calling out hermit, Rigger vs Pilot Options

[Synner]

Okay, that WAS a great deal of my reasoning. So the reduction of a rigger to nothingness in face of a riggermancer is on purpose, suggesting the rigger become an add-on feature for other character cocnepts, not a concept to stand on it's own feet, yes? I'm kind of curious because I have been told quite often now that a rigger IS suppsoed to be able to stand on his two feet as a concept. I just don't see that when that concept is purposely outclassed by another.

You've shown me nothing that proves a rigger won't stand on his own two feet as a concept. Do the builds and compare. A "riggermancer" is probably the most common type of specialist technomancer out there (because its easier on the points than hacker builds) but his advantage over a rigger has many downsides (some would say too many, enough to make the character unviable as a shadowrunner) and by no means a given or as instant as the advantages granted a rigger (it is at least partially contingent on calling sprites and being able to making proper use of them when necessary).

And 'can be beaten at one skill' doesn't quite compare to 'will be beaten at any matrix relevant skill by another character', nor do I see how this compares to a streetsam versus adept (who'll still be ahead of the adept in many relevant attributes and can boost himself significantly with cyber, almost to adept level). This is more of a rigger/rigger adept comparison thing (which kinda would make sense). Against a mancer, however, it's insta-lose for the rigger. And yes,t hat makes the character obsolete.

What you're missing is the part that technomancers suck outside the Matrix (or you're unaware of just how much they suck). Not only aren't they capable of competing when going manual, but since using drones and vehicles demands Skills besides Matrix Skills few technomancers can afford high ratings in those and still be able to keep their edge in the Matrix.

The street sam vs. cybered adept gunslinger comparison is very appropriate because the cybered adept gunslinger will be faster and have more dice than the street sam specialist in pretty much any combat situation (because he's spent just the right number of points on the "right" magical powers to make him an uber-shooter..

Whether or not TMs are supposed to be rare or not isn't quite relevant in ingame terms.

Not when anyone with 100k can give a technomancer a run for his money and a corp can field 100 riggers for any technomancer out there.

Fact is, they do reduce riggers to MacGuffin characters or Stormtrooper-level soldiers compared to a Luke Skywalker. Kind of a dive from "guy who is actually good at what he does", isn't it?

If you're going to use Starwars metaphors the correct one is that a technomancer rigger is the Emperor (including the fact that he's a decrepit old guy who couldn't swing a lightsaber if he tried) and they reduce riggers to Luke Skywalker levels where everyone else iin the world are stormtrooper-level, except for the odd Hans Solo character (the driver street sam and the adept hacker/rigger) that might show him up once in a while.

[hermit]

When the TM tosses in a sprite and threads up a complex form, the rigger can respond with versatility. The rigger provides forward reconnaissance, fire support, and bolsters his teams matrix defenses. Because a TM uses complex forms, they can't copy IC into their drones, commlinks etc.

Why not? Just because it's nit their kinda stuff doesn't mean it'll work with the drones like usual, and the TM can access via admin account as a normal user would?

Straight out of the box, the two characters will have similar dice-pools. (Both can max out the relevant skills and program/CF ratings). (...) When the TM tosses in a sprite and threads up a complex form, the rigger can respond with versatility.

Please tell me how a Rigger can get a rating 12 program. Yeah, and if that's a control program and the mancer uses it to shove all kinds of drones around, what will the riger do, short of activating hellish ECM? Well, except insta-losing because all these drones come with 8 more dice than he can ever have in anything.

In the example of a TM stealing a rigger's drone, while it's fully plausible, doing that takes all of the TM's focus and concentration. At the same time that a rigger is fending off the attack on this drone, his other drones are still transmitting information across the network and other members of his team can issue commands to the drones. That flexibility is what allows riggers to stand on their own as a concept for me.

What's stopping the TM's other drones (those he stole previously) from attacking the Rigger's drones,a cting on command of the TM's 12 command program (where he'd be issuing commands at over 20 DP)? While he hacks the rigger's commlink and rips him apart?

I'm intrigued by the concept of a techno-mancer covert ops type who infiltrates networks and turns the system against itself or a TM who is the world's best driver and specializes in taking down drone defenses at a corporate target. But the question is what does the TM offer the group when they take a job against a magical target which doesn't use matrix based defenses or drones

The same as a primary rigger - nothing much.

If you're going to use Starwars metaphors the correct one is that a technomancer rigger is the Emperor (including the fact that he's a decrepit old guy who couldn't swing a lightsaber if he tried) and they reduce riggers to Luke Skywalker levels

Now, that's a cute metaphor, though it bears noting how useless Luke was when going against the emperor. Or Vader, for that matter. Luke wasn't good for anything except whining, crying and killing stormtroopers (I am leaving the novels out here, because I heared wild things about slayer Luke in them). Yeah, that's porpably me overstressing that a bit. Silly old me.

A "riggermancer" is probably the most common type of specialist technomancer out there (because its easier on the points than hacker builds) but his advantage over a rigger has many downsides (some would say too many, enough to make the character unviable as a shadowrunner) and by no means a given or instant (it is at least partially contingent on calling sprites and making use of them).

Allright, you're welcome to prove me wrong, but that's surely not in terms of dice pools or Thresholds.

[Jaid]

depending on what you expect your rigger to have, there are areas where the mundane rigger will probably show up the technomancer rigger, synner.

however, those areas are more incidental type things... the rigger will probably drive, shoot, and dodge way better than the rigger can, and with a good variety of vehicles to boot (unless the TM is also trying to be a hacker). but the rigger will be able to fix/mod his own vehicles, probably pick up a few exotic vehicle skills, etc... the TM likely won't.

but definitely, when it comes to combat, the technomancer rigger really does outclass the rigger vastly. no mundane rigger is going to compete with a threading technomancer with high command CF and a few registered sprites. now if we're talking about stamina, the rigger comes in ahead once again... kinda like the TM vs Hacker. sooner or later, that TM is going to run out of sprite services, and when that happens the rigger will become competitive. until then, though, the TM is seriously going to outclass the rigger badly.

there is, however, one exception to that... a rigger operating an anthroform drone and using the special anthroform drone rules could probably compete with a TM rigger. properly twinked, that is. with an effective agility of 15 or something like that, the mundane rigger could probably compete at that point.

that said, i would say that any attempt by a pure technomantic rigger to subvert a drone is probably going to fail, barring extreme amounts of karma coming into the picture. if they've put the BPs into being a good rigger, they probably didn't have the BP to become a good hacker.

[Synner]

At this point the discussion is becoming academic. I'll wait till hermit posts his technomancer builds and a rigger build is posted in response.

[Jaid]

hmmm... normally i'd just edit this into my post, but this thread is moving quick and i don't want it to get lost when people skip over it:

hermit: the command program is *actively* used. the technomancer can no more use command to order a drone around while hacking than a rigger could do the same thing while rigging (actually, both could do it, but the drone would just do nothing while they were hacking and probably get blown up when they aren't paying attention). when you are using the command program, you are remotely controlling the vehicle. you are *not* giving it any orders. think of it like a remote control airplane, and the command program gives you a really awesome remote control. the higher the rating of the command CF, the more crazy stuff the remote can do.

but basically, the important thing to understand is that you don't issue the command "go kill that enemy drone" with the command program... you don't even need the command program for that, in fact. and the drone will have the same amount of dice to try and do whatever it is you tell it to do whether you have 0 command or 50. the only difference is when you take over control of the drone directly without actually jumping in.

so yeah, the TM's drones will not have have dicepools that are so ridiculously crazy. if the TM happens to have a lot of high-rating machine sprites the TM may have slightly better dicepools for his drones (not to mention really hard to spoof/take over) but on the other hand, unless you have a rating 12 or so sprite it won't have all the CFs you likely want it to have anyways (i assume that targeting, maneuver, defense, and clearsight is pretty much the minimum you want for any given drone, personally).

where the problem is mainly is just that the TM is going to have out-of-this-world dicepools when personally controlling a drone, and that's going to make the rigger cry.

[BishopMcQ]

Why not? Just because it's nit their kinda stuff doesn't mean it'll work with the drones like usual, and the TM can access via admin account as a normal user would?

Non-technomancers cannot use complex forms. (Sr4, 233) Additionally, the complex form is a mental algorithm to allow the Technomancer to modify the Matrix. CF /= Program. Just as a TM can't teach a non-TM anything about hacking, their CFs don't function on other people's equipment. Sprites would be used for that, which is a time intensive process.

Please tell me how a Rigger can get a rating 12 program.

The TM doesn't have a rating 12 program out of the box either. That comes with threading as I mentioned.

Yeah, and if that's a control program and the mancer uses it to shove all kinds of drones around, what will the riger do, short of activating hellish ECM? Well, except insta-losing because all these drones come with 8 more dice than he can ever have in anything.

Your own example called for the TM not having any drones, but rather stealing ones from the rigger. Also, a rating 12 command will be useless unless you have subscribed the drone to yourself. To fake the order, you will need to use Spoof.

What's stopping the TM's other drones (those he stole previously) from attacking the Rigger's drones,a cting on command of the TM's 12 command program (where he'd be issuing commands at over 20 DP)? While he hacks the rigger's commlink and rips him apart?

The TM's command pool is separate from the drones' dice pools for their actions. They use their pilot + autosoft ratings. Also, just as the TM can spoof a command, so can the rigger. Note: The spoof test is resisted by the drone's stats, not the TMs.

The same as a primary rigger - nothing much.

Actually, the rigger will still have his drones compared to the TM who didn't have any. The Rigger is not bothered by a dead zone, he brings the signal for his drones with him. He won't be able to contact anything else, but his own stuff is fine.

Hermit, I think you need to take a deep breath an relax a moment. Nothing in my above post was meant to be an attack, but rather drawing similarities and differences between the two archtypes. It is apparent that you do not wish to be proven wrong in this, and I can understand the bulldog nature. But each time someone presents a counter-argument, you cascade away and come back from a different angle.

Please post what you see as a prime technomancer example with 400 BPs and a few ideas on how you would use that character. Then we can post a 400 BP rigger and ideas on how to use it. I think once the numbers are all on the table, everyone involved will be better able to discuss the matter with a concrete understanding of the capabilities that each side has.

[hermit]

Let's, for starters, take the unmaxmised run-of-the-mill technomancer from the core bookwith a few switched skills ... now, this is my first attempt with the TM rules, so it's propably flawed in some way.

B2, Dex2, Rea4, Str2, Cha3, Int5, Log5, Wp3, Res5, Edg2

Skills:
Dodge 3
Ground vehicles (remote operation) 2+2
Airplanes (Remote operation) 2+2
Percepton 2
Computer 4
Software 4

Skill groups:
Cracking 3
Tasking 3

Qualities/Flaws:
Resistance against signal spikes 10
Technomancer 5
Combat Paralysis +20
weak immune system +5

Complex Forms: Analyse 2, Armour 5, Attack 5, Spoof 5, Decrypt 5, Command 5, Sneak 5

Gear and stuff:
Three regged sprites (machine), two with two services, one with three.
Doberman drone w. Ingram WK
Doberman drone w. Ingram WK
Optic-X w. sens 3
10 combat Dragonflies

All drones with response 5 and a level 6 firewall as well as analyse 5 running, on the TM's connections list.

Miss anything?
Edit 1: added computer skill.
Edit 2 and 3: changed CF to legal, added software skill and played with stats a bit.

[Jaid]

Miss anything?

the electronics skill group. or at the very least, computer, which is the skill used for matrix perception.

i can build something later, gotta go for food atm.

[hermit]

Double-post for clarity:

Non-technomancers cannot use complex forms. (Sr4, 233) Additionally, the complex form is a mental algorithm to allow the Technomancer to modify the Matrix. CF /= Program. Just as a TM can't teach a non-TM anything about hacking, their CFs don't function on other people's equipment. Sprites would be used for that, which is a time intensive process.

I know. Just how does that stop them from using ordinary programs as minions?

Your own example called for the TM not having any drones, but rather stealing ones from the rigger. Also, a rating 12 command will be useless unless you have subscribed the drone to yourself. To fake the order, you will need to use Spoof.

Okay, misunderstanding. I said he wouldn't need money for drones on chagen as he can hppily steal whatever drone he sees and likes later in game. Not nescessarily directly rigged drones, but abducting perimeter security drones and whatnot, for ownership and modification.

The TM's command pool is separate from the drones' dice pools for their actions. They use their pilot + autosoft ratings. Also, just as the TM can spoof a command, so can the rigger. Note: The spoof test is resisted by the drone's stats, not the TMs.

He can install the same firewalls any rigger can, and analsyse programs, and to add on that, he can install sprites. Which the rigger cannot.

Hermit, I think you need to take a deep breath an relax a moment. Nothing in my above post was meant to be an attack, but rather drawing similarities and differences between the two archtypes.

Sorry, didn't mean to be harsh or rude or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

I am unclear how you are running Analyze 5 on the drones, unless it is a standard program. If it is a standard program, the TM has no skills to actually use or program it.

[Edit: Sr4, p 233 clearly explains the difference between Hacker and TM skills]

[Tiger Eyes]

You'll need Software in order to thread. Also, you can't have Spoof or Command at 6, you are limited to 5 because of your Resonance of 5. (in game, you can thread those up above 5 but your fading will be physical).

[hermit]

I am unclear how you are running Analyze 5 on the drones, unless it is a standard program. If it is a standard program, the TM has no skills to actually use or program it.

It just runs, the TM buys and installs it like any user would. I see no problem there.

(in game, you can thread those up above 5 but your fading will be physical).

Sure? It said double Response was the max safe rating fpor threading in my book, and other examples hinted at that too?

[Whipstitch]

I'll post my Rigger player's build shortly, once I can dig it up.

[Tiger Eyes]

Sure? It said double Response was the max safe rating fpor threading in my book, and other examples hinted at that too?

SR4, pg 237: "For Threading, the Fading DV equals the hits used for rating points. If the rating of the threaded complex form exceeds the technomancer's Resonance, the damage is Physical rather than Stun."

Which makes Threading valuable, but difficult to do to high levels. Also, you resist fading with Willpower + Resonance, so you'll have 8 dice to resist. Threading from a 5 to 8 would get you on average 1 box of physical (not much, true, but it adds up... :/ )

[Jaid]

the TM archetype from the book is terrible. TMs either need to be optimised, or not made at all.

think i have an old TM rigger archetype kicking around somewhere... i'll see if i can dig it up.

[hermit]

My bad. Though 1P is acceptable for +3 DP (and a sprite service to uphold the CF).

That'd be good, I guess. And a 400 BP rigger for comparison would be nice too. The drone dwarf from the core book makes little sense, if you ask me, as he doesn't even firewall or ice his drones.

[Synner]

Not to quibble but where is that Combat Paralysis coming from?

Could you please post BP costs for the relevant mods to each drone? Note - for the purpose of this experiment, I'm sure no one has problems with assuming your registered sprites were acquired after chargen.

It just runs, the TM buys and installs it like any user would. I see no problem there.

Programs in SR4 have to be actively run by a user (be it a hacker, TM, agent or IC). They don't run on their own, they don't do anything on their own. Technomancer complex forms more so, since they're brought into existence by the technomancer's mind.

Sure? It said double Response was the max safe rating fpor threading in my book, and other examples hinted at that too?

See Tiger's quote from the book.

[WearzManySkins]

SR4, pg 237: "For Threading, the Fading DV equals the hits used for rating points. If the rating of the threaded complex form exceeds the technomancer's Resonance, the damage is Physical rather than Stun."

Which makes Threading valuable, but difficult to do to high levels. Also, you resist fading with Willpower + Resonance, so you'll have 8 dice to resist. Threading from a 5 to 8 would get you on average 1 box of physical (not much, true, but it adds up... :/ )

Yes but in a different thread, with a First Aide Kit rating 6, a Sprite, the TM can just use "mundane medical practice/skills" to keep on being the Uber Threading Energizer Bunny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[hermit]

Not to quibble but where is that Combat Paralysis coming from?

The core book.

Programs in SR4 have to be actively run by a user (be it a hacker, an agent or IC). They don't run on their own, they don't do anything on their own. Technomancer complex forms more so, since they're brought into existence by the technomancer's mind.

Yes. It'd run on the Drone Pilot. The Tm could still command the Pilot around, couldn't he?

See Tiger's quote from the book.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough about it, but I thought I already said that I'd been wrong there.

[Tiger Eyes]

I'm very interested to see how threading helps the rigger. I use it all the time with my hacker TM, but I'm generally focused on one action at a time (Exploit or Browse or Analyze...) so no penalties. Sprites can sustain a threaded form for Rating x Combat Turn x Services owed. So for a level 5 sprite (darn hard to register unless you specialize in registering, like I did) you get 5 combat turns per service... 15 seconds... Great for hacking (although I prefer to use them to boost my CF rating straight up) but how does that play out in a Drone/Rigging situation, where time frames might last longer?

Note: I've done no rigging or drone stuff with my TM; I'm watching this thread with great interest hoping to learn some tricks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Jaid]

ok, here's a mockup TM rigger. it's quick and dirty, but i think it's got most of the bases covered. this character relies heavily on sprites for purposes other than just controlling drones, so will likely have to invest in a couple of fault sprites (we'll just assume that there will be an errata to make fault sprites have analyse... Synner, there is such an errata in the works, i hope? and if not, *why*?)

anyways, i didn't go into a gear breakdown, but it should probably include a rating 4 agent/IC and some good programs (at least all the standard use programs, and probably armor and attack... others not so critical)

for the sake of discussion, can we suppose a couple of rating 5 machine sprites registered with 4 services each, and 1 rating 4 fault sprite with 3 services? this TM specialises in compiling and registering, and it's free, so more would probably even not be unreasonable, but just for the sake of discussion =P

=================

Race: Human

Attributes (150 + 65 resonance = 215):
B 1
S 1
A 1
R 1
C 5
I 4
L 4
W 5

Ess: 6
Edg: 2
Res: 6

Qualities: (-20)
Technomancer: (5)
Codeslinger(Control Device)(10)
Allergy(Sunlight, moderate) (-10)
Sensitive System (-15)
SINner(criminal) (-10)

Skills (144):

Compiling 5 (machine +2)
Registering 5 (machine +2)
Electronic Warfare 1 (communications +2)
Hacking 1 (spoof +2)
Computer 1 (analyze +2)
Software 4 (threading +2)
Dodge 3 (ranged +2)
Pilot Groundcraft 4 (remote operation +2)
Pilot Aircraft 4 (remote operation +2)
Pilot Anthroform 4 (remote operation +2)
Gunnery 4 (ballistic +2)

Complex Forms (30 BP):
Analyze 6
ECCM 6
Command 6
Spoof 6
Stealth 6
Biofeedback Filter 5

Contacts(5 BP)
Fixer C3/L2

Resources (26 BP)
(this would take me forever: i'm not going into specifics. suffice to say, he has a non-trivial amount of gear invested into drones and such).

==================

(you will no doubt notice that this character is pretty much completely useless outside of being a TM rigger.... this could be slightly mitigated by cutting resonance to 5 and all CFs, freeing up a whopping 30 BP for meatworld attributes/skills. yippee. you could also cut back some more on his mental attributes, but those are also his matrix attributes, which are kinda important...)

[hermit]

The idea would be a fast, hard strike with superior skill. Thread up the command program as much as possible and use a sprite to further boost forther, have the drones, possibly two supported by machine sprites that analyse them or something, attack the same target at once and kill it. The focus would be the rigger's combat drone, or the rigger's van with the rigger inside, if possible to find.

[Tiger Eyes]

@ Jaid

Why not make the sprites rating 6? With Resonance 6, you can safely summon and compile them.

[BishopMcQ]

Hermit--I don't think we made it clear earlier, you only use Command when remotely controlling something and even then only for specific tasks. (Driving through an obstacle course would be Command + Pilot: Ground Craft) If you are trying to subvert or take command of a drone, that's a different CF.

Can you layout for me in actual actions, what you want to do? Describe them as physical actions more than die rolls. This way we can see how the course of events is flowing in your mind and we can break down step by step, the various actions required for everything.

An example would be:
I'm controlling the Steel Lynx remotely. It climbs out of the van and runs toward the security guards. While it runs, I order the sprites to crash the the guards' commlinks so they can't call for help. Once the lynx has closed to 50m, I stop it and open fire, full burst spraying wide to keep the guard from dodging.

[Ryu]

Two pages while I GM one session? Lets see if I can catch up.

Support matrix operation (command) can give you a +5 DP, drainless threading gives another +2. That very nice, if expensive.

The rigger cannot compensate for the rating 12 command program, so he has to jump-in to make a difference. That gives a +2 from the vehicle control rig,

After chargen, the rigger starts to make response 6 chips. The TM can do it, too, but does not gain one die from that. Net disadvantage -4. In compensation, he receives the ability to command his drone network simultaneously, and might spend 65k¥ to have 4 IP. The real equilizer is that the rigger spends way less BP on the matrix, and therefore has way higher rigging skills, even while spending 50 BP on ressources. Response 5 + skill 4 + specialisation + vehicle control rig is 13 dice, you are not better without skill.

On network defense: Use IC set up to "attack any user but me". Your drones are rating 6 nodes, should be sufficient for 2 IC programs in "user-controlled" mode. Yepp, the TM will always come in. No, it won´t be pretty.



Let me use this occasion to express how displeased I am with Command not being a function of the controlled node. I see and we use it as an aspect of the controlled nodes OS, which does kill Command as a CF except for silly purposes, and Support Operation (Command), too. I would be very pleased to hear that I´m wrong and that what we are doing is not a houserule.