I'm always wondering how this is supposed to work.

You can use Edge to negate a Glitch.

But can you also use Edge to gain extra hits, despite having rolled a Glitch (without negating it, of course)?

i.e. you roll 10 dice, 2 hits and a Glitch. Can you use Edge to re-roll 8 dice, in order to increase the number of hits you get (but still suffer the Glitch)?

Or does a Glitch automatically negate all other Edge-options (apart from negating the Glitch, that is)?

Bye
Thanee

If you re-rolled, instead of negating the glitch, then yes, you still have a Glitch (regardless of whether you earned more successes on the re-roll). At least that is how I would rule it. It would make no sense otherwise.

You either -
Negate the Glitch
or
Re-Roll the failed dice (and still have a Glitch)

Interesting. I always thought that you can negate a glitch by re-rolling dice without hits. Now I know better. I wonder if I'll keep that houserule.

That's how I've always done it too. Never even occured to do it another way

I'll need to check my pre-SR4a book later, if it was different back then

There's not enough evidence to prove one way or another.

This. At my table, if you pick up failed dice and reroll them, they're no longer 1s. Glitches aren't determined until after the dice stop rolling.
So at our table you can "negate" a glitch by rerolling the dice.

Maybe it doesn't make sense "any other way" if the rule exists...unless it doesn't make any sense for the rule to exist.

It's like an if(false) { } statement in programming. It'll never execute, but it'll compile anyway!
(Most compilers will throw a warning that it won't ever execute, but there are valid reasons to do it).

(Similarly there's if(a != a) { }--read "if a value does not equal itself," which appears at first glance to always evaluate to false, but there is one case where it will evaluate to true: NaN.* All comparisons for equality to NaN return false. I.e. NaN == NaN will return false, so the inverse will return true).

*Special value, "Not A Number." Happens when you attempt to divide by 0 or similar.

I'm going to throw a wrench at it.

Adding edge to the test should also permit a glitch to be removed by virtue of raising the number of dice rolled. This is a bit weaker since I'm not certain that edge dice are considered part of the dice pool.

Yeah, I consider that a given.

Otherwise, re-rolling non-hits would be plain superior.


But that is not really the question.

The question is... can you actually do that?

Can you - if the initial roll is a Glitch (or Critical Glitch) - only use Edge to negate that (or lessen it), or can you also use the other options (but in that case keep the Glitch result)?

What do you guys think?

Bye
Thanee

Not if the original roll was a pass with glitch, and that's all you needed. Re-rolling non-hits would risk another glitch (a small risk, but avoidable)


I also allow edge used to roll more dice negate glitches if the glitch isn't there at the end of the roll. They can also cause glitches...

Here's the thing. If you can "use other options" in the case of a critical glitch, which would reduce it to a regular glitch due to the fact that you likely rolled one hit on the reroll (that is, if rerolling and getting a single hit makes it not-a-critical glitch), then the same would need to be true for regular glitches: the possibility of being eliminated through the alterations of the number of 1s rolled.

So either:

1) Negating a glitch is the only option
2) Rerolling dice also negates glitches

Any middle-state produces weirdness ("So I opt to reroll my failed dice and keep my critical glitch. I rolled three successes. What happens?")

They way I see it it's more like IF (1s >= hits) Glitch = TRUE
Else (may reroll failures).

It doesen't mate sense to allow rerolling failures when glitching, especially considering negating glitch is an edge option. There should also be more advantage to rolling Edge beforehand (less chance of glitch).

Negating a glitch isn't useless in the face of rerolls and more dice, it has its use. It is niche, but the option is there for those that want it. Just because sub-optimal options exist doesn't make them redundant (see: most of chargen).

Afterall, if I need two hits, and I have two-hits-and-a-glitch, I don't need to roll more dice (for the same cost, I'll toss out the glitch!).

See, at my table, once the dice leave your hand they are rolled and the result is as it is. You can then re-roll the failed dice trying to get more hits, but if you had a glitch on the initial roll you still have one on the re-roll. The only way to get rid of it is to use the edge to negate the glitch. To us, re-rolls do not negate what you have done previously (they don't make it like that never happened). Just our way of looking at it.

By the way, you are not negating the glitch or critical glitch, you are negating the effects of said glitch/crit glitch. So the glitch would still happen, you just do not suffer the effects.

When ever don't you want more hits than two? Besides you can turn a critical glitch to a normal glitch, why would you ever want to do that if you can reroll all dice? Even if you only have a single die (in which case rolling the Edge dice seperately also negates it and gives exploding sixes), it is pretty clear you are intended to use Edge to negate glitch and not just roll more dice.


At least thats what I think and all the GMs I've played under.

Success tests with a threshold of 2 where net hits are extraneous and provide no tangible benefit.
The final extended test where you only need 2 more hits to complete the task.

...And various other things. Say, a test against 2 damage. Or a dodge test where the other guy flubbed and got 1 hit. Or...
(Admittedly those are both success tests with a threshold of 2, effectively, but it does come up)



Critical glitch on 1 die:

Options:
1) reroll the one die, with a 1 in 6 chance of doing nothing (worst option).
2) downgrade to a regular glitch (effectively adds an automatic hit)
3) roll edge dice which do not get exploding sixes, due to being after the fact, which at low edge values doesn't look so pretty

Why would those be the only options?

1) Negating a glitch is the only option
2) Rerolling dice also negates glitches
3) You check for glitches after the initial roll and they persist
3a) You check again for glitches after using Edge in whatever way
3b) You do not check again for glitches after using Edge in whatever way

All of these seem viable in some way or another.



Yeah, that would certainly be a little weird.

Overall, I am in favor of option 1), I think.

It is interesting to read other people's opinion, though. Apparantly, opinions differ a bit here.

Bye
Thanee

The only time you're ever guaranteed a benefit to hits above what was needs is in attack tests. All other tests are GM fiat on what additional benefit you gain though it is recommended you get something.



#3 is incorrect. Rolling edge after the test does explode but only for the edge dice. If you add edge prior to the test then all dice explode.

Except....in the case of my example. 3 would result in that scenario, which has no solution. Therefore 3 is not a viable option.



Touche. That's what I get for being AFB.

How about this weirdness from using edge to gain edge dice and explode all dice.

Since a glitch is determined as half the dice pool rolled, what is your dice pool in the below scenario?

You start with 11 dice.
Your edge of 4 is added bringing you up to 15 dice.

You roll.

6 hits (4 6s and 2 5s) and roll 6 1s.

You roll the 4 sixes (bringing you up to 19 dice rolled).

You roll no hits and 2 1s.

So what was your total 1s and your final pool?

Was it 6 or 8 1s and was it a dice pool of 11, 15, or 19?

FTFY

1s: 6
Pool: 15

Pool is easier, because rerolled dice don't count double for "how big is half." Likewise, the rerolled dice can't be counted as 1s on their second roll, otherwise they'd have been counted twice (once as a hit, once as a 1).

Extra successes from exploding 6s are a unique feature and are explicitly noted.

Well, it could be. A critical glitch would just mean, that re-rolling dice would be pointless, since it would still be a catastrophic failure afterwards.

Bye
Thanee

"...add a number of extra dice ... to the dice pool." SR4a p.74
To me that says the dice pool gets bigger, or it would/should say "are rolled in addition to the dice pool".

"Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate more than one hit." SR4a p.62
This implies that the Rule of Six does not increase the dice pool size.

So I'd say 15.

Since a die can generate more than one hit it stands to reason that all values rolled are valid and there is no text I can find that discounts this. Therefore I would call that eight 1s.

In which case you glitched because of your expenditure of edge.

How does that make sense?

How is 3 not a viable option? Glitch persist, which means you cannot add dice or reroll failures. It's probably the easiest fix.






TY was tired when I wrote that. Specifically, it's 1's >= (dicepool/2 (round up) in quasi code.

Well, that is 1).

Bye
Thanee

Maybe it doesn't, if the ethos of Edge expenditure is that it must yield a non-negative return. I don't think it necessary but it is valid.

But then, the odds of those four bonus rolls producing a result that poor or worse is only 5%. Plus there are the bonus successes achieved on the four original Edge dice which both increase the margin of success and reduce the severity of the glitch. The risk is as good as negligible.

For the record, it doesn't work to analyse the effects of spending Edge before the roll after the roll - you were more likely to glitch without the Edge and once added all the dice are equivalent to one another anyway so the glitch cannot be sensically attributed to Edge. The question of post-roll Edge creating a glitch is more meaningful.

Option 1
Option 2

No sentence excludes glitches from simply being re-rolled.

The first option is clearly the stronger one, since it is very unlikely that you score a glitch again if you re-role.

But that one option is much stronger than the other, is pretty usual in SR4, so it doesn't prove anything.

Just look for example at the options for called shots (page 161 SR4A): "Target a vital area in order to increase damage" is way better than "Target an area not protected by armor". But still there remain some very rare situations where "Target a vital area in order to increase damage" is actually the better option.
It is similar with this rule. There are some situatios where it is better than re-roling, since it guarantees to remove your glitch. If someone attacks you with 3 hits and you defend with 3 hits and a glitch, and you don't want the glitch, this is the better option.

Another example that I witnessed myself was when I asked my players for an infiltration check. They had set up a diversionary maneuver, so I ruled that only a critical glitch would mess this up. The check was mostly thought to create some tension, because the situation was pretty letal if they would be seen. One unlucky character with the suiting name "Lucky" and a dicepool of 8 rolled a critical glitch. He didn't use the negate glitch option and re-rolled the whole test.
And rolled.......... a critical glitch.
I was pretty baffled.

Good old contradictions again: p. 62: "Characters may spend Edge to negate a glitch (p. 74)." p. 74: "You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch."

The description of glitches on p. 62 seems pretty clear that glitches happen independently of number of hits. As soon as the dice pool is rolled with the necessary number of 1s, a glitch happens. Anything you do after that to affect the number of hits is exclusive of that already-occurred event.

We all agree that only one use of Edge can apply to any test. p. 74: "If you spent a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge to that test."

The Rule of Six section at the bottom of p. 62 explicitly states that one die can produce multiple hits. Rerolling does not make more dice, it only makes (potentially) more hits.

So I think that if you are going to use Edge on a dice roll, you can either use it to try to make more hits, or you can use it to negate (the effects of) a glitch. If you spent Edge at the start to get extra dice and rerolls for all misses, then you are SOL if a glitch happens.

But it isn't mentioned that the re-rolling option affects the number of hits at all.

Either you say that your re-rolled result replaces the old result of the test, or you have to say that the re-rolled dice don't effect the result of the test at all. (But the latter doesn't make sense.)
It is not like the other options, where it says:

It doesn't only add more hits. It replaces the result of the dice.

The therm "re-roll" is used a few times in the book, but its nowhere exactly defined what it means, so the developers must have thought that it would be obvious, and simple enough that it doesn't need explanation.

"Replace the old result with the re-rolled result." seems simple and obvious to me.

"Replace the old result with the re-rolled result, but when the old result was a glitch, you have to keep the glitch, but add some hits, and when the old result was a critical glitch, you have to keep the critical glitch, but may have some hits together with a critical glitch now, what is actually not supposed to happen and not covered by the rules, and when the old result was a critical success, your new result may be zero hits, but still count as a critical success for some reason." doesnt seem so simple and obvious to me.

p. 62 contains:
but also:

So the line on p. 72

It isn't really a contradiction, but summary of the two options on page 62.
And it's a very bad summary, since you have to misinterpret it, when you read only it, and not both quotes from page 62.
And it doesn't even refer to page 62

yes, in difference to the rule of the six or the roll-edge-dice-after-the-test option, the re-roll option ("You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.") doesn't say anything about adding hits to the tests total.

Alert! Excessive Rules Lawyering Detected!

You know that you're on shaky ground there.

That's on the same level as D&D not actually having rules for what being dead means.

Keeping the glitch from the old result, athough the dice were re-rolled is bad rule-lawyering to me.

If dice are re-rolled then you have a new result and can forget the old one. That is not rule-lawyering but a straight forwward intuitive interpretation of the rule.

Also, keeping the glitch from before the reroll opens the doors to having double-glitched tests, or tests that both critically succeed and critically glitch, or other manner of controversial and opposing combinations that don't make sense.

fuck yeah! i critglitched, so i get a point of edge back, and then spend it immediately to reroll! Now I the critglitch doesn't go away, but I have a critical SUCCESS! OMG GM what happens?"

Eh?

page 74. Its one of the ways you can get edge back.

Spontaneous combustion, obviously.

I keep forgetting that critglitches do that.

Well, actually this is just a possibility for the GM to apply.

Very true! Even if you take taking out that 'possibilty' of out of the doubleglitch/criticalglitchsuceed equation, its still really dumb. At that point you get into core mechanics abuse that the game didn't envision, and its better to just occhams razor the original problem.

It all really boils down to just one truly viable option:

Rolling a glitch (or critical glitch) means you cannot spend Edge in any way other than negating that glitch (or changing a critical glitch into a glitch).

Anything else is either adding some weirdness or is way too easy.

Bye
Thanee

Indeed... I can live with that.

That doesn't solve the problem since your edge isn't the only way that dice can be re-rolled.

If you roll a critical succes and someone uses the twist fate power (SR4A p. 304) on you, you can still end up with a critical glitch afterwards.
And then you still have a critical succes and a critical glitch at once.
Or you might have a critical succes that doesn't show enough hits to be a critical succes.

IMHO the only way that prevents weirdness is to say: when a die is re-rolled, forget what it showed before. The only result that counts is the new result.

FTFY

The easy answer is to not allow the expenditure of a point of Edge on the same roll from which you got it. Doing so would be a bit time-travelly.

If one were to maintain that the glitch persists following a re-roll or extra dice then it's easy - extra hits both increase the success and lessen the glitch. For a critical glitch I think the text on p.62 implies otherwise - when using Edge to downgrade to a normal glitch* the character still fails the test. To my mind then any extra hits gained from post-roll Edge should be worthless if the critical glitch is still in effect.

* I have only now noticed that the critical glitch section and the Edge section are at odds, one saying you can downgrade to a regular glitch and the other saying you can negate it. Don't know which I prefer yet.