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Fonitrus
One of my players raised an issue about whether the -#TN benefit from an Enhance Aim spell works with dual wielding guns.

I know SLs,scopes,lazers and other gunmods dont help when dual wielding and u get ur +2 TN for dual wielding plus damages plus vision mods..

But what if a mage cast a lvl 6 Enhance Aim with 6 successes riding behind it..so thats -3TN to the guy with dual guns.

Does that -3TN apply to:

A. Both attack tests (-3TN per gun)
B.1. Only the first or the second (shooter choses)
B.2. Only the first or the second (caster choses)
C. Shooter choses to split the -3 inot maybe -2 and -1 or such?

the spell isnt quite specific on this matter, so ... please help.
Kanada Ten
I though it said every ranged attack... Ouch: That is nice.
FlakJacket
Yeah, I'd say since it was a spell that's always on, you'd get the boonus for all your attacks. Although it's pretty hard getting enough sucesses on the casting to get a -3TN to begin with. Plus, just remember that as a spell it has an effective range that it doesn't work past IIRC.
Fortune
QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Plus, just remember that as a spell it has an effective range that it doesn't work past IIRC.

That's why you always use the Extended variation. Balance that increase out with the Personal modification if you aren't planning on casting it on others. smile.gif
Zazen
Note also that this spell is resisted by the people you're shooting at, which can reduce your bonus.

I house rule that away, though. I imagine plenty of others do as well.
El_Machinae
Wha-? Why?
mfb
it's a detection spell. detection spells are resisted.
El_Machinae
Crikey, you learn something new every day. We've just been using the higher target numbers, based on the difficulty.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (El_Machinae)
Crikey, you learn something new every day.

Did you just use the word crikey as an exclamation in a proper sentence? Oh I am so showing this to Jes. Bwack-ack-ack. biggrin.gif
El_Machinae
Yes, yes I did. But you seem to be implying more information than I am understanding.

What is wrong with what I did? According to Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: cri·key
Function: interjection
Etymology: euphemism for Christ
-- used as a mild oath

Looks like I'm in the clear.

And what does Bwack-ack-ack mean?
Reaver
Crikey was something Penfold always said to Danger Mouse. If you've ever watched the cartoons. smile.gif
Sphynx
Yeah, the Enhance Aim is very weak unless you have a good 6 Karma Pool and some Quickening under your sleeve. My friend recently pulled it off and tattoo'd/quickened a Force 6 on himself with 30 dice and 3 rerolls for 15 successes and went from the local detection/weakling to pretty bad-ass with a gun. -7, but took him almost 150ish karma to get to that point.

Sphynx
Cochise
Interesting considering tha fact that the maximum negative modifier for Enhance Aim is half the spell's actual force (not the one used for purposes of dispelling when tattooed or quickened) .. In this case Force 6 / 2 = 3 ...

Not to mention those somewhat high numbers of dice / successes .. But as I recall these are pretty standard in your games ...
Sphynx
Sheeze... forgot we House ruled that one to a max of Force. Sorry. nyahnyah.gif

BTW, Cochise, you can roll as often as you like and wait til you get a good roll to quicken (even with a tattoo, the description only states that once the tattoo is ready you can quicken as above). He tried repeatedly til he got 12+, which took 3 rolls and ended in 15. Though, I imgine that's considered munchkin in most games, we call it fun factor. nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Cain
I wouldn't call it munchkin; but if he tried it multiple times in a row, I'd apply the +2 repeating-a-failed-task modifier.
BitBasher
I was just typing that cain.
Cochise
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Sheeze... forgot we House ruled that one to a max of Force.  Sorry.  nyahnyah.gif


That would still require a Force 7 spell anyway to accomplish what described above ... not Force 6 ...

QUOTE
BTW, Cochise, you can roll as often as you like and wait til you get a good roll to quicken (even with a tattoo, the description only states that once the tattoo is ready you can quicken as above).  He tried repeatedly til he got 12+, which took 3 rolls and ended in 15.


I know ... But it still is not very common to have spellcasters sling 30 dice (I know it's possible, but to me that's still not standard. No matter what you say (or Polaris would, considering his *must take every thing to the extreme*-attitude).

And characters with the possibility to take consecutive 3 re-rolls need a karma pool of at least 1+2+4 = 7 => Something that isn't extraordinary when looking at the 150 karma he obviously spent on it.
But in my games players tend to burn karma pool every once in a while. So my players usually don't have that much karma pool availible ...

QUOTE
Though, I imgine that's considered munchkin in most games, we call it fun factor.  nyahnyah.gif


I won't call it munchkin, since that is not my judgement to make. If it pleases you and your group that's fine with me.
But I still don't consider you or your gaming group as being "standard" wink.gif
Sphynx
Not a Force 7 cause he uses Laser Sights. nyahnyah.gif

The +2 is for repeating failed attempts, not for recasting it at a later time for more successes. That'd be a stupid time to add a +2.

Sphynx
ialdabaoth
Heh. He Used Centering, of course, right?
Sphynx
Center against what? Centering reduces penalties, not base TN's.

Sphynx
ialdabaoth
You can also Center for extra successes, I believe?
Sphynx
Ah, good point, but I don't think he did. Centering is too expensive and the only artistic skill he has (that I know of) is tattooing, which I don't iamgine he could center with. nyahnyah.gif However, I honestly don't know, that was between him and the GM, I just know he gets -7 (-1 from Laser Sight) and rolled 30 dice.

Sphynx
ialdabaoth
I'd definitely allow centering with art, even with (hell, especially with) tattooing. It all ties together, after all.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Cochise)
3 re-rolls need a karma pool of at least 1+2+4 = 7
For rerolls our team uses 1+2+3 = 6, as per SR3 p. 246.
Cochise
QUOTE (OurTeam)
For rerolls our team uses 1+2+3 = 6, as per SR3 p. 246.

You're right of course ...
Doesn't change what is "common" in my group(s) though ...
Wireknight
I ruled that Enhanced Aim doesn't need to be resisted, since otherwise you'd just about need a supercomputer to dynamically calculate resistance results of all targets(organic and inorganic) within a certain base radius of the subject of the spell. I can't even imagine extended range; imagine running through a crowd. The number-crunching would approach large-scale algorithmic levels.
Kanada Ten
I just roll once for the masses, and once again for special targets (like Adepts with Spell Shroud).
Two rolls per Enhanced Aim, no problems.

Inorgantic things do not make resistance tests.
Cain
QUOTE (Sphynx)
The +2 is for repeating failed attempts, not for recasting it at a later time for more successes. That'd be a stupid time to add a +2.

The +2 is for representing the frustration of not doing what you wanted. If he managed to pull it all off with one roll + karma rerolls, then he's not subject to it. However, if he tries and rolls 8 successes, then if he dropped the spell and started again immediately; I'd rule it applied on the grounds that he didn't manage to do what he was going for.

If he tried, didn't score enough successes, dropped the spell and went off for a cup of coffee to contemplate matters, that would be different than what you described.
Lilt
Except that you only ever need to bother if you shoot someone. Inorganic objects can't resist either. The first time you attempt to shoot someone; you roll for resistance. It's slightly more complex but you don't need a supercomputer. The computational complexity doesn't increase either, it's linear which is almost as good as it gets complexity-wise.
BitBasher
Or Cain, make em pay karma during the casting before the dice roll. Issue solved. I have never had this issue. After having a dual natured PC once no players ever wanted to deal with the hassle of anything like it again. They also didn't like the fact that it could be "nuked from orbit" via projecting mage.
Sphynx
So Cain, you adding +2 TN to your 2nd Mana Bolt against a target? That's a dumb idea. For one, he's having to wait for Karma Pool refreshes (which isn't as common in our games as in others), so the frustration of having to try a failed attempt isn't even there.

Bitbasher, what issue? Unlike the sounds of your games, our GM is a partner in a storytelling, not our adversary (obviously, we get -6 for 12 successes).

Anyhows, paying the Quickening Karma before the casting is just as dumb because you immediately create a Player vs. GM atmosphere.

Sphynx
Zazen
There's no problem if you don't house rule Enhance Aim to be super powerful. I don't think there's a need to penalize repeated attempts.
Cain
QUOTE (Sphynx)
So Cain, you adding +2 TN to your 2nd Mana Bolt against a target? That's a dumb idea.

As a matter of fact, that's exactly what the rules say. If you try to accomplish X and fail, most repeated tests will add to your TN.

Let's look at the manabolt case. If you want that guy dead, so you throw a 6D manabolt at him. However, he resists, which means he takes zero damage. You've failed, and the +2 TN applies to your next hit.

What you're describing is more if you're throwing a 6M manabolt. You want him hurt, and for preference dead, but you'll clearly settle for hurt. If the other guy takes any damage, you've succeded and the +2TN doesn't apply on your next manabolt.

In the case you describe, the mage wants Enhance Aim with 12 successes, and won't settle for anything less. If he tries repeatedly for that, and fails, then the modifier does apply.

So, please keep the comments like: "That's stupid" to yourself, all right?
BitBasher
Cain is entirely right on the TN thing by canon....

and as far as:
QUOTE
Bitbasher, what issue? Unlike the sounds of your games, our GM is a partner in a storytelling, not our adversary (obviously, we get -6 for 12 successes).
My game is not remotely me vs them. I run a game where the entire point of it is the story, thats what keeps players coming back, and attaches you to a character.
Sphynx
Ok Cain, I'll pretend for a moment that what you're saying is not stupid. You're saying that if my first manabolt doesn't hit, the 2nd is at +2TN. I suppose the same applies to firearm shots, miss the first shot and the 2nd is at +2TN, interesting. Guess that'd also apply to melee, miss the 1st attack, and +2 to the next attack. So basically, what you're saying is that if I ever miss on the first pass, I lose the entire scene... but wait, no, you said that my casting, though happening days later gets the +2, so you're not at +2 for the scene, you're at +2 for anytime you later decide to shoot at that same guy, thus almost assuring a failed attack for another +2.

Ok, I'll try to keep an open mind here and figure out what part of stupid that isn't.

Sphynx
Sphynx
Actually, on retrospect, my apologies to being insulting Cain. You're right, I shouldn't call it stupid that you have a different viewpoint than my own and will keep any further discussion a bit more objective.

I do think though, that it is a bad idea to give a +2TN to the recasting of a non-failed test. At least in the ManaBolt example, the test failed, but not in the casting of the Enhance Aim. Waiting until you get a ton of successes is just smart. Often I Quickened, not because I was planning to, but because I had a spell I was sustaining that I just couldn't beleive I rolled as many successes as I did. The idea of Quickening is that you do it to a Sustained spell, not necessarily at the moment you cast it. So insisting on pay-karma-first would be an obvious 'pick on the player' causing the GM vs Player atmosphere, not something that enhances the 'fun' but rather something that makes a Polaris out of people.

Sphynx
Cain
Well, the +2 is by scene. Really, I apply it anytime people keep trying the same thing repeatedly-- one definition of stupidity is doing the exact same thing and expecting different results. Really, it only applies within a scene, as long as the situation doesn't change.

I did add that if he tried, failed, and dropped the spell to go off for a cup of coffee, that would be a different matter. That represents time spent reconsidering what he may have done wrong. But if you try the same thing over and over and over without taking a moment to reconsider or figure out something new to try-- quite frankly, IMO you deserve what you get.

So, let's look at the mage in your example, facing an opponent with no magical protection. "I know!" he thinks. "I'll manabolt him!" Well, that manabolt fails. Knowing this, what does the mage in your example do again? Another manabolt! And since that one failed, what will he try next? Yet another manabolt! The sheer Darwinian logic of the situation means that mage deserves to die.

On the other hand, if the guy had Spell Defense/Shielding, and the mage cast a low-force manabolt to strip it off, and followed it with a more powerful one-- that would be trying something different. The penalty is for repeating the exact same action that didn't work in the first place. Or if the mage cast a manabolt, saw that it didn't work, and responded with a different spell; or if the mage decided to shoot the opponent, or decided he was too rough to tangle with and sent in a spirit... all of these are intelligent choices, and don't incur the penalty.

Here's another example. Remember, the +2 applies when the situation doesn't change. So, you've got a guy standing in the open, not dodging, and you're ready to shoot him. You roll, and get zero successes-- not a botch, thank heavens, but zero successes. You're going to be extremely frustrated as you go for the second shot, and the third, and so on. If you pull the trigger once, and miss, what makes you think you'll hit the second time if you don't change something? Generally, most players will use their next action for an Aim/Shoot combination, or will switch firing modes and rain lead downrange. Those all count as "tryng something different".

Or let's look at melee combat. I actually had this happen with my rigger character, who was learning Aikido. I instigated a melee attack on someone in order to subdue him, and failed. Luckily, I didn't get hurt; but it was clear that he was better than I was, and trying basic attacks would not get me anywhere. But luckily, there's lots of options, all of which could change the situation. First of all, I activated my Evasion maneuver, and went full defensive. Because of it, I evaded his next attack; the +2 didn't apply since I wasn't doing the same thing as before. After that, I couldn't instigate a melee attack, so I tried something different-- I triggered my Superflash eyes. My opponent scored no successes against me, and was affected fully. When my turn next came around, I then switched back over to normal attacks and proceeded to beat the crap out of him. This wasn't the same as before, since last time I was facing a wary opponent and this time I was beating up a blind guy; so the +2 didn't apply.

See how that works?
Sphynx
As long as we both agree that a 'breather space' between attempts doesn't cause a +2TN, then we seem to completely agree. nyahnyah.gif I just couldn't believe that someone would apply the +2 for casting the same spell at a later date because he didn't get as many successes as he wanted on this date.

Sphynx
Zazen
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 23 2003, 02:02 PM)
Here's another example.  Remember, the +2 applies when the situation doesn't change.  So, you've got a guy standing in the open, not dodging, and you're ready to shoot him.  You roll, and get zero successes-- not a botch, thank heavens, but zero successes.  You're going to be extremely frustrated as you go for the second shot, and the third, and so on.  If you pull the trigger once, and miss, what makes you think you'll hit the second time if you don't change something?

I'm curious, do you actually apply a +2 for shots fired after a miss (under identical conditions, as you've said) in your game?
Cochise
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Cain is entirely right on the TN thing by canon....


Really? Could you provide a page reference?
Because the only rule that comes to my mind is the cumulative +2 on subsequent trials of assensing someone ...
ialdabaoth
Out of curiosity, what is the "Enhanced Aim" spell, and which SB is it in?
Sphynx
Man, I did NOT want to ask that question cause it was so rapidly double posted that I thought it was one of those House Rules I had that I didn't know I had to ignore that rule. Glad someone else asked, thought I'd look stupid if I asked (at least now we'll both look dumb, eh?). nyahnyah.gif

Sphynx
Cochise
@ ialdabaoth

p. 141 Magic in the Shadows ... A detection spell that allows to reduce TNs for ranged attacks ...

Sphynx
QUOTE (ialdabaoth)
Out of curiosity, what is the "Enhanced Aim" spell, and which SB is it in?

Magic in the Shadows
Cochise
QUOTE (Sphynx)
(at least now we'll both look dumb, eh?).  nyahnyah.gif

Dumb? No ... I'd account it to my personal version of Alzheimer's disease ... biggrin.gif
ialdabaoth
Nice. So you could make an orichalcum bow/sustaining focus that had a force 6 Enhance Aim spell built into it?
Zazen
Even better, an orichalcum penis ring so that writing ones name in the snow becomes like fine calligraphy.
Siege
Uh oh, I'll head off the inevitable: adept with guns?

Ok, please continue.

-Siege
Lilt
The focus must be kept in contact with the spell, the spell is cast on the character. A sustaiming-focus weapon would deactivate if it ever left your person thus there is a serious flaw with that plan.

I agree that extra attempts can apply a +2 modifier to subsequent tests, but if you are going to apply it to spellcasting then why not firearms or rigging? It is by no means cannon that a +2 is applied to all tests after any failed attempts that scene.

In any case; the character in question succeeds at casting the spell but, under scrutinization of the spell, decides that he can do better and tries again. I don't believe you'll find anywhrer that it says you get a +2 to subsequent tests if you succeed at a test.
Cain
QUOTE
I'm curious, do you actually apply a +2 for shots fired after a miss (under identical conditions, as you've said) in your game?

Considering that identical situations don't happen all that often, yes. If you're shooting at a guy who's not moving, but is under cover, if you shoot and miss you can assume that the "reflexive" shots just won't be good enough unless you're lucky. If he moves, or if you take a moment to aim, that changes the situation enough to where the +2 doesn't apply.

Very few situations are static enough to warrant the +2 modifier. Generally, only B/R tests during combat are worthy of it.
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