Hacking Cyberware, Wargarbbbbbbl RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Neurosis]

I have never done this before, but there is a first time for everything. Someone is wrong on the internet nerd rage GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I have a terrible confession to make. I was one of the writers of Shadowrun 5th Edition. Actually, that in and of itself isn't the terrible confession, but I can see why you'd think so with some of the incendiary threads floating around here. The terrible confession is...I'm not sure I like SR5 all that much. I'm not sure I'd want to play it over SR4. Which is doubly fucked because I wrote the first full length adventure for SR5, I've been thinking about/working on SR5 since like 2011, my career progress/job security depends on working on sourcebooks and supplements for SR5, I get paychecks from a company whose revenue stream comes from selling SR5, and so on. But still, nothing about being a Catalyst Freelancer requires me to blindly champion SR5 or sing its praises; I can't lie about the fact that I have serious issues about SR5. I can't get into what those issues are, because that gets way too much into "how the sausage is made" and even now that the book is out, would probably violate NDA.

But one of the most common complaints I've seen people make about SR5, one of the things that some people are up in arms about, is just so overwhelmingly stupid that I can't remain silent about it. There are plenty of at least subjectively valid reasons to dislike SR5...I doubt even any one of the people who wrote it was 100% satisfied with the game, such is the nature of collaborative process...but complaining about the fact that cyberware can be hacked is completely idiotic. And I can address that without even cracking open an SR5 rulebook and getting into the nitty gritty rules on just how goddamn difficult and expensive it is for a decker to even attempt to hack someone's wireless enable cyberware (spoiler: it's way too expensive, and really goddamn hard).

First, before I go any further, I want you all to watch this video. Then, when I'm done making all my counter-arguments to common complaints I've seen, go back and watch this video again. Don't worry, it's under a minute.

SORRY PAL

Gut-check time. Was that...

A) SUPER FREAKING AWESOMSE!
B) Awesome
C) Pretty Cool
D) Laaaaaaaaaaaaame. (If you select this option, get off the internet, you can't be reasoned with.)

You see the primary reason I am baffled by the hue and cry about hacking cyberware is that HACKING CYBERWARE IS FUCKING COOL. It lets your PCs do what Batou just did to that Umibozu commando. And that's fucking awesome. It gives "Combat Hackers" something to hack during combat! Here are the secondary reasons that complaining about cyberware being hackable is stupid. And yes, as the list goes on, liberal use is made of Straw Man arguments (deal; these straw men are based on actual things actual people have actually said).

1) This is not a new thing. Cyberware was hackable in 4th Edition.

Ok....deep breath. Yes, you could switch your cyberware to DNI only, and skinlink everything, and effectively, in Frank Trollman terminology, "set hacking to off". But in casual, non-Missions play, not everyone did this. At my table, we certainly didn't do this. At my table, PCs could hack NPCs, NPCs could hack PCs, and the world went on. Hacking someone's gear was just another avenue of attack and another avenue to defend, like guns and magic. The SR4(A) rules don't explicitly state that cyberware can or cannot be hacked; there are certainly no "wireless bonuses", but I went with the default assumption that yes, Cyberware is a Device, has a Device Rating like anything else, and I could see plenty of in-universe reasons why it should be "always on". Hell, look at the XBone, and that's just a generation away from happening for real, let alone 2075. Think about how often your phone or your XBox or your computer's software needs to install updates. Almost daily, right? Cyberware is the same way, and needs to install firmware packages to stay current and stay relevant; the easiest solution to keeping the firmware up to date would be having it "always online". The security considerations of that are secondary...because no one is supposed to have the tools/talent to be able to hack cyberware anyway!

At my table, you could totally have something like what happened in that video occur in actual play.

That was the rational in my SR4 game. And outside of SR Missions...I am pretty sure that some other people were already running SR4 games where hacking cyberware as a thing you could do!

2) "Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! Hacking cyberware is not realistic! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a time traveling computer science major FROM THE FUTURE.

In that case, elves dragons wizards vampires bug spirits and shape-changing fox people would like to have A FUCKING WORD WITH YOU about "REALISM".

2) "Wahhhhhhhhh! Corporations wouldn't make and sell cyberware that could potentially be hacked! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

This is such a ridiculous and laughable argument it makes me seethe with rage. Because phone companies wouldn't make and sell smartphones that could be cracked, right? Because game companies wouldn't make and sell PS3s that could be cracked, hacked, and 'sploited, right? Because corporations are made of people that are infallible and never make mistakes, right? Because megacorporations--especially in Shadowrun--care WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more about the safety and security of their customers than the bottom line and making a quick buck? Oh, oh wait...oh yeah.

NONE OF THAT IS TRUE.

Megacorporations don't give a SHIT about the safety and security of their customers. You'll buy it because it's like the last one, only better. Then when shit does get hacks'd, they'll spin things to make them look like big damn heroes for trying to catch the hackers/closing the loophole.

And don't forget they make the 'warez and tools that are used for hacking shit...and for anti-hacking defense. So...cha-ching!

3) "Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! No one would ever install cyberware that could be hacked! Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" SHUT UP!

What. The. Fuck. This. Is. Shadowrun. Have you READ Shadowrun, at all? Have you read ANY of the classic SR Novels, at all? They tell the story of street criminals who are responsible members of society that never do anything short-sighted for a quick boost in power that they might one day come to regre---oh, oh wait.

Yeah, that's right, I remember now. In the Shadowrun fiction, people install Cyberware even though it GIVES THEM FUCKING CANCER. People install wired reflexes even though it gradually breaks down over time and stops working and gives them EPILEPSY FOR LIFE! Why? Because they WANT TO BE FASTER, AND DAMN THE CONSEQUENCES. The fact that someone some day might haxor it PALES in comparison to the fact that it could riddle your body with tumors or leave you a helpless twitching mass of SEIZURES, and those things literally don't stop people from installing all the cyberware they can afford.

4) "Wahhhh! Wahhhh! I JUST DON'T LIKE cyberware being hacked! It's icky! Wahhhhh!"

SHUT UP! WATCH THE VIDEO AGAIN!

And I'm done.

*drops mike, feedback squeals, lurches drunkenly off stage and back into obscurity*

[Sendaz]

I imagine they didn't want to swamp new players with too much, so this will come up in the Magic splat book.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

I imagine they didn't want to swamp new players with too much, so this will come up in the Magic splat book.

Good insight. Also, I wonder if it will act on limits, rather than dice pool.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[KCKitsune]

Looks like it.

Really, at any point matrix connectivity is interrupted you can expect to be looking at your awakened counterparts with envy.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

So Awakened become even more powerful since they are much less likely to be sporting cyberware.

[DeathStrobe]

So Awakened become even more powerful since they are much less likely to be sporting cyberware.

But if they're going to min/max their character they'll probably get some chrome, since there is some diminishing returns on submersion.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

So Awakened become even more powerful since they are much less likely to be sporting cyberware.

That's my observation as well, yes.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[KCKitsune]

Show of hands: Does anyone have a major problem with cyber becoming less important

Hey, I was just looking through a friend's book and saw that there was NO WIRELESS BONUS for cybereyes and Ears. So the Awakened can get them, LEAVE THE WIRELESS OFF, and still get the bonuses without ANY drawbacks.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Show of hands: Does anyone have a major problem with cyber becoming less important

The word CYBER is a core component of the genre. I'm not sure how anyone could NOT have a problem with Cyberware becoming less important.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[KCKitsune]

The word CYBER is a core component of the genre. I'm not sure how anyone could NOT have a problem with Cyberware becoming less important.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Yet with all the crap that was done to cyberware there is going to be a whole lot less of it. I mean why run cyberware at all? You were defending that "wireless bonus" crap and because it is so easy to replace all the cyber with bioware/gear, you're going to see a lot less cyberware. Bio is cheaper Essence wise, can't be hacked, is mostly undetectable to scanners, and heals if it is damaged.

Also with Catalyst getting rid of the half-of-the-lower-amount WRT cyber/bioware, then you are going to see a lot more bio-sammies than razorboys.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

You were defending that "wireless bonus" crap.

Don't confuse my exercise in defending some futuristic system from half-baked assaults on how it must operate, with some implicit endorsement of reducing the importance of CYBER in CYBERPUNK. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I just saw a lot of silliness flying around about how a system must, or must not, operate. I weighed in because it's not something I'm unfamiliar with. Not because I think that killing the Samurai is a good move. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That said, I do happen to like the 'Everything has a Price' deal that SR 5 is pursuing, even if I believe that some prices appear to be higher than others. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[KCKitsune]

Don't confuse my exercise in defending some futuristic system from half-baked assaults on how it must operate, with some implicit endorsement of reducing the importance of CYBER in CYBERPUNK. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I just saw a lot of silliness flying around about how a system must, or must not, operate. I weighed in because it's not something I'm unfamiliar with. Not because I think that killing the Samurai is a good move. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That said, I do happen to like the 'Everything has a Price' deal that SR 5 is pursuing, even if I believe that some prices appear to be higher than others. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Except with your "everything has a price" defense kinda falls flat when you look magic. Sure it is going to take a higher level of magic to do the same damage it use to do in 4th edition, but magic is one thing you can get more of. Without having to run the upgrade 'ware rat race, mages are becoming more important. Let's also add in Mystic Adepts, they make the Sammie... Obsolete.

[DeathStrobe]

Yet with all the crap that was done to cyberware there is going to be a whole lot less of it. I mean why run cyberware at all? You were defending that "wireless bonus" crap and because it is so easy to replace all the cyber with bioware/gear, you're going to see a lot less cyberware. Bio is cheaper Essence wise, can't be hacked, is mostly undetectable to scanners, and heals if it is damaged.

Also with Catalyst getting rid of the half-of-the-lower-amount WRT cyber/bioware, then you are going to see a lot more bio-sammies than razorboys.

I haven't run the numbers yet, but I'm pretty sure that a cyber sam will beat out a bio sam any day of the weak in a one on one fight.

And if we bring a team into the mix, with both sams having a decker for support, I'm pretty sure that the decker that is attacking the cyber sam will lose to the cyber sam's decker, since one will have to be distracted by trying to brick gear while the other is busy trying to just kill the other decker.

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

Except with your "everything has a price" defense kinda falls flat when you look magic. Sure it is going to take a higher level of magic to do the same damage it use to do in 4th edition, but magic is one thing you can get more of. Without having to run the upgrade 'ware rat race, mages are becoming more important. Let's also add in Mystic Adepts, they make the Sammie... Obsolete.

Dude, you're preaching to the choir.

Like... I've been whistling that tune for decades, brother.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Slide]

Cyber sam can get a higher bonus on reaction than a bio sam. End of story.

[KCKitsune]

I haven't run the numbers yet, but I'm pretty sure that a cyber sam will beat out a bio sam any day of the weak in a one on one fight.

And if we bring a team into the mix, with both sams having a decker for support, I'm pretty sure that the decker that is attacking the cyber sam will lose to the cyber sam's decker, since one will have to be distracted by trying to brick gear while the other is busy trying to just kill the other decker.

Excuse me, but WTF? With an agent going after the cyber sammie's 'ware and the decker going after the decker he's going to have some problems. Also the Bio-sammie can squeeze in more upgrades than the cyber sammie. Let's look at reflex augmentation.

Wired 3 has an Essence cost of 5 (4 if you go with Alphaware) while Synaptic Booster has an Essence cost of 1.5.

The Wired 3 costs 217,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for the base version, 260,400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) for alphaware. The Synaptic Booster costs 285,000. So for 25,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you get 2.5 more Essence.

[Slide]

Except with your "everything has a price" defense kinda falls flat when you look magic. Sure it is going to take a higher level of magic to do the same damage it use to do in 4th edition, but magic is one thing you can get more of. Without having to run the upgrade 'ware rat race, mages are becoming more important. Let's also add in Mystic Adepts, they make the Sammie... Obsolete.

I'm inclined to agree that in the end magic will beat out cyber, however with out the constant karma drain of magic, I've always been able to up stats and skills much faster than any of the magic characters. Specialization is a strength, but so is diversity and flexibility. Besides, it all comes down to who has the higher edge pool anyways (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[binarywraith]

Yet with all the crap that was done to cyberware there is going to be a whole lot less of it. I mean why run cyberware at all? You were defending that "wireless bonus" crap and because it is so easy to replace all the cyber with bioware/gear, you're going to see a lot less cyberware. Bio is cheaper Essence wise, can't be hacked, is mostly undetectable to scanners, and heals if it is damaged.

Also with Catalyst getting rid of the half-of-the-lower-amount WRT cyber/bioware, then you are going to see a lot more bio-sammies than razorboys.

Literally the only reasons I'm currently finding to run cyber are :

Stacking Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enancers

Cyberlimb armor.


That's it.

I haven't run the numbers yet, but I'm pretty sure that a cyber sam will beat out a bio sam any day of the weak in a one on one fight.

You are seriously, seriously wrong here. The bio-sam is going to be down, at most, 2 points of reaction out of chargen, and possibly some armor if the sam had enough essence left to get cyberlimbs with armor.

That's it. Everything else cyberware does right now can be duplicated by bioware or gear, and bioware's lower essence cost means you can pack more of it in.



That said, the mystic adept will school either of them until the nerfbat gets to him.

[Shadow Knight]

Wireless brought up a concept which I hadn't considered; that the cloud supports an ongoing model, and the wireless model is just to provide real-time 'nudges'; additional data to keep the model current, and in exchange, the model provides updated direction. In the case of wireless reflexes, the model might be a physiological 'body simulator'. You feed it current updated medical data and in return it optimizes the system and feeds those optimizations back to you. This is the sort of computational complexity where the cloud proves its worth.

The downside of course is that now you're paying for hosting, plus you're uploading you're physiological data to the cloud. So makes perfect sense for corporate security, but not at all for a runner. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for simple functions like said baton.

If we accept this premise, then logically the action 'cost' of cyberware in previous editions is suffering from time inflation. What was a Simple Action in SR3 is now a Complex Action in SR5. The issue here is twofold;
1) There's nothing in the rules to indicate this is the case (I ASSUME! Like I said, I haven't read the rule-books. But I feel okay going out on this limb.)
2) The inflation shouldn't be limited to cyberware. If cyberware is 20% faster, then either magical spells, physical adepts, and normal people are also going faster for some reason, or, well, it's all just one giant retcon and cyber was never comparable in speed to magic in the first place.

The cloud model also brings up a lot more potential plot hooks. After all, this data is there, on a server somewhere. Renraku's rockin' cyberzombie is fully modeled, and a hacker can access that server, download the information to determine vulnerabilities, implant logic bombs, even remote control the zombie.

The problem with that is the time to transmit the data and get it back will have you lagging behind the events you are trying to react to. The point is to be going faster not slower. and there is absolutely no way for the data to be radioed away and back and processed. Those are precious nano seconds wasted. where you could be reacting. It does not matter how fast the processing is. The round trip adds too much lag.

[DeathStrobe]

The problem with that is the time to transmit the data and get it back will have you lagging behind the events you are trying to react to. The point is to be going faster not slower. and there is absolutely no way for the data to be radioed away and back and processed. Those are precious nano seconds wasted. where you could be reacting. It does not matter how fast the processing is. The round trip adds too much lag.

This is the future, there is no lag. Unless you are trying to hack the moon, then there are rules for lag then. But sending data around the world? No lag. Impossible? Literally, yes, but in Shadowrun tech has moved beyond our understanding so it does all kinds of weird things we don't understand, like the Resonance Realms.

[Shadow Knight]

This is the future, there is no lag. Unless you are trying to hack the moon, then there are rules for lag then. But sending data around the world? No lag. Impossible? Literally, yes, but in Shadowrun tech has moved beyond our understanding so it does all kinds of weird things we don't understand, like the Resonance Realms.

So they have broken the speed of light limitations? I don't think so.

[RHat]

So they have broken the speed of light limitations? I don't think so.

Lag is not of sufficient scale as to be rules relevant unless dealing with extreme situations. This has been the case since the very start of SR4, where there very fastest possible characters were those in hot-sim VR with the right upgrades.

[Stahlseele]

So, it's faster to go from a to b to c instead of going from a to c in a straight line then?

[KarmaInferno]

This is the future, there is no lag. Unless you are trying to hack the moon, then there are rules for lag then. But sending data around the world? No lag. Impossible? Literally, yes, but in Shadowrun tech has moved beyond our understanding so it does all kinds of weird things we don't understand, like the Resonance Realms.

"Because Magic!"


-k

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

The problem with that is the time to transmit the data and get it back will have you lagging behind the events you are trying to react to. The point is to be going faster not slower. and there is absolutely no way for the data to be radioed away and back and processed. Those are precious nano seconds wasted. where you could be reacting. It does not matter how fast the processing is. The round trip adds too much lag.

Well...

...Precious Nano seconds can be wasted in a lot of places. It really depends on where you want to waste them. In some cases, you'll be wasting precious nanoseconds by not sending a call for a distributed resource.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[Draco18s]

Well...In some cases, you'll be wasting precious nanoseconds by not sending a call for a distributed resource.

In SOME cases, yes. But in ALL?

Afterall, that's what you've been arguing isn't it?

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

In SOME cases, yes. But in ALL?

Afterall, that's what you've been arguing isn't it?

Nope, the opposite actually. A system with undetermined requirements, design, and implementation is impossible to define. We can determine how it may behave in one way, or another, but there is no requirement that it must operate that given way.

That determination is really made by whoever built it in the sixth world.

(Consequently, this is why I have put 'may' and 'must' in italics so many times over the last 30 pages of this thread.)

-Wired_SR_AEGIS