I'm trying to make the combat order a little more realistic and balanced. It doesn't make sense that someone with Wired 3 and the 1 pass guard both get to attack in the first round. Here is my modified order chart.


VR Passes (ALL)
Combat Pass 5
Combat Pass 4
Combat Pass 1
Combat Pass 3
Combat Pass 2


Yes it does mean that Wired Reflexes has the advantage of attacking well before the unwired guys, but it feels more right.

Anyone try something like this?

Uhm... how many times does someone need to clarify the rules for initiative on this boards?

The initiative itself is how FAST you RESPOND in combat.
The initiative passes are the amount of time you actually need to act out your responses

There is no need to alter the initiative passes but rather to alter the initative itself. THIS determines when to act in a round, not initiative passes.

There might be for some people who want the razorguy to be able to do stuff he could in 1e, 2e, & novels. 3e drastically changed the power of the almighty wired 3 guy because a rather large percentage of people were tired of combat being over before they got to draw a pistol.


I think your initiative pass system looks fine if thats the style of play you want. It looks very similar to SLA Industries which I personally feel has the best multi-pass initiative system out there.

SLAs System
1 pass = go on round 3
2 pass = go on round 2 & 4
3 pass = go on round 1, 3, & 5
4 pass = go on round 1, 2, 4, & 5
5 pass = go on all rounds

This topic has been discussed a lot in a lot of threads, you might want to search for those and see what other people have done with it...
Personally, the best solution I've played with was to let the extra IPs go on init -5...
So Sammy the Sam with 3 IPs and an init of 13 rolls and gets 5 successes and acts on 18 (1st IP), 13 (2nd IP) and 8 (3rd IP), Gammy the Ganger with 1 IP and an init of 6 rolls and get 3 successes, he acts on 9, before Sammy's 3rd action, but after his first 2...
The only tweaking to do would be to make it -4 or -6, but that would be up to the hopes and dreams of the group...

The old way of doing initiative in SR was sometimes hard to keep track of (the whole take your initiative and keep subtracting 10 until you get 0 or below). However, I did prefer it when reflex-enhanced people moved before non-reflex enhanced. It made perfect sense to have a guy chipped up to wired-3 being able to dart around really quick before the unenhanced (by ware or spell) mage could get off a spell.

SR4 completely reversed that, making it so everyone goes in the first pass, and enhanced people go with more passes afterwards. Doesn't make much sense to me, but thems the breaks.

Ok now your confusing me, so example time. I'm using the rules from page 132 BBB.

I have 2 Shadowrunners and 5 Sec Guards. Runner A has no cyber/bio/magic. Runner B has wired reflexes 3. All the sec guards have wired reflexes 2.

I'll assume that the runners get a higher initiative then all the guards. Order is Runner A, Runner B, Guard 2, Guard 1, Guard 3, Guard 4 and Guard 5. I'll assume a runner kills a guard each time they shoot and each guard does 50% to each runner and miss 50% of the time.

Per the rules
1st Init Pass
Runner A goes and kills a guard.
Runner B goes and kills a guard.
Guards 2, 3 and 4 shoot and kill Runner B because they were warned he was the faster of the 2 (statistically he might be alive but very badly wounded).

2nd Init Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Guards 2, 3 and 4 shoot so much lead over the next 2 passes that Runner A dies.

By My House Rules: Same group
5th Init Pass
No one has an action.

4th Init Pass
Runner B guns down a guard.

1st Init Pass
Runner A kills another guard.
Runner B kills a guard.
Guard 2 shoots at Runner B and wounds.
Guard 4 shoots at Runner B and misses.

3rd Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Runner B kills anointer guard
Guard 2 shoots at Runner B and hits tacking him down.

2nd Pass
Runner A has no passes.
Guard 2 shoots player A and wounds.

Next Round
You get the idea. It's more cinematic and less "I don't care how fast you move the 4 guards just mow you down."

Ummm... wait, so you're completely rearranging initiative passes? Not to mention there is no 5th pass in SR4, that's a bit confusing.

Basically yes I am rearranging the order. And I wasn't sure if it was impossible or just very unlikely to get a 5th pass. I put it there just in case I decided have an NPC with it.

As of Unwired, there is a 5th pass, and the only ways to get it are for matrix VR.

Aroo? Guess it's time to check out Unwired then. (never any hackers or technomancers of any kind in our games, so never needed the book)

I was just thinking of this exact format the other day.

I agree that wired people should start acting sooner AND keep acting longer, not just pile up "free, unopposed moves" at the end of the combat round.

It depends on how you think of wired reflexes. I liked the 1e method, but made some consessions to 3e when it came out. My take on it was that the trigger on wired was variable, so wired 3 was in "off" position normally, set to wired 1 during normal run conditions, which made you easier to detect but gave you one pass prior to any non-wired characters or NPCs, and wired 3 only during combat.

This meant that in a normal combat setting the wired characters got one pass at each other before the normals got thier action, unless they had warning in which case the surprised group lost thier turn. I also made anyone coming into an ongoing engagement lose thier turn. That way the combat monsters got to be combat monsters, but the other team members felt like they participated.

Whether you let the wired folk go first or last only matters for the first turn. Granted, many SR gun fights only last 3, but it was a work-out that was fine for my group at the tiem.

The hardest nut for shadowrun to deal with from the start was how to let the game be a true group effort as opposed to several seperate games with one or two team members involved (The face did the deal, the decker/hacker did the e-recon and readied the local net for capture, the mage did the etheral recon, the sniper/adept did the physical recon, the rigger did the driving, the sammie did the ninja stuff, buffed by the mage.) Fourth edition looks to remedy that, but people will always disagree about the methodology

My analysis is that Runner A deserves to die for choosing to stand around shooting guards instead of taking cover. Nothing to do with initiative system.

I typically run with a 4,1,3,2 order myself.

No one has had the 5th pass yet, so I haven't had to deal with it. I've been doing it this way for quite awhile now and it works very well.

Chris

After mentioning this to my best friend and fellow player, he managed to convince me about how nice this could be. If I ran it though, I'd do it as 5, 4, 1, 2, 3. That way normals are right in the middle, it also nicely frames th lower IP characters (PC or NPC) by letting the fastest go both first and last. Seems more logical to me.

I'll stick with 1 2 3 4 5. If its 2 runners and that many guards taking cover should be a priority.

I'm of two minds on it. One, it makes more sense to me for the juiced up people to be going first. However the 4th edition way lets me make a guy without wire/bio and still at least get to do something. Since the older editions, combat would be over before such a character went. I didn't really play much with 3rd edition, maybe a game or two. So I can't remember how it deviated if any from the other editions.

I guess I've felt that the benefit of having multiple passes, even if you roll poorly for init, is that you can decide yeah, this first round of passes, I'm going full defense, ha ha!

Also, I figured that the more juiced people would tend to go first cause they also have reaction mods that influence their initiative, but they're not perfect, they're not omniscient of their surroundings and can still theoretically be caught flat flooted. I'm not sure how balanced it is by giving the guys with extra passes in essence auto-win-initiative as well.

They're faster than humanly possible due to cyberware. You *can't* balance that against a normal, unaugmented person. Those with the wires will move faster, more often and more effectively than those without. It's that simple.

Yeah, my group ran into the "Extra IP = FTW" as well. We had a discussion about it a while back here as my group tried to fix it. A new rules-oriented player being swapped in for two other players we had pretty much tossed that idea so we're back to RAW in this regard.

Are Exra IPs broken? Yes, unless you counter them with extra IPs yourself via magic or cyber.
Is there an easy to fix it that will keep everyone happy one way or another? Two words..."Fuck" and "No".

Life sucks. Wear a hat.

Makes "Geek the Mage" a bit easier, doesn't it?

Not really. Most of our PC mages just buy a "Always extra IP focus" at creation and go full-defense on IP one if they don't get initiative. Then they go to town one or two extra times and it's usually a done deal via a Force 5 stunbolt or two and plenty of extra successes.

Stunbolt, it's what's for dinner!

Fine and dandy. And I mean no offense when I say this, but we aren't really talking about your group here.

Is it realistic to think that every NPC mage in a hostile encounter will have something magical giving him extra passes? Well, maybe. Who knows? But foci are not as reliable as cyberware, and a mage suddenly without would be unable to issue a spell or go full defense before the WR3 Troll rams his Panther Assault Cannon up his hoop.


But I do like the idea, in theory.

Playability wise... eh. I think you may engender a lot of complaints.

Hey, I agree completely. In a perfect world the extra IP wouldn't be so buck wild, but this is RAW so there you have it. Once you do a few "One pass pansy" characters and/or NPCs and start to see everyone who has the IPs tearing the ass out of the world while your slow-poke characters occasionally toss in a plink or two, well, do the math...
This is also why my group doesn't go for the heavy-duty stuff that seems to be really common with the board here. Can you imagine 6 shots per round from a Panther without having to toss tanks and other ridiculous shit at the PCs? We tear up the countryside enough with our "big guns" being semi-auto shotguns and the occasional AR. We don't have to add to a carnage with the mil-spec shit, thanks.

Does this rule change anything but the number of guards I have to run, and the associated risk for my players should they FAIL to take out the opposition?

Balance can IMO not be achieved if some people get to act multiple time before others. The unaugmented guards I run can somehow not even remotely reach the 50/50 on hit/miss. The FRT tacnet fares *slightly* better, but comes with multiple IPs on it´s own.

I'm thinking of doing this, but has anyone ran it?
Pros, cons?
Seems simpler, no? Does it empower, or disadvantage, anyone?
Just looking for opinions; my next game is Saturday, I might implement this.

SR2 did it with -10, you got to act again as long as the value was larger than zero.

It is more complicated to track because your initiative value does change all the time. But one can cope.

Houserules on this will only change the unaugmented vs. augmented (tech or magic) balance. I personally do not think that the augmented need any more help.

Harder to track? I dunno, the way I have my "Combat scratch pad", it would in fact be just as easy to track, have the SR2 retro feel, and would balance out play. Sure, the augmented still have an edge (and rightly so), but it's not some Marvel comic anymore.

I'm running it this weekend.

Most excellent! Please keep us posted as to how it goes.

This is the other issue I've run into. If you have competent first-run characters with multiple IPs (which also add to Reaction, and thus, Initiative) then they can easily take two-to-one odds, especially if you're not a completely vicious bastard of the GM. Extra IP are pretty good with melee but it really shines once you start tossing in firearms, even more so if those guns are AR+ in power, with recoil comp of some sort. Then your PCs can really tear the ass out of just about anything you toss at them short of, well, NPCs just like them or those with ridiculous amounts of cash.

I prefer street-level games with plenty of legwork and RPing vs. the mil-spec rape/pillage/burn (well, that's how I see it but I'm an overbearing, opinionated wanker™) a lot of other gamers seem to enjoy. My players and I get a much bigger kick out of RPing a situation to our way of thinking without rolling dice at all if we can help it. If the NPC needs the stick instead of the carrot? Well, let's just say that we're a lot like Teddy Roosevelt in that regard.

I largely find it to be a power creep issue and it's, in all honesty, the main reason why I kept away from SR for all those years. I simply got tired of spending all my time as a GM worrying about what uber-gearz/magic the PCs had and how to counter it to make any combats interesting rather than focusing on the most important part of the game...The Story.

Kudos big-time to those of you who manage to keep the juggling act going better than I can!

Yes, but people who rip out their nervous system and replace it with 'ware, and who have 5-6 points of RC (unhead of in my games, btw, even the PC with 3 IP's in my campaign is barely shooting by the 2nd or 3rd Pass due to recoil), SHOULD be able to hose down a bunch of Guards. And the Guard who is braced and equipped with good recoil compensation and who has more IPs can do the same to the PCs.

If GM's stopped giving away 6RC Assault Rifles and Stats of 6-7 like candy, it wouldn't be much an issue.

I really have no problem with the PC going first, I mean either way you do it, one side usually has the jump on the other and that usually is the difference between attack and retreat for the games I used to play and run. I don't prefer the street level games, but I do like a more realistic level of play. That generally means that if guns are fired during a run by anyone (except for silenced handguns) or major magical damage is dealt; the runners should expect a responce team that will kill them all dead in a short time, so it is time to get out and finish the run. One should also note that interior walls are not much of a hinderence to a large troll looking to leave quickly.

What the group I play with does is a little something like this....

We divide the amount of movement by 4, so someone moveing 20 meters in a round only moves 5 meters each IP. On every IP a character or NPC has an action they can change thier point of destination, on the IP in which said character or NPC has no action they still move along towards thier last declared destionation.

For example the Guard with only 1 IP declares his destionation on his first and only IP in the round, and on every IP after that he continues to move towards that destionation unable to alter course. This helps people with multiple IPs avoid combat hazards like walking into grenade blasts and what not, while the people with few IPs are more subject to area hazards that have appeared since they last acted.


In addition to that we sort of shuffled around when people act according to thier amount of IP available to them.


People with 1 IP act on the first IP and that is the only IP they act in.

People with 2 IP's act only on the first IP and third IP of the round.

People with 3 IP's act on the first three IP's of the round.

People with 4 IP's act on every IP of the round.

Between the movement house rule mentioned above and the shuffling of when you can act according to the amount of IP's you have we have found that people with more IP's tend to be more capable react to split second changes in the combat enviroment and situation while people with fewer IP's tend to be less reactionary to split second changes that take place over the course of a combat round.

People with 1 IP still get to act at the begining of the round according to thier initive roll just like everyone else, if they were first to act on the 4th IP instead of the First, people with 1 IP would really ever survive to take an action at all.

People with 2 IP's are going to be acting on the First and Third IP of the round which spreads thier actions out over the combat round and gives them the opertunity to react to things that may have happened during that Second IP, this keeps players with 2 IP's from just sort of sitting around bored and waiting for 2 IP's to pass before they can act again.

People with 3 IP's act on the first 3 IP's which shows that they are faster then the 2 IP people and the only IP they are not acting in is the 4th IP which is reserved for the 4 IP people.


This system has worked well for makeing combat rounds more interesting for all involved regardless of the amount of IP's available to thier character with out actually makeing high IP characters or NPC's more powerful then they already are.

I´ve told my players that two physical IPs are sufficient, and that only mages on the astral and riggers/hackers can have more IPs (due to mechanics). Our group expects specialist dicepools of 10-14 dice. Certainly enough to gain victory over numerical superior unaugmented guards, but not enough to make it a cakewalk. Guard tactics are at that point a question of taking cover and calling in reinforcments, while the players goal is to achieve the objective before said reinforcements arive.

Players of high-powered chars can often just tell me something like "I stab the guard from behind", and I go "Ok. What do you do with the body." If success is a given, why roll the dice? Combat does not have to be a challenge. If you focus on making combat a challenge, your players will look into getting better at it. So as long as their target is not a combatant, let them rule. Barroom brawls are RP occasions, not deadly dangers.