 Spirit Movement power vs Vehicles, how does this work? |
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 Aug 14 2007, 03:36 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 8-September 06 Member No.: 9,334  |
Hi Guys
Can the spirit power Movement be used on a vechile within its domain e.g. Air Elemental on Plane? |
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Aug 14 2007, 03:41 AM
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#2
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yes.
-Frank |
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| Guest_Seyluun_* |
Aug 14 2007, 05:33 AM
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#3
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Guests |
If you go by the RAW Movement is incredibly broken. Even a small spirit can destroy any vehicle in its domain by increasing its speed until it dislocate, no roll needed. It's a world breaker.
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Aug 14 2007, 05:41 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
It's a time dilation effect. Physics aren't changed. This has been discussed ad nauseum before. Sorry no movemented bullet effects. Not a world breaker, just practically impossible to catch someone with movement on them unless you use spells and spirits yourself. |
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Aug 14 2007, 06:09 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
You have some sources, topics, URL? I'm interested. |
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Aug 14 2007, 06:17 AM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
This issue has been discussed numerous times. And the time dilation answer is not the only positted one. But it's the best answer came up with for the age old question "Why does a bullet enhanced with movement reach a target a kilometer away in 1/2 a second, yet not inflict any extra damage for doing so?" Time and Space move, effective speed is unchanged. Being enhanced or slowed by Movement does not make you hungrier, or catch fire, or do any of the other exciting things that would actually happen if you simply added an extra 100 kph to the speed of a running man inside of a 3 second time frame. DocWagon vehicles are sometimes enhanced by Movement, and this causes them to get to their patients in less time. It doesn't cause them to run off the road and explode. -Frank |
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Aug 14 2007, 06:21 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Wouldn't it? It increases a vehicles speed and aren't the difficulty of the driving tests based off of speed? |
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Aug 14 2007, 06:58 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
I think more importantly that interpretation prevents GMs crying at the blatent misuse of the power. "You want to do what with the remote rigged car going 1100mph?" You get the idea. |
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Aug 14 2007, 08:22 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 8-September 06 Member No.: 9,334 |
Many thanks!
Would the correct type of spirit to slow/speed a car be Earth Elemental? or Air? or something else...... |
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Aug 14 2007, 08:27 AM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Earth, Air, Man, whatever Domain could possibly fit the situation.
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Aug 14 2007, 09:22 AM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Hmmm....
What happens if you put movement power on an arrow and fire it on someone? Will it go so fast it becomes impossible to dodge? |
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Aug 14 2007, 11:10 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 101 Joined: 29-October 05 Member No.: 7,908 |
No, it doesn't. Understanding Movement as a magical power is sort of like understanding 3rd Ed Shadowrun Computers. Just as you have to take your understanding of the subject matter, and put it to the side. The sole ramification of Movement is that the recipient gets to their destination in 1/Force amount of the time it would normally take. It is probably one of the more difficult effects for players to wrap their head around because it is counter-intuitive to physics based reasoning. On a symbolic level, Movement has no effect on the universe aside from being someplace faster. Somehow collisions, impact, inertia, etc... are magically unaffected. As for dodging an arrow, bullets are already too fast to dodge. But people can dodge the aim of their attacker. Arrows are slow enough for normal people to sidestep in midflight, but for the sake of our sanity the Devs condensed the dodge rules into a single procedure. I mean, imagine... having a GM keep track of arrows in flight because the archer has MBW and can fire faster than the arrows would hit their target. Or imagine super trolls that can run faster than the arrows can fly. Abschalten's speed adept build, Endzone, could fire an arrow and then catch it at the opposite end of a football field without using a parabolic arc. |
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Aug 14 2007, 02:08 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,598 Joined: 24-May 03 Member No.: 4,629 |
Watch physics dance!
Basicly, you don't move faster, you just get there quicker. Kinda like taking a short cut. Even if you had a straight shot (Such as flying in a plane), teh spirit finds you a shorter path, magically. It's the closest thing to teleporting that Shadowrun has. You just get there in a shorter length of time. |
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Aug 14 2007, 02:52 PM
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#14
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...auuuuuuuugh!
[Throws up hands in disgust at the mere notion of a Yugo doing mach 1.1] I'm sticking to SRIII rules that it only affects acceleration/deceleration rates. Wait a moment, SR4 doesn't have acc/dcc anymore? Just movement? ...auuuuuuuugh! OK vehicle stress, a Yugo will usually begin to disintegrate above 130 KPH. What, no vehicle stress value either? ...auuuuuuuugh! OK handling, I can get them on handling. There's "Dead Man's Curve" up ahead. Letsee 1,100 kph = a penalty bigger than any dice pool would be even with edge thrown in there. Longshot test? Time Dilation? "It's Magic"? ...auuuuuuuugh! It's all so terribly broken. ....Johannes, Sir Isaac, Albert, please hear the cry of a lone disciple in the wilderness |
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Aug 14 2007, 03:23 PM
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#15
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I'm afraid you're wrong about that. In SR3 a critter using movement had to make a test to increase or decrease a vehicle's speed by a multiple of the acceleration rate of the vehicle - which you could continue to apply from turn to turn with the same maximum multiplier as normal. So, for example if you were using Movement on a Yamaha Rapier that was bringing itself up to speed from rest it would be increase in speed every round by its acceleration, and then also increase in speed by a variable amount times its speed based on how many 2s the spirit could get on its Force Test. So for example, a Force 6 spirit might get five 2s, at which point it would add five times the bike's acceleration each round (meaning that he bike would be accelerating at a total of six times normal) until it achieved its maximum of 1404 kilometers per hour. Really the only difference between Movement in 3rd versus the way it worked in 1st, 2nd, or 4th is that in specifically 3rd edition it was possible to use Movement to accelerate a car which was at rest (though what this actually did was anyone's guess), it was very conceivable that you might get more than ForceX speed increase out of a small vehicle, the rules explicitly allowed you to apply the vehicle's enhanced speed to crash tests (meaning that you could make "car missiles"), and it took several extra minutes to get an oil tanker up to full speed. I understand that many people remember the 3rd edition Movement rules as being somehow "reasonable" - but they weren't. The 3rd edition special rules for Vehicles and Movement closed no loopholes and specifically created a number of additional loopholes which were bullshit. -Frank |
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Aug 14 2007, 04:06 PM
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#16
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...that was not the way it was explained to me when I addressed the issue to the SRIII FAQ. I was told that it only affected the acceleration/deceleration up to/down from the vehicle's actual max move rate and did not increase the maximum speed the vehicle could travel at. |
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Aug 14 2007, 04:06 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
As well as the jet motorcycle that could go mach 3+
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Aug 14 2007, 04:33 PM
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#18
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I can't vouch for what people on the internets say, only what the book says. The only limit on top sped is in the first paragraph where it talks about the general case. The second paragraph simply says that you can continue to use Movement round after round to increase speed. If the Yamaha Rapier in the example isn't limited to 1404 KPH under 3rd edition rules, it's because it isn't limited at all. Really. The 3rd edition Movement rules were both confusing and bad. They were a distinct step backwards as compared to the 2nd edition Movement rules, and 4th edition going back to the 2nhd edition rules is therefore a step forward. -Frank |
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Aug 14 2007, 04:47 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
We just had a thread last week on the use of Movement in space.
One of the keys to remember is that Movement multiplies velocity, *not* accelleration. The other is that it has *no* other effects, so things that should be altered by speed (like inertia), aren't. On top of that, it leads to an inherent contradiction--your van is moving at 10x speed. How do you control it? Well, time dilation says it doesn't seem to be going any faster to *you*. But that would imply that you get extra IPs in which to drive "normally"--but you don't, because that would take Movmement from a seriously powerful ability into the be-all and end-all of all skills. So, it's a puzzle, layered on top of a riddle, stuffed within a paradox. Keep watching this space--we'll have some sort of Movement thread at least once or twice a month. Side thought--shouldn't the major thaumaturgical colleges have classes devoted to magical impacts on physics? If Train A leaves Chicago at 0800 at 80kph and Train B leaves Boston at 1100 at 30kph, but Train B has Movement (Force 4) on it, how many seconds will the engineer on Train A have to jump overboard when he sees Train B bearing down on him? |
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Aug 14 2007, 05:06 PM
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#20
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...ahh but this was direct from the Fanpro Shadowrun "official" website back in '05, not DS or any other forum. This was in response to my concerns of having a team of PC runners driving a VW SuperKombi at near jetliner speeds on a Hungarian highway which just didn't seem right. Be that as it may, I do agree that the SRIII movement rules were a pain particularly with that segmented movement per action pass. I preferred the old SR2 movement mechanic as well (sans magic & spirit assist). |
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Aug 14 2007, 05:07 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
LOL... I'd give you an answer but you didn't specify the length of track between the two cities. |
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Aug 14 2007, 05:34 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Yes. In fact, I've always assumed they did... At least on the effects of magic on the "real world", not necessarily including math problems unless you're hermetic. Shamans, obviously, are typically too high to do the math. "How long before the trains meet?" "Orange." "But... That isn't a time! It's a color!" "No it's not, dude! It's how the time tastes!" |
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Aug 14 2007, 05:41 PM
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#23
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...just watch out for that rock in the road. Hey kids, what time is it? ...it's spatula time! :grinbig: |
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Aug 14 2007, 05:45 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
SPATULA CITY!*
*We've got spatulas--and that's all! |
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Aug 14 2007, 08:39 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 254 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,768 |
My take on it is: it doesn't cause you to disintegrate from the sheer speed, or increase collision damage, but it would make tricky maneuvering more difficult. So don't try it when already doing 120kph on a heavy traffic zone.
On contexts where maneuvering isn't an issue, I wouldn't be surprised if the way suborbitals actually worked is by having a bound elemental propel the thing through Movement. It'd make air travel a lot cheaper, besides being a cool atmospheric bit of setting. |
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