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> Edge and Glitches
Thanee
post Oct 3 2012, 12:05 PM
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I'm always wondering how this is supposed to work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You can use Edge to negate a Glitch.

But can you also use Edge to gain extra hits, despite having rolled a Glitch (without negating it, of course)?

i.e. you roll 10 dice, 2 hits and a Glitch. Can you use Edge to re-roll 8 dice, in order to increase the number of hits you get (but still suffer the Glitch)?

Or does a Glitch automatically negate all other Edge-options (apart from negating the Glitch, that is)?

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 3 2012, 01:17 PM
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If you re-rolled, instead of negating the glitch, then yes, you still have a Glitch (regardless of whether you earned more successes on the re-roll). At least that is how I would rule it. It would make no sense otherwise.

You either -
Negate the Glitch
or
Re-Roll the failed dice (and still have a Glitch)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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bannockburn
post Oct 3 2012, 01:29 PM
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Interesting. I always thought that you can negate a glitch by re-rolling dice without hits. Now I know better. I wonder if I'll keep that houserule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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mister__joshua
post Oct 3 2012, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Oct 3 2012, 02:29 PM) *
Interesting. I always thought that you can negate a glitch by re-rolling dice without hits. Now I know better. I wonder if I'll keep that houserule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


That's how I've always done it too. Never even occured to do it another way
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bannockburn
post Oct 3 2012, 01:41 PM
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I'll need to check my pre-SR4a book later, if it was different back then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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StealthSigma
post Oct 3 2012, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Oct 3 2012, 09:29 AM) *
Interesting. I always thought that you can negate a glitch by re-rolling dice without hits. Now I know better. I wonder if I'll keep that houserule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


There's not enough evidence to prove one way or another.
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Draco18s
post Oct 3 2012, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 3 2012, 09:42 AM) *
There's not enough evidence to prove one way or another.


This. At my table, if you pick up failed dice and reroll them, they're no longer 1s. Glitches aren't determined until after the dice stop rolling.
So at our table you can "negate" a glitch by rerolling the dice.

Maybe it doesn't make sense "any other way" if the rule exists...unless it doesn't make any sense for the rule to exist.

It's like an if(false) { } statement in programming. It'll never execute, but it'll compile anyway!
(Most compilers will throw a warning that it won't ever execute, but there are valid reasons to do it).

(Similarly there's if(a != a) { }--read "if a value does not equal itself," which appears at first glance to always evaluate to false, but there is one case where it will evaluate to true: NaN.* All comparisons for equality to NaN return false. I.e. NaN == NaN will return false, so the inverse will return true).

*Special value, "Not A Number." Happens when you attempt to divide by 0 or similar.
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StealthSigma
post Oct 3 2012, 03:18 PM
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I'm going to throw a wrench at it.

Adding edge to the test should also permit a glitch to be removed by virtue of raising the number of dice rolled. This is a bit weaker since I'm not certain that edge dice are considered part of the dice pool.
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Thanee
post Oct 3 2012, 03:19 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 3 2012, 03:17 PM) *
If you re-rolled, instead of negating the glitch, then yes, you still have a Glitch (regardless of whether you earned more successes on the re-roll).


Yeah, I consider that a given.

Otherwise, re-rolling non-hits would be plain superior.


But that is not really the question.

The question is... can you actually do that?

Can you - if the initial roll is a Glitch (or Critical Glitch) - only use Edge to negate that (or lessen it), or can you also use the other options (but in that case keep the Glitch result)?

What do you guys think?

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Thanee
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mister__joshua
post Oct 3 2012, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 3 2012, 04:19 PM) *
Otherwise, re-rolling non-hits would be plain superior.


Not if the original roll was a pass with glitch, and that's all you needed. Re-rolling non-hits would risk another glitch (a small risk, but avoidable)


I also allow edge used to roll more dice negate glitches if the glitch isn't there at the end of the roll. They can also cause glitches...
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Draco18s
post Oct 3 2012, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 3 2012, 11:19 AM) *
Can you - if the initial roll is a Glitch (or Critical Glitch) - only use Edge to negate that (or lessen it), or can you also use the other options (but in that case keep the Glitch result)?


Here's the thing. If you can "use other options" in the case of a critical glitch, which would reduce it to a regular glitch due to the fact that you likely rolled one hit on the reroll (that is, if rerolling and getting a single hit makes it not-a-critical glitch), then the same would need to be true for regular glitches: the possibility of being eliminated through the alterations of the number of 1s rolled.

So either:

1) Negating a glitch is the only option
2) Rerolling dice also negates glitches

Any middle-state produces weirdness ("So I opt to reroll my failed dice and keep my critical glitch. I rolled three successes. What happens?")
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FriendoftheDork
post Oct 3 2012, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 05:13 PM) *
This. At my table, if you pick up failed dice and reroll them, they're no longer 1s. Glitches aren't determined until after the dice stop rolling.
So at our table you can "negate" a glitch by rerolling the dice.

Maybe it doesn't make sense "any other way" if the rule exists...unless it doesn't make any sense for the rule to exist.

It's like an if(false) { } statement in programming. It'll never execute, but it'll compile anyway!
(Most compilers will throw a warning that it won't ever execute, but there are valid reasons to do it).

(Similarly there's if(a != a) { }--read "if a value does not equal itself," which appears at first glance to always evaluate to false, but there is one case where it will evaluate to true: NaN.* All comparisons for equality to NaN return false. I.e. NaN == NaN will return false, so the inverse will return true).

*Special value, "Not A Number." Happens when you attempt to divide by 0 or similar.


They way I see it it's more like IF (1s >= hits) Glitch = TRUE
Else (may reroll failures).

It doesen't mate sense to allow rerolling failures when glitching, especially considering negating glitch is an edge option. There should also be more advantage to rolling Edge beforehand (less chance of glitch).

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Draco18s
post Oct 3 2012, 04:06 PM
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Negating a glitch isn't useless in the face of rerolls and more dice, it has its use. It is niche, but the option is there for those that want it. Just because sub-optimal options exist doesn't make them redundant (see: most of chargen).

Afterall, if I need two hits, and I have two-hits-and-a-glitch, I don't need to roll more dice (for the same cost, I'll toss out the glitch!).
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forgarn
post Oct 3 2012, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 11:13 AM) *
This. At my table, if you pick up failed dice and reroll them, they're no longer 1s. Glitches aren't determined until after the dice stop rolling.
So at our table you can "negate" a glitch by rerolling the dice.

Maybe it doesn't make sense "any other way" if the rule exists...unless it doesn't make any sense for the rule to exist.

It's like an if(false) { } statement in programming. It'll never execute, but it'll compile anyway!
(Most compilers will throw a warning that it won't ever execute, but there are valid reasons to do it).

(Similarly there's if(a != a) { }--read "if a value does not equal itself," which appears at first glance to always evaluate to false, but there is one case where it will evaluate to true: NaN.* All comparisons for equality to NaN return false. I.e. NaN == NaN will return false, so the inverse will return true).

*Special value, "Not A Number." Happens when you attempt to divide by 0 or similar.



See, at my table, once the dice leave your hand they are rolled and the result is as it is. You can then re-roll the failed dice trying to get more hits, but if you had a glitch on the initial roll you still have one on the re-roll. The only way to get rid of it is to use the edge to negate the glitch. To us, re-rolls do not negate what you have done previously (they don't make it like that never happened). Just our way of looking at it.

By the way, you are not negating the glitch or critical glitch, you are negating the effects of said glitch/crit glitch. So the glitch would still happen, you just do not suffer the effects.
QUOTE (SR4a, pg. 74)
You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch.
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FriendoftheDork
post Oct 3 2012, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 06:06 PM) *
Negating a glitch isn't useless in the face of rerolls and more dice, it has its use. It is niche, but the option is there for those that want it. Just because sub-optimal options exist doesn't make them redundant (see: most of chargen).

Afterall, if I need two hits, and I have two-hits-and-a-glitch, I don't need to roll more dice (for the same cost, I'll toss out the glitch!).



When ever don't you want more hits than two? Besides you can turn a critical glitch to a normal glitch, why would you ever want to do that if you can reroll all dice? Even if you only have a single die (in which case rolling the Edge dice seperately also negates it and gives exploding sixes), it is pretty clear you are intended to use Edge to negate glitch and not just roll more dice.


At least thats what I think and all the GMs I've played under.
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StealthSigma
post Oct 3 2012, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 3 2012, 12:50 PM) *
When ever don't you want more hits than two? Besides you can turn a critical glitch to a normal glitch, why would you ever want to do that if you can reroll all dice? Even if you only have a single die (in which case rolling the Edge dice seperately also negates it and gives exploding sixes), it is pretty clear you are intended to use Edge to negate glitch and not just roll more dice.


Success tests with a threshold of 2 where net hits are extraneous and provide no tangible benefit.
The final extended test where you only need 2 more hits to complete the task.
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Draco18s
post Oct 3 2012, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 3 2012, 01:00 PM) *
Success tests with a threshold of 2 where net hits are extraneous and provide no tangible benefit.
The final extended test where you only need 2 more hits to complete the task.


...And various other things. Say, a test against 2 damage. Or a dodge test where the other guy flubbed and got 1 hit. Or...
(Admittedly those are both success tests with a threshold of 2, effectively, but it does come up)

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 3 2012, 12:50 PM) *
Even if you only have a single die (in which case rolling the Edge dice seperately also negates it and gives exploding sixes), it is pretty clear you are intended to use Edge to negate glitch and not just roll more dice.


Critical glitch on 1 die:

Options:
1) reroll the one die, with a 1 in 6 chance of doing nothing (worst option).
2) downgrade to a regular glitch (effectively adds an automatic hit)
3) roll edge dice which do not get exploding sixes, due to being after the fact, which at low edge values doesn't look so pretty
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Thanee
post Oct 3 2012, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 05:40 PM) *
1) Negating a glitch is the only option
2) Rerolling dice also negates glitches


Why would those be the only options?

1) Negating a glitch is the only option
2) Rerolling dice also negates glitches
3) You check for glitches after the initial roll and they persist
3a) You check again for glitches after using Edge in whatever way
3b) You do not check again for glitches after using Edge in whatever way

All of these seem viable in some way or another.

QUOTE
Any middle-state produces weirdness ("So I opt to reroll my failed dice and keep my critical glitch. I rolled three successes. What happens?")


Yeah, that would certainly be a little weird. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Overall, I am in favor of option 1), I think.

It is interesting to read other people's opinion, though. Apparantly, opinions differ a bit here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee
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StealthSigma
post Oct 3 2012, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 01:03 PM) *
...And various other things. Say, a test against 2 damage. Or a dodge test where the other guy flubbed and got 1 hit. Or...
(Admittedly those are both success tests with a threshold of 2, effectively, but it does come up)


The only time you're ever guaranteed a benefit to hits above what was needs is in attack tests. All other tests are GM fiat on what additional benefit you gain though it is recommended you get something.

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 01:03 PM) *
Critical glitch on 1 die:

Options:
1) reroll the one die, with a 1 in 6 chance of doing nothing (worst option).
2) downgrade to a regular glitch (effectively adds an automatic hit)
3) roll edge dice which do not get exploding sixes, due to being after the fact, which at low edge values doesn't look so pretty


#3 is incorrect. Rolling edge after the test does explode but only for the edge dice. If you add edge prior to the test then all dice explode.
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Draco18s
post Oct 3 2012, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (Thanee @ Oct 3 2012, 01:05 PM) *
Why would those be the only options?

1) Negating a glitch is the only option
2) Rerolling dice also negates glitches
3) You check for glitches after the initial roll and they persist
3a) You check again for glitches after using Edge in whatever way
3b) You do not check again for glitches after using Edge in whatever way

All of these seem viable in some way or another.


Except....in the case of my example. 3 would result in that scenario, which has no solution. Therefore 3 is not a viable option.

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 3 2012, 01:09 PM) *
#3 is incorrect. Rolling edge after the test does explode but only for the edge dice. If you add edge prior to the test then all dice explode.


Touche. That's what I get for being AFB.
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StealthSigma
post Oct 3 2012, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 01:14 PM) *
Except....in the case of my example. 3 would result in that scenario, which has no solution. Therefore 3 is not a viable option.


How about this weirdness from using edge to gain edge dice and explode all dice.

Since a glitch is determined as half the dice pool rolled, what is your dice pool in the below scenario?

You start with 11 dice.
Your edge of 4 is added bringing you up to 15 dice.

You roll.

6 hits (4 6s and 2 5s) and roll 6 1s.

You roll the 4 sixes (bringing you up to 19 dice rolled).

You roll no hits and 2 1s.

So what was your total 1s and your final pool?

Was it 6 or 8 1s and was it a dice pool of 11, 15, or 19?
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Aerospider
post Oct 3 2012, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Oct 3 2012, 04:56 PM) *
They way I see it it's more like IF (1s >=Not1s ) Glitch = TRUE
Else (may reroll failures).

It doesen't mate sense to allow rerolling failures when glitching, especially considering negating glitch is an edge option. There should also be more advantage to rolling Edge beforehand (less chance of glitch).

FTFY
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Draco18s
post Oct 3 2012, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 3 2012, 01:25 PM) *
How about this weirdness from using edge to gain edge dice and explode all dice.

Since a glitch is determined as half the dice pool rolled, what is your dice pool in the below scenario?

You start with 11 dice.
Your edge of 4 is added bringing you up to 15 dice.

You roll.

6 hits (4 6s and 2 5s) and roll 6 1s.

You roll the 4 sixes (bringing you up to 19 dice rolled).

You roll no hits and 2 1s.

So what was your total 1s and your final pool?

Was it 6 or 8 1s and was it a dice pool of 11, 15, or 19?


1s: 6
Pool: 15

Pool is easier, because rerolled dice don't count double for "how big is half." Likewise, the rerolled dice can't be counted as 1s on their second roll, otherwise they'd have been counted twice (once as a hit, once as a 1).

Extra successes from exploding 6s are a unique feature and are explicitly noted.
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Thanee
post Oct 3 2012, 06:09 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 3 2012, 07:14 PM) *
Except....in the case of my example. 3 would result in that scenario, which has no solution. Therefore 3 is not a viable option.


Well, it could be. A critical glitch would just mean, that re-rolling dice would be pointless, since it would still be a catastrophic failure afterwards. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee
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Aerospider
post Oct 3 2012, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 3 2012, 06:25 PM) *
How about this weirdness from using edge to gain edge dice and explode all dice.

Since a glitch is determined as half the dice pool rolled, what is your dice pool in the below scenario?

You start with 11 dice.
Your edge of 4 is added bringing you up to 15 dice.

You roll.

6 hits (4 6s and 2 5s) and roll 6 1s.

You roll the 4 sixes (bringing you up to 19 dice rolled).

You roll no hits and 2 1s.

So what was your total 1s and your final pool?

Was it 6 or 8 1s and was it a dice pool of 11, 15, or 19?

"...add a number of extra dice ... to the dice pool." SR4a p.74
To me that says the dice pool gets bigger, or it would/should say "are rolled in addition to the dice pool".

"Thus dice rolled with Edge can potentially generate more than one hit." SR4a p.62
This implies that the Rule of Six does not increase the dice pool size.

So I'd say 15.

Since a die can generate more than one hit it stands to reason that all values rolled are valid and there is no text I can find that discounts this. Therefore I would call that eight 1s.
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