about adding hits to the tests total.

Alert! Excessive Rules Lawyering Detected!

You know that you're on shaky ground there.

[Halinn]

That's on the same level as D&D not actually having rules for what being dead means.

[Garvel]

Keeping the glitch from the old result, athough the dice were re-rolled is bad rule-lawyering to me.

If dice are re-rolled then you have a new result and can forget the old one. That is not rule-lawyering but a straight forwward intuitive interpretation of the rule.

[Udoshi]

"Replace the old result with the re-rolled result, but when the old result was a glitch, you have to keep the glitch, but add some hits, and when the old result was a critical glitch, you have to keep the critical glitch, but may have some hits together with a critical glitch now, what is actually not supposed to happen and not covered by the rules, and when the old result was a critical success, your new result may be zero hits, but still count as a critical success for some reason." doesnt seem so simple and obvious to me.

Also, keeping the glitch from before the reroll opens the doors to having double-glitched tests, or tests that both critically succeed and critically glitch, or other manner of controversial and opposing combinations that don't make sense.

fuck yeah! i critglitched, so i get a point of edge back, and then spend it immediately to reroll! Now I the critglitch doesn't go away, but I have a critical SUCCESS! OMG GM what happens?"

[Draco18s]

fuck yeah! i critglitched, so i get a point of edge back, and then spend it immediately to reroll! Now I the critglitch doesn't go away, but I have a critical SUCCESS! OMG GM what happens?"

Eh?

[Udoshi]

page 74. Its one of the ways you can get edge back.

[Sengir]

fuck yeah! i critglitched, so i get a point of edge back, and then spend it immediately to reroll! Now I the critglitch doesn't go away, but I have a critical SUCCESS! OMG GM what happens?"

Spontaneous combustion, obviously.

[Draco18s]

page 74. Its one of the ways you can get edge back.

I keep forgetting that critglitches do that.

[pbangarth]

Well, actually this is just a possibility for the GM to apply.

[Udoshi]

Very true! Even if you take taking out that 'possibilty' of out of the doubleglitch/criticalglitchsuceed equation, its still really dumb. At that point you get into core mechanics abuse that the game didn't envision, and its better to just occhams razor the original problem.

[Thanee]

It all really boils down to just one truly viable option:

Rolling a glitch (or critical glitch) means you cannot spend Edge in any way other than negating that glitch (or changing a critical glitch into a glitch).

Anything else is either adding some weirdness or is way too easy.

Bye
Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It all really boils down to just one truly viable option:

Rolling a glitch (or critical glitch) means you cannot spend Edge in any way other than negating that glitch (or changing a critical glitch into a glitch).

Anything else is either adding some weirdness or is way too easy.

Bye
Thanee

Indeed... I can live with that.

[Garvel]

It all really boils down to just one truly viable option:

Rolling a glitch (or critical glitch) means you cannot spend Edge in any way other than negating that glitch (or changing a critical glitch into a glitch).

Anything else is either adding some weirdness or is way too easy.

Bye
Thanee

That doesn't solve the problem since your edge isn't the only way that dice can be re-rolled.

If you roll a critical succes and someone uses the twist fate power (SR4A p. 304) on you, you can still end up with a critical glitch afterwards.
And then you still have a critical succes and a critical glitch at once.
Or you might have a critical succes that doesn't show enough hits to be a critical succes.

IMHO the only way that prevents weirdness is to say: when a die is re-rolled, forget what it showed before. The only result that counts is the new result.

[Draco18s]

IMHO the only way that prevents weirdness is to say: when a die is re-rolled, forget what it showed before. The only result that counts is the new result except when explicitly stated otherwise by the rules, e.g. Rule of 6.

FTFY (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Aerospider]

Also, keeping the glitch from before the reroll opens the doors to having double-glitched tests, or tests that both critically succeed and critically glitch, or other manner of controversial and opposing combinations that don't make sense.

fuck yeah! i critglitched, so i get a point of edge back, and then spend it immediately to reroll! Now I the critglitch doesn't go away, but I have a critical SUCCESS! OMG GM what happens?"

The easy answer is to not allow the expenditure of a point of Edge on the same roll from which you got it. Doing so would be a bit time-travelly.

If one were to maintain that the glitch persists following a re-roll or extra dice then it's easy - extra hits both increase the success and lessen the glitch. For a critical glitch I think the text on p.62 implies otherwise - when using Edge to downgrade to a normal glitch* the character still fails the test. To my mind then any extra hits gained from post-roll Edge should be worthless if the critical glitch is still in effect.

* I have only now noticed that the critical glitch section and the Edge section are at odds, one saying you can downgrade to a regular glitch and the other saying you can negate it. Don't know which I prefer yet.