Enhanced Aim + Dual Wielding Guns, What modifier applies? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Wireknight]

I ruled that Enhanced Aim doesn't need to be resisted, since otherwise you'd just about need a supercomputer to dynamically calculate resistance results of all targets(organic and inorganic) within a certain base radius of the subject of the spell. I can't even imagine extended range; imagine running through a crowd. The number-crunching would approach large-scale algorithmic levels.

[Kanada Ten]

I just roll once for the masses, and once again for special targets (like Adepts with Spell Shroud).
Two rolls per Enhanced Aim, no problems.

Inorgantic things do not make resistance tests.

[Cain]

[Lilt]

Except that you only ever need to bother if you shoot someone. Inorganic objects can't resist either. The first time you attempt to shoot someone; you roll for resistance. It's slightly more complex but you don't need a supercomputer. The computational complexity doesn't increase either, it's linear which is almost as good as it gets complexity-wise.

[BitBasher]

Or Cain, make em pay karma during the casting before the dice roll. Issue solved. I have never had this issue. After having a dual natured PC once no players ever wanted to deal with the hassle of anything like it again. They also didn't like the fact that it could be "nuked from orbit" via projecting mage.

[Sphynx]

So Cain, you adding +2 TN to your 2nd Mana Bolt against a target? That's a dumb idea. For one, he's having to wait for Karma Pool refreshes (which isn't as common in our games as in others), so the frustration of having to try a failed attempt isn't even there.

Bitbasher, what issue? Unlike the sounds of your games, our GM is a partner in a storytelling, not our adversary (obviously, we get -6 for 12 successes).

Anyhows, paying the Quickening Karma before the casting is just as dumb because you immediately create a Player vs. GM atmosphere.

Sphynx

[Zazen]

There's no problem if you don't house rule Enhance Aim to be super powerful. I don't think there's a need to penalize repeated attempts.

[Cain]

[BitBasher]

Cain is entirely right on the TN thing by canon....

and as far as:

[Sphynx]

Ok Cain, I'll pretend for a moment that what you're saying is not stupid. You're saying that if my first manabolt doesn't hit, the 2nd is at +2TN. I suppose the same applies to firearm shots, miss the first shot and the 2nd is at +2TN, interesting. Guess that'd also apply to melee, miss the 1st attack, and +2 to the next attack. So basically, what you're saying is that if I ever miss on the first pass, I lose the entire scene... but wait, no, you said that my casting, though happening days later gets the +2, so you're not at +2 for the scene, you're at +2 for anytime you later decide to shoot at that same guy, thus almost assuring a failed attack for another +2.

Ok, I'll try to keep an open mind here and figure out what part of stupid that isn't.

Sphynx

[Sphynx]

Actually, on retrospect, my apologies to being insulting Cain. You're right, I shouldn't call it stupid that you have a different viewpoint than my own and will keep any further discussion a bit more objective.

I do think though, that it is a bad idea to give a +2TN to the recasting of a non-failed test. At least in the ManaBolt example, the test failed, but not in the casting of the Enhance Aim. Waiting until you get a ton of successes is just smart. Often I Quickened, not because I was planning to, but because I had a spell I was sustaining that I just couldn't beleive I rolled as many successes as I did. The idea of Quickening is that you do it to a Sustained spell, not necessarily at the moment you cast it. So insisting on pay-karma-first would be an obvious 'pick on the player' causing the GM vs Player atmosphere, not something that enhances the 'fun' but rather something that makes a Polaris out of people.

Sphynx

[Cain]

Well, the +2 is by scene. Really, I apply it anytime people keep trying the same thing repeatedly-- one definition of stupidity is doing the exact same thing and expecting different results. Really, it only applies within a scene, as long as the situation doesn't change.

I did add that if he tried, failed, and dropped the spell to go off for a cup of coffee, that would be a different matter. That represents time spent reconsidering what he may have done wrong. But if you try the same thing over and over and over without taking a moment to reconsider or figure out something new to try-- quite frankly, IMO you deserve what you get.

So, let's look at the mage in your example, facing an opponent with no magical protection. "I know!" he thinks. "I'll manabolt him!" Well, that manabolt fails. Knowing this, what does the mage in your example do again? Another manabolt! And since that one failed, what will he try next? Yet another manabolt! The sheer Darwinian logic of the situation means that mage deserves to die.

On the other hand, if the guy had Spell Defense/Shielding, and the mage cast a low-force manabolt to strip it off, and followed it with a more powerful one-- that would be trying something different. The penalty is for repeating the exact same action that didn't work in the first place. Or if the mage cast a manabolt, saw that it didn't work, and responded with a different spell; or if the mage decided to shoot the opponent, or decided he was too rough to tangle with and sent in a spirit... all of these are intelligent choices, and don't incur the penalty.

Here's another example. Remember, the +2 applies when the situation doesn't change. So, you've got a guy standing in the open, not dodging, and you're ready to shoot him. You roll, and get zero successes-- not a botch, thank heavens, but zero successes. You're going to be extremely frustrated as you go for the second shot, and the third, and so on. If you pull the trigger once, and miss, what makes you think you'll hit the second time if you don't change something? Generally, most players will use their next action for an Aim/Shoot combination, or will switch firing modes and rain lead downrange. Those all count as "tryng something different".

Or let's look at melee combat. I actually had this happen with my rigger character, who was learning Aikido. I instigated a melee attack on someone in order to subdue him, and failed. Luckily, I didn't get hurt; but it was clear that he was better than I was, and trying basic attacks would not get me anywhere. But luckily, there's lots of options, all of which could change the situation. First of all, I activated my Evasion maneuver, and went full defensive. Because of it, I evaded his next attack; the +2 didn't apply since I wasn't doing the same thing as before. After that, I couldn't instigate a melee attack, so I tried something different-- I triggered my Superflash eyes. My opponent scored no successes against me, and was affected fully. When my turn next came around, I then switched back over to normal attacks and proceeded to beat the crap out of him. This wasn't the same as before, since last time I was facing a wary opponent and this time I was beating up a blind guy; so the +2 didn't apply.

See how that works?

[Sphynx]

As long as we both agree that a 'breather space' between attempts doesn't cause a +2TN, then we seem to completely agree. :P I just couldn't believe that someone would apply the +2 for casting the same spell at a later date because he didn't get as many successes as he wanted on this date.

Sphynx

[Zazen]

[Cochise]

[ialdabaoth]

Out of curiosity, what is the "Enhanced Aim" spell, and which SB is it in?

[Sphynx]

Man, I did NOT want to ask that question cause it was so rapidly double posted that I thought it was one of those House Rules I had that I didn't know I had to ignore that rule. Glad someone else asked, thought I'd look stupid if I asked (at least now we'll both look dumb, eh?). :P

Sphynx

[Cochise]

@ ialdabaoth

p. 141 Magic in the Shadows ... A detection spell that allows to reduce TNs for ranged attacks ...

[Sphynx]

[Cochise]

[ialdabaoth]

Nice. So you could make an orichalcum bow/sustaining focus that had a force 6 Enhance Aim spell built into it?

[Zazen]

Even better, an orichalcum penis ring so that writing ones name in the snow becomes like fine calligraphy.

[Siege]

Uh oh, I'll head off the inevitable: adept with guns?

Ok, please continue.

-Siege

[Lilt]

The focus must be kept in contact with the spell, the spell is cast on the character. A sustaiming-focus weapon would deactivate if it ever left your person thus there is a serious flaw with that plan.

I agree that extra attempts can apply a +2 modifier to subsequent tests, but if you are going to apply it to spellcasting then why not firearms or rigging? It is by no means cannon that a +2 is applied to all tests after any failed attempts that scene.

In any case; the character in question succeeds at casting the spell but, under scrutinization of the spell, decides that he can do better and tries again. I don't believe you'll find anywhrer that it says you get a +2 to subsequent tests if you succeed at a test.

[Cain]