House rules for int passes, Trying to get a little bit more realism Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[BRodda]

I'm trying to make the combat order a little more realistic and balanced. It doesn't make sense that someone with Wired 3 and the 1 pass guard both get to attack in the first round. Here is my modified order chart.


VR Passes (ALL)
Combat Pass 5
Combat Pass 4
Combat Pass 1
Combat Pass 3
Combat Pass 2


Yes it does mean that Wired Reflexes has the advantage of attacking well before the unwired guys, but it feels more right.

Anyone try something like this?

[Angier]

Uhm... how many times does someone need to clarify the rules for initiative on this boards?

The initiative itself is how FAST you RESPOND in combat.
The initiative passes are the amount of time you actually need to act out your responses

There is no need to alter the initiative passes but rather to alter the initative itself. THIS determines when to act in a round, not initiative passes.

[tete]

There is no need to alter the initiative passes but rather to alter the initative itself. THIS determines when to act in a round, not initiative passes.

There might be for some people who want the razorguy to be able to do stuff he could in 1e, 2e, & novels. 3e drastically changed the power of the almighty wired 3 guy because a rather large percentage of people were tired of combat being over before they got to draw a pistol.

VR Passes (ALL)
Combat Pass 5
Combat Pass 4
Combat Pass 1
Combat Pass 3
Combat Pass 2

I think your initiative pass system looks fine if thats the style of play you want. It looks very similar to SLA Industries which I personally feel has the best multi-pass initiative system out there.

SLAs System
1 pass = go on round 3
2 pass = go on round 2 & 4
3 pass = go on round 1, 3, & 5
4 pass = go on round 1, 2, 4, & 5
5 pass = go on all rounds

[ArkonC]

This topic has been discussed a lot in a lot of threads, you might want to search for those and see what other people have done with it...
Personally, the best solution I've played with was to let the extra IPs go on init -5...
So Sammy the Sam with 3 IPs and an init of 13 rolls and gets 5 successes and acts on 18 (1st IP), 13 (2nd IP) and 8 (3rd IP), Gammy the Ganger with 1 IP and an init of 6 rolls and get 3 successes, he acts on 9, before Sammy's 3rd action, but after his first 2...
The only tweaking to do would be to make it -4 or -6, but that would be up to the hopes and dreams of the group...

[Jhaiisiin]

The old way of doing initiative in SR was sometimes hard to keep track of (the whole take your initiative and keep subtracting 10 until you get 0 or below). However, I did prefer it when reflex-enhanced people moved before non-reflex enhanced. It made perfect sense to have a guy chipped up to wired-3 being able to dart around really quick before the unenhanced (by ware or spell) mage could get off a spell.

SR4 completely reversed that, making it so everyone goes in the first pass, and enhanced people go with more passes afterwards. Doesn't make much sense to me, but thems the breaks.

[BRodda]

Uhm... how many times does someone need to clarify the rules for initiative on this boards?

The initiative itself is how FAST you RESPOND in combat.
The initiative passes are the amount of time you actually need to act out your responses

There is no need to alter the initiative passes but rather to alter the initative itself. THIS determines when to act in a round, not initiative passes.

Ok now your confusing me, so example time. I'm using the rules from page 132 BBB.

I have 2 Shadowrunners and 5 Sec Guards. Runner A has no cyber/bio/magic. Runner B has wired reflexes 3. All the sec guards have wired reflexes 2.

I'll assume that the runners get a higher initiative then all the guards. Order is Runner A, Runner B, Guard 2, Guard 1, Guard 3, Guard 4 and Guard 5. I'll assume a runner kills a guard each time they shoot and each guard does 50% to each runner and miss 50% of the time.

Per the rules
1st Init Pass
Runner A goes and kills a guard.
Runner B goes and kills a guard.
Guards 2, 3 and 4 shoot and kill Runner B because they were warned he was the faster of the 2 (statistically he might be alive but very badly wounded).

2nd Init Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Guards 2, 3 and 4 shoot so much lead over the next 2 passes that Runner A dies.

By My House Rules: Same group
5th Init Pass
No one has an action.

4th Init Pass
Runner B guns down a guard.

1st Init Pass
Runner A kills another guard.
Runner B kills a guard.
Guard 2 shoots at Runner B and wounds.
Guard 4 shoots at Runner B and misses.

3rd Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Runner B kills anointer guard
Guard 2 shoots at Runner B and hits tacking him down.

2nd Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Guard 2 shoots player A and wounds.

Next Round
You get the idea. It's more cinematic and less "I don't care how fast you move the 4 guards just mow you down."

[Jhaiisiin]

Ummm... wait, so you're completely rearranging initiative passes? Not to mention there is no 5th pass in SR4, that's a bit confusing.

[BRodda]

Ummm... wait, so you're completely rearranging initiative passes? Not to mention there is no 5th pass in SR4, that's a bit confusing.

Basically yes I am rearranging the order. And I wasn't sure if it was impossible or just very unlikely to get a 5th pass. I put it there just in case I decided have an NPC with it.

[Eryk the Red]

As of Unwired, there is a 5th pass, and the only ways to get it are for matrix VR.

[Jhaiisiin]

Aroo? Guess it's time to check out Unwired then. (never any hackers or technomancers of any kind in our games, so never needed the book)

[evanger]

Basically yes I am rearranging the order. And I wasn't sure if it was impossible or just very unlikely to get a 5th pass. I put it there just in case I decided have an NPC with it.

I was just thinking of this exact format the other day.

I agree that wired people should start acting sooner AND keep acting longer, not just pile up "free, unopposed moves" at the end of the combat round.

[Skip]

It depends on how you think of wired reflexes. I liked the 1e method, but made some consessions to 3e when it came out. My take on it was that the trigger on wired was variable, so wired 3 was in "off" position normally, set to wired 1 during normal run conditions, which made you easier to detect but gave you one pass prior to any non-wired characters or NPCs, and wired 3 only during combat.

This meant that in a normal combat setting the wired characters got one pass at each other before the normals got thier action, unless they had warning in which case the surprised group lost thier turn. I also made anyone coming into an ongoing engagement lose thier turn. That way the combat monsters got to be combat monsters, but the other team members felt like they participated.

Whether you let the wired folk go first or last only matters for the first turn. Granted, many SR gun fights only last 3, but it was a work-out that was fine for my group at the tiem.

The hardest nut for shadowrun to deal with from the start was how to let the game be a true group effort as opposed to several seperate games with one or two team members involved (The face did the deal, the decker/hacker did the e-recon and readied the local net for capture, the mage did the etheral recon, the sniper/adept did the physical recon, the rigger did the driving, the sammie did the ninja stuff, buffed by the mage.) Fourth edition looks to remedy that, but people will always disagree about the methodology

[DireRadiant]

Per the rules
1st Init Pass
Runner A goes and kills a guard.
Runner B goes and kills a guard.
Guards 2, 3 and 4 shoot and kill Runner B because they were warned he was the faster of the 2 (statistically he might be alive but very badly wounded).

2nd Init Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Guards 2, 3 and 4 shoot so much lead over the next 2 passes that Runner A dies.

My analysis is that Runner A deserves to die for choosing to stand around shooting guards instead of taking cover. Nothing to do with initiative system.

[DTFarstar]

I typically run with a 4,1,3,2 order myself.

No one has had the 5th pass yet, so I haven't had to deal with it. I've been doing it this way for quite awhile now and it works very well.

Chris

[Jhaiisiin]

After mentioning this to my best friend and fellow player, he managed to convince me about how nice this could be. If I ran it though, I'd do it as 5, 4, 1, 2, 3. That way normals are right in the middle, it also nicely frames th lower IP characters (PC or NPC) by letting the fastest go both first and last. Seems more logical to me.

[Blog]

I'll stick with 1 2 3 4 5. If its 2 runners and that many guards taking cover should be a priority.

[jago668]

I'm of two minds on it. One, it makes more sense to me for the juiced up people to be going first. However the 4th edition way lets me make a guy without wire/bio and still at least get to do something. Since the older editions, combat would be over before such a character went. I didn't really play much with 3rd edition, maybe a game or two. So I can't remember how it deviated if any from the other editions.

[Voran]

I guess I've felt that the benefit of having multiple passes, even if you roll poorly for init, is that you can decide yeah, this first round of passes, I'm going full defense, ha ha!

Also, I figured that the more juiced people would tend to go first cause they also have reaction mods that influence their initiative, but they're not perfect, they're not omniscient of their surroundings and can still theoretically be caught flat flooted. I'm not sure how balanced it is by giving the guys with extra passes in essence auto-win-initiative as well.

[Jhaiisiin]

They're faster than humanly possible due to cyberware. You *can't* balance that against a normal, unaugmented person. Those with the wires will move faster, more often and more effectively than those without. It's that simple.

[psychophipps]

Yeah, my group ran into the "Extra IP = FTW" as well. We had a discussion about it a while back here as my group tried to fix it. A new rules-oriented player being swapped in for two other players we had pretty much tossed that idea so we're back to RAW in this regard.

Are Exra IPs broken? Yes, unless you counter them with extra IPs yourself via magic or cyber.
Is there an easy to fix it that will keep everyone happy one way or another? Two words..."Fuck" and "No".

Life sucks. Wear a hat.

[VagabondStar]

Makes "Geek the Mage" a bit easier, doesn't it?

[psychophipps]

Makes "Geek the Mage" a bit easier, doesn't it?

Not really. Most of our PC mages just buy a "Always extra IP focus" at creation and go full-defense on IP one if they don't get initiative. Then they go to town one or two extra times and it's usually a done deal via a Force 5 stunbolt or two and plenty of extra successes.

Stunbolt, it's what's for dinner!

[VagabondStar]

Fine and dandy. And I mean no offense when I say this, but we aren't really talking about your group here.

Is it realistic to think that every NPC mage in a hostile encounter will have something magical giving him extra passes? Well, maybe. Who knows? But foci are not as reliable as cyberware, and a mage suddenly without would be unable to issue a spell or go full defense before the WR3 Troll rams his Panther Assault Cannon up his hoop.


But I do like the idea, in theory.

Playability wise... eh. I think you may engender a lot of complaints.

[psychophipps]

Fine and dandy. And I mean no offense when I say this, but we aren't really talking about your group here.

Is it realistic to think that every NPC mage in a hostile encounter will have something magical giving him extra passes? Well, maybe. Who knows? But foci are not as reliable as cyberware, and a mage suddenly without would be unable to issue a spell or go full defense before the WR3 Troll rams his Panther Assault Cannon up his hoop.


But I do like the idea, in theory.

Playability wise... eh. I think you may engender a lot of complaints.

Hey, I agree completely. In a perfect world the extra IP wouldn't be so buck wild, but this is RAW so there you have it. Once you do a few "One pass pansy" characters and/or NPCs and start to see everyone who has the IPs tearing the ass out of the world while your slow-poke characters occasionally toss in a plink or two, well, do the math...
This is also why my group doesn't go for the heavy-duty stuff that seems to be really common with the board here. Can you imagine 6 shots per round from a Panther without having to toss tanks and other ridiculous shit at the PCs? We tear up the countryside enough with our "big guns" being semi-auto shotguns and the occasional AR. We don't have to add to a carnage with the mil-spec shit, thanks.

[Ryu]

Does this rule change anything but the number of guards I have to run, and the associated risk for my players should they FAIL to take out the opposition?

Balance can IMO not be achieved if some people get to act multiple time before others. The unaugmented guards I run can somehow not even remotely reach the 50/50 on hit/miss. The FRT tacnet fares *slightly* better, but comes with multiple IPs on it´s own.