 Levitate Spell, Using it to Fling objects during combat |
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 Jan 2 2008, 08:47 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397  |
Alot, more then that, no... still more. Come on, keep thinking. Ok, now your getting close. Ok, you've got it. Fun fact, bullet fired from an AK 97 has impact energy of 1692.8 J Which as we all know from the fact that getting shot hurts, is quite a bit. Now, the impact energy from this crazy ball thing is 11616 J That is nearly seven times more energy then a bullet. A baseball going 44 m/s is going to hurt (why do you think they wear helmets?) This object hitting you is going to be like taking a cannon shot. As for how much damage you want it to do, well that is entierly up to you. By a realistic standpoint your looking at assult cannon level damage here, but for a game balance standpoint I'd leave it at something like str/2 + 1. Incidently, can you sustain a spell while sleeping? I kind of though unconciousness broke your concentration on the sustained spells. |
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Jan 2 2008, 08:55 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
I would agree about the sustaining part except that he is using his initiation power to sustain it, spending Karma.
Edit: And I have looked forever to find some line which says you break sustaining spells when you sleep if you are using a Focus Item or Initiation power. It would solve a TON of issues for me. Granted I would expect a re-roll if that did turn out to be true. Also he has to still make the attack roll but at 12 force, it won't likely limit his hits. So its listed as (Magic / 2) + DV. I was thinking about having it be around 4 so in this case it would be: (6 / 2) + 3 = 6S plus net hits. It's not game unbalancing really, but he never has to worry about running out of ammo which has happened in some of my games longer fights. |
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Jan 2 2008, 09:56 PM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
wait, he quickened a force 12 levitate?
does he realise that as soon as there is any ward, anywhere, that this is going to complicate things massively? |
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Jan 2 2008, 10:28 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Jaid is right, this guy is going to have serious trouble with wards and such. First off any time his orb passes through a ward it'll alert the person who made it. Second it'll have to make an opposed test against the barrier every single time (though the orb will have 36 dice, so maybe not such a big deal, but against a force 12 barrier (24 dice) there is a chance it'll be disrupted). Third, you should be more then justified in either a. making it impossable to control the orb through the barrier or b. give a -force to his DP.
Speaking of DP what are you having him roll to hit people with this? I'd assume your giving him the standard spellcasting + magic, but that is being very soft on him. Make him use exotic ranged weapon + agility, as that is what this is, an exotic ranged weapon (One of the many disadvantages of using this over the standard fling spell) Overall I think this is alot of work to get a 6S spell at no drain. I mean if he can't do stunbolt at force 6 and handle the.. what 2 drain, it causes, then how did he survive making this sphere. As a bonus, don't forget that since the orb does stun damage, it won't be able to injure drones, walls, or anything else inanimate. But of course he -has- spent 12 karma to create a highly ineffective weapon, so I suppose you can give him some sort of a break. If this was some sort of character concept sort of thing (magneto) then cool, but if this is a power game attempt (which it seems to be) then I say stick it to him. As a final little thing, let me see if I can do a pro/con list here (as compared to stunbolt of force 6, which is basicly what it is) Pro: Doesn't leave magic to be traced down by. Doesn't have drain (Oh no, drain of 2S, please don't hurt me) Can be used from the astral plane (Be very careful about allowing this, as it may be one of the things he is going for, and I don't see why he couldn't do it. Be sure to give him penelties to try and hit people though) Con: Sets off astral alarms all over the place. Can only move 44 meters per IP. Kinda stands out ("Sir... why is there a large metal sphere floating next to you?" and note that it -will- set off metal detectors) Cost him 12 Karma to make Can potinetally be dispelled (not likely, but it could happen.) Can be misplaced and lost forever (Be inventive, a simple door slamming shut could cut his LOS needed to move it. Really, painfully easy to lose this if he isn't very careful.) Can be tracked back to him if somehow lost. Might require an investment in a new skill and attribute to use proplerly (see above about having him use exotic ranged weapon + agility. Just because he is good at magic doesn't mean he is good at making a floating ball hit someone, that is where the actual fling spell comes in.) Did I mention it cost him 12 Karma? I did? Oh, well maybe that is because it cost him 12 freaking Karma! All in all if you've got it set down at 6S for the damage, and follow all this stuff I don't see it being too bad (untill he tries killing people with it from the astral plane). It did cost him 12 Karma, which is a rather large investment (What, two runs or so?), so as long as he doesn't try breaking the game with it, I don't see why you shouldn't allow it. As stated it isn't really any better then casting a force 6 stunbolt. |
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Jan 2 2008, 10:37 PM
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#55
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
You mean Quickening? That flying cannon ball is potentially quite dangerous, but Quickening a Force 12 spell costs 12 points of karma. That's a horrible way to use your hard earned points. Quickening is quite a serious step in that once you've committed the karma, you can't drop and recast the spell. If the mage wants to sneak through a ward for example, that spell will have to be "pushed through," alerting the ward's creator. That spell is also going to glow like a beacon on the Astral plane. But if a PC is willing to blow 12 karma points on a flying ball, they ought to get something in return. Maybe 7P would be a good baseline, but a Complex action to attack with it and a ranged attack roll must be made. 7P is generous in terms of game balance, but realistic in comparison to clubs and other blunt melee weapons. And the target can (and probably will) attempt to dodge whilst Impact Armour should count full. There are worse things a mage with Magic 6 could do with a Complex Action. 7P wont overshadow the Samurai types if they're well-built. But it is good. Range might also be a problem. I went with Physical rather than the Stun in the spell description because I see it as comparable to blunt melee weapons like clubs. Also, Stun can be harder to resist than Physical due to the damage rules. Sneaky, but it's true. But mainly I'm coming from the point of view that the player has spent a significant amount of karma and is clearly enjoying having this, and it's not doing anything a samurai can't do. I'm glad no-one has ever pulled this on me, but I'd probably allow it and see how it went. Hope this helps, -K. |
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Jan 2 2008, 10:54 PM
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#56
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
isn't force twelve magic comparable to a tac nuke in terms of legality, no matter what the spell?
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Jan 2 2008, 11:10 PM
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#57
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Details.... ;)
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Jan 2 2008, 11:44 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,416 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Albuquerque Member No.: 8,334 |
What is this "legality" that you speak of?
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Jan 2 2008, 11:57 PM
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#59
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Traditionally in Shadowrun (although I am not sure if it is mentioned as of yet in SR4), the use, or even mere possession of any type of Magic or Magical apparatus of Force 3 or over is restricted, and licenses are necessary (when they can actually be acquired) for any and all such usage.
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Jan 3 2008, 12:59 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
OK well I think im going to go with:
DV = kg / 3 So basically 4 points for his 12 kg ball. That will give him 7S. Btw, the player figured that his character was very into vintage movies and grew up watching Starwars so much that when he was one of the lucky few to become magical, he would become a Jedi Knight. I already had a huge talk about Light Sabers and got him to drop that atleast. Thanks for the help everyone. As always, this board amazes me with the sheer amount of support and help everyone gives. Maybe someday I will understand SR enough to help others =) Day |
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Jan 3 2008, 01:27 AM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
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Jan 3 2008, 03:51 AM
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#62
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Boo! I purposely avoided checking out that Jedi thread earlier. :(
I couldn't be unhappier if I had been Rick Rolled. ...and you know, if lightsabers are simply going to be a manifestation of magic and the will, wouldn't they have been more accurate referring to the tradition as using the Schwartz? *ducks* |
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Jan 3 2008, 04:47 AM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, the minimum Levitate picks up (Threshold 1) is 200kg. If he's going to be throwing a 12kg ball, he can move a 200kg thing the same speed. (Granted, he isn't going to be carrying a 200kg thing around with him, but if he figures out it'll do DV 66, he might start levitating an invisible 200kg lead weight around everywhere he goes. Or flinging trolls at people.) That's why for big things I like using the Ramming Damage table (SR4, pg160), with the Body of the thing being equal to the Threshold to lift it (1 per 200kg), modified by the speed it travels. For little things, like things that would do damage if you actually threw them, I'd probably go with something like effective STR = (Force/2)+Net Hits. So if you shot a sword at someone with a Force 4 Levitate with three net hits, it'd be as though a STR 5 person was hitting with it. (STR being half force times the net hits mainly to keep Levitate from being a better attack spell than the ones in Combat.) That might still be a little high, but its where I'd start. As for what he's flinging, almost anything worth flinging at someone is listed on pg 149 of the SR4 book, on the Melee Weapons Table under the heading of Sample Improvised Weapons. Chairs, frying pans, metahuman bodies all have listed DVs. |
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Jan 3 2008, 06:59 PM
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#64
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Mercer, I don't know about you, but if you're ruling that body equals the threshold needed to lift something then there's a huge gap in your logic.
Harley-Davidson Scorpion, a chopper. Body of 8. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure there isn't any bikes running around that weigh 800kg... (almost a ton). And you're saying that a lockheed optic-x stealth vtol drone weighs between 200 and 400kg? |
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Jan 3 2008, 07:02 PM
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#65
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
i'd probably say things weigh approximately body x 10 . .
but if you make them too light levitate becomes WAY too powerfull . . Imagine some magician throwing TANKS around O.o |
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Jan 3 2008, 08:07 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
Well I kind of decided that the rules we would use are the Fling rules. Mostly because under levitate it says that objects flung into other objects should use the ranged attack rules (Fling).
So I am not letting him throw anything larger then 12 kg (F in kg) at anyone for the purpose of an attack. But since the spell was sustained, his hits are already determined, thus so is the weight he can lift... right? |
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Jan 3 2008, 08:58 PM
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#67
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Since the spell is sustained the specific object is determined and cannot change without recasting.
You cast Levitate on an object, and you can levitate that object. If you want to switch from the cue ball to the 8 ball you have to recast. |
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Jan 3 2008, 09:16 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Yeah. The weight limit is already set, but he cast it on that one particular object (the orb) so it doesn't matter that he could have lifted 2200 Kg or whatever, he is lifting the 12 Kg orb. Now, this does perhaps mean that if someone where to grab onto the orb and maintain a grip, he could lift them, but that is about it (can't balance a car or something on it.) |
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Jan 3 2008, 09:52 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
body x 10? So a limo would weigh 120kg, or about 264 lbs? A bulldog stepvan would weigh 160kg, i.e. 352 lbs? A mage could levitate nearly any vehicle in the book with a single success (past OR) if you use that conversion! (except for the Ares Dragon - that'd take 2) A better approximation for machines would probably be something like: bikes & drones (body x body + armor) x 2 kg Steel Lynx: 50kg Harley-Davidson Scorpion: 136kg cars, trucks, hovercraft, military & security vehicles (non "light" military vehicles like tanks would probably go in the next category when introduced) (body x body + armor) x 5kg Honda Spirit: 350kg Mitsubishi Nightsky: 770kg GMC Bulldog Step-Van: 1320kg Chrystler-Nissan Patrol-1: 550kg Ares Citymaster: 1380kg boats & subs, winged planes, rotorcraft, vtol/vstol (body x body + armor) x 10kg MT Sea Nymph: 3300kg Cessna C750: 3280kg Ares Dragon: 4920kg GMC Banshee: 4180kg |
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Jan 3 2008, 09:57 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
That still seems on the light side. I mean even small cars are going to be a ton or so, and I thought bikes where supposed to be really heavy. Like more in the 200-300Kg range.
Also, about 4 tons seems absurdly light for a yacht (then again, it is super cheap.) but still, large boats tend to weigh dozens of tons at least. I think your going to have to make a more call by call decision. P.S. When I say ton, I don't mean a metric ton. I mean 2000 lb or about 900 Kg |
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Jan 3 2008, 10:01 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Oh, I agree it's still way too light for many of the vehicles - but once a mage needs more than 15-25 successes to levitate them it's pretty much moot.
edit: and I was trying not to make too many variables ala rigger2 |
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Jan 3 2008, 10:04 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
True, it becomes moot quickly, so the high end stuff like tanks don't really matter that much, but it can be really important for things like bikes, cars, and drones. |
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Jan 3 2008, 10:04 PM
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#73
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
hrm, okay . . somehow my body x 10 seemed plausible for drones an bikes with a body of 5 or something like that . . i owned a motor bike once, they are not THAT heavy . . a Human of not too much strength and body has to be able to lift it if it were to tip over *g*
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Jan 3 2008, 10:09 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
I can't believe I missed that simple fact about levitate and sustaining. :eek:
The player was under the assumption that once you cast the spell, its always in effect and that he could just change targets at will. I never questioned that fact. Thanks for the clarity. |
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Jan 3 2008, 10:16 PM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
No, I was ruling that the Threshold for lifting something could be used as its Body rating for determining damage of Levitated rams. Cars, drones, and people already have Body ratings, so there's no need to calculate them. And they also typically have weights, and there is little if any correlation. (A Body 4 Person isn't going to way the same as a Body 4 car, a Body 6 Troll is going to weigh more than a Body 8 ork, and so on.) What I was advocating was, for the purposes of figuring out how much damage Levitated objects do, using the Threshold to determine a Body rating (which is a base DV) for a ram, and use the Vehicle Ram Table. The reason for this is primarily simplicity. I'm not going to go through and figure out the Body rating of desks, streetlamps, dumpsters, baby carriages (with babies), and anything else that might conceivably be around when someone decides to Darth Vader something at someone. I will already have to eyeball the weight when he casts it (and odds are, the player will be asking for something within a specific range), and Threshold to Body makes a very simple conversion. Since the casting of the spell also determines the velocity, everything is already done for me. The Vehicle Ramming table has a column for speed and a column for "Body" (which is really a base DV), so just by casting the spell I already have a pretty good idea what sort of damage it will do. This puts damage for flung objects fairly low, but for me anyway, that's intentional. Levitate is already an incredibly useful spell, it doesn't have to be that efficient as an attack. To really do some decent damage you're looking at the F12 range of castings, and as has been pointed out, there are easier ways to kill people with a Force 12 spell. |
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