Security: Licenses and SINs, A branciation from a Behind the Shadows Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Muspellsheimr]

If you are forcing your PC's to roll for EVERYTHING, then Sure... it will have issues... but the Maximum that a rating 3 verification system can generate is 3 hits (at most, though generally it will Average 1 Hit), With an average of 2 hits for the Rating 6 SIN... ON AVERAGE, your rating 6 SIN will WIN vs the Rating 3 Verification... Will it fail occassionally? Sure, but generally as a "Tie" rather than a Failure outright, which just means more intensive verification procedures will commence...

The question you should ask Muspellsheimr, is whether you can live with the averages, or do you want more intensive results... as a lot of people have indicated, they prefer that the higher rating SINS should have some reliability to them...

Not necessarily arguing here, but I too prefer some baselines of reliability, and some indication of when even Rating 1 SINs would generally succeed vs. Failing, as Dire Radiant and Kerenshara have indicated... If you are forced to validate EVERY time you do anything, then SINs become generally useless...

By the Fluff of the game (& common sense, if you actually think about it)

To put a real-world example to the SIN verification systems, I know what an ID for my state looks like. If I check to see if someone has an ID, I am also automatically checking if it's fake - probably equivalent to a Rating 1 system (the minimum). If I had training & equipment designed for the task, it would probably be equivalent to a Rating 3 system.

Such a check is made every time anyone does so much as check if you have a SIN.


To only check 'when it matters' is bullshit - it always matters if your ID will hold up or break. If your ID will ever be checked at the Stuffer Shack, it should always be checked at the Stuffer Shack. And not to check it goes against the fluff in the book.

The mechanics for Fake SIN's are fucking retarded - they cannot function without house rules if used 'as intended', and if you do not use them as such, & only when 'it's important', it breaks consistency within the game.




To show exactly how shitty the RAW Fakes are, here are the probabilities of a Rating 6 failing (this does not include ties - only failures).

Verification Rating / Probability of Failure

1 / 02.93% (1 out of 35)
2 / 07.80% (1 out of 13)
3 / 14.22% (1 out of 7)
4 / 21.70% (1 out of 5)
5 / 29.76% (1 out of 4)
6 / 37.97% (1 out of 3)

[kzt]

Given the Availability and the Cost of high level fake IDs, I expect more out of them, and I want the game rules to more consistent through out the in game experience, whether it is down time or active play.

Fake IDs are really not expensive in SR4. They were a LOT more expensive in SR3, but they were still not hugely expensive. And much cheaper and easier to get than really good fake IDs in the real world. I have been told by someone what a actual "real" fake ID cost in the late 60s, early 70s. $25,000. This was a genuine government issued passport & drivers license backed by genuine records created by a genuine government officer whose job it was to create/rebuild identifications for people. $25,000 then is equal to about $125,000 now. It still wouldn't stand up to something like a top secret security clearance background investigation, but it was perfect to anything short of that kind of expensive and slow investigation. (Or a fingerprint ID if you happened to already be in the FBI database.)

[TeOdio]

By the Fluff of the game (& common sense, if you actually think about it)

To put a real-world example to the SIN verification systems, I know what an ID for my state looks like. If I check to see if someone has an ID, I am also automatically checking if it's fake - probably equivalent to a Rating 1 system (the minimum). If I had training & equipment designed for the task, it would probably be equivalent to a Rating 3 system.

Such a check is made every time anyone does so much as check if you have a SIN.


To only check 'when it matters' is bullshit - it always matters if your ID will hold up or break. If your ID will ever be checked at the Stuffer Shack, it should always be checked at the Stuffer Shack. And not to check it goes against the fluff in the book.

The mechanics for Fake SIN's are fucking retarded - they cannot function without house rules if used 'as intended', and if you do not use them as such, & only when 'it's important', it breaks consistency within the game.




To show exactly how shitty the RAW Fakes are, here are the probabilities of a Rating 6 failing (this does not include ties - only failures).

Verification Rating / Probability of Failure

1 / 02.93% (1 out of 35)
2 / 07.80% (1 out of 13)
3 / 14.22% (1 out of 7)
4 / 21.70% (1 out of 5)
5 / 29.76% (1 out of 4)
6 / 37.97% (1 out of 3)

Not to bag too much, but what world do you live in? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) People get away with using their Spouse's Credit and Check cards all of the time in retail establishments. Those cards should not be taken unless used by the actual card holder. Heck, technically speaking, using a credit card that is not yours is considered Identity Theft, yet people get away with it ALL THE TIME. Guess what, occasionally the clerk follows policy and refuses the sale. 99% of the time they ask for some other form of payment and forget about the incident. I ask again, what makes folks think that failure equals burned? And as far as fluff goes, the vast majority of SINless don't go much further than whatever hell hole they are scraping a living in. They can't even scrape enough nuyen together to get even a Rating 1 SIN. And those that do use it to get on the bus to go to some menial crap job for a company that probably looked the other way when their ID's failed the background check. And as far as probability goes, if I made each one of my players check their ID against rating 3 scanners 7 times a game session they might choke me. It's a mechanic for a game to add some suspense and tension where needed. It certainly is not a simulation on real life ID theft, nor should it be. It is an abstract way of showing that data trails exist, and you can't close every hole, and sometimes that six grand worth of BS comes up short. I still say that does not mean you toss a six grand ID when you get flagged on the Metro and they don't let you board.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[DuctShuiTengu]

After having thought about this a bit more, I think I may have found the reason for IDs being set up with such disproportionately high chances of failure compared to what the fluff would indicate.

There's a tendency to assume that cases where we're required to roll for something in game are intended to be a representative sample of all cases in which that situation arises (That is: if the dice and probabilities say that my character has a 90% chance of succeeding at a given activity, they will continue to succeed at that activity 90% of the time even when the dice aren't being rolled; if my character will be failing a roll half the time, they'll be continuing to fail at that task half the time when rolls aren't required). Most of the time, the mechanics seem to be built around such assumptions as well.

But let's assume for the moment that security, licenses, and SINs aren't built around that assumption? After all, in general, if the roll isn't being made, it's because success is being taken as a given. So, if on the rolls against a Rating 1 security system, a Rating 6 SIN has a 2.93% chance of failure, but we're only making that roll for 1 check in 20, with a 0% chance of failure for the others, that leaves a 0.1465% chance of failure (Roughly 1 in 683); much closer to what the fluff seems to indicate. If that same SIN being checked by a rating 3 security system only gets rolled 1 time in 5, that brings the over-all odds down to just a 2.844% chance of it failing any given roll.

Now, I find it a bit odd to consider a system (or part of a system) having been set up that way, but... it does seem to bridge the gap between fluff and mechanics fairly well in this case.

[Writer]

... [what DuctShuiTengu said] ...

That's the point I was trying to make.
You put it much better.
Thank you.

This debate is definitely more about point of view than game mechanics.

[Kerenshara]

Fake IDs are really not expensive in SR4. They were a LOT more expensive in SR3, but they were still not hugely expensive. And much cheaper and easier to get than really good fake IDs in the real world. I have been told by someone what a actual "real" fake ID cost in the late 60s, early 70s. $25,000. This was a genuine government issued passport & drivers license backed by genuine records created by a genuine government officer whose job it was to create/rebuild identifications for people. $25,000 then is equal to about $125,000 now. It still wouldn't stand up to something like a top secret security clearance background investigation, but it was perfect to anything short of that kind of expensive and slow investigation. (Or a fingerprint ID if you happened to already be in the FBI database.)

OK, that's just it. That isn't technially a "fake" ID any more, regardless if the person is real or not. Issued for REAL by a LEGITIMATE agency through legitimate channels, there was mention someplace of a rating 7 or 8 ID possible only with direct governmental support. One might say a level 7 or 8 ID is actually legit. In the real world, there is so much drek in my data trail, when I have to answer certain questions about my past, about a third of the time I get it wrong. That's those "whoops!" moments where you have to explain to the person on the other end: "No, I'm really me. Just there was a point where I literally fell off the radar so hard even the Fed didn't really know where I was." Made for a fun time when I was up for a security clearance. And that was my REAL - issued at birth - ID. Now, if you were forging a fake, would you intentionally put that in? IfI wanted to, I could take the time to get it cleaned up, but for now it actually works in my favor
So in a way, I am arguing against myself here. But I guess I was making the case for a legitimate ID haiving a "rating". And that would be part of why the price is SO high. The other thing you could do, n order to split the issue down the middle, is increase the price of the IDs. We talk about them being hard to get because of the availability code, but the price really doesn't reflect the fluff OR the availability. So why not make it the rating squared times 1,000Â¥? That would keep the "bus pass" at 1,000Â¥, take the level 3 to 9,000Â¥, and put the level 6 at a very pricey 36,000Â¥. A "Legit" level 8 ID would be around 64,000Â¥, much closer to the "modern" figures given.
And lest we forget, there is one last thing to remember: physical ID is virtually unused. Post-Crash 2.0, nearly all ID checks are against elctronics, so having a legit "seal" physically pass inspection is nothing against being in the right data base.

[Kerenshara]

After having thought about this a bit more, I think I may have found the reason for IDs being set up with such disproportionately high chances of failure compared to what the fluff would indicate.

*snip*

So, if on the rolls against a Rating 1 security system, a Rating 6 SIN has a 2.93% chance of failure, but we're only making that roll for 1 check in 20, with a 0% chance of failure for the others, that leaves a 0.1465% chance of failure (Roughly 1 in 683); much closer to what the fluff seems to indicate. If that same SIN being checked by a rating 3 security system only gets rolled 1 time in 5, that brings the over-all odds down to just a 2.844% chance of it failing any given roll.

Now, I find it a bit odd to consider a system (or part of a system) having been set up that way, but... it does seem to bridge the gap between fluff and mechanics fairly well in this case.

Ok, but there is one last bit in the fluff that's important to take in to account: the rating of the scanner represents not so much a "physical" quality, but the number of factors taken into account. A rating 1 scaner is going to check hit a public database relevant to the transaction at hand. A rating 2 scanner is going to hit the "Big 3" credit agencies and look for a fraud warning and reprise above. Rating 3 - the one on the cop's belt, will also check the fingerprint of the indivitual against the data stored with the ID and cross-check with a secure data base, plus do a quick scan against a "wanted" data base or something similar - and remember the basic Comlink from the BBB states it includes a fingerprint scanner. Rating 4, the one I postulated in the squad car, also can access corporate databases over a more secure connection, and it pulls up things like a criminal record and other data useful in "following up". A rating 5 system would probably have a retinal scanner and will run very thorough checks through all public records via some sort of agent program(s) and hit every co-operating secure or private database to build a full picture. The rating 6 would include DNA samples and probably check questions as a matter of course.
That is the reason I shake my head at there being ANY meaningful chance of a rating 6 ID crapping out against a level 1 scan. Those were the first details ANY forger would have taken care of.

[kzt]

And lest we forget, there is one last thing to remember: physical ID is virtually unused. Post-Crash 2.0, nearly all ID checks are against elctronics, so having a legit "seal" physically pass inspection is nothing against being in the right data base.

Thanks for dropping the color.

That is true. The data base is very important, but having someone physically show up and ask questions is still really difficult to counter. When your 'boss' doesn't recognize your name and can't pick out your picture it doesn't really matter how convincing your data base edits are. Luckily StufferShack doesn't usually do this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Thanks for dropping the color.

That is true. The data base is very important, but having someone physically show up and ask questions is still really difficult to counter. When your 'boss' doesn't recognize your name and can't pick out your picture it doesn't really matter how convincing your data base edits are. Luckily StufferShack doesn't usually do this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

OK, there's the perfect example of where your GM tossed you a curve, because then no amount of ID works. That's why your HACKER gets in and sends him a memo saying to expect somebody new transfering in from some ungodly place. And hope he's not from there too.

[Writer]

So you used to work at a warehouse in which the immediate supervisor has "moved on" to other career opportunities and her manager has 200 people under him. He wouldn't be able to pick you out of a crowd, and some of the old timers on the floor don't care. Just to mess with "The Man", they may say, "yeah, I think I saw that guy working here, but maybe it was a different shift."

One of the problems with my real life resume is that two of my previous positions are gone. In fact, the whole department for each job is gone, and all my co-workers are dispersed. While this would help if I wasn't actually at those positions and needed filler background, it doesn't help in the fact that I really was there, but no one is around will vouch for me.

By the way, Kerenshara, I had the same thoughts on pricing, in addiction to the idea that the rating is a threshold. Rating 6 would be MUCH tougher to burn, but it would also be much more expensive and harder to get.

[kzt]

So you used to work at a warehouse in which the immediate supervisor has "moved on" to other career opportunities and her manager has 200 people under him. He wouldn't be able to pick you out of a crowd, and some of the old timers on the floor don't care. Just to mess with "The Man", they may say, "yeah, I think I saw that guy working here, but maybe it was a different shift."

One of the problems with my real life resume is that two of my previous positions are gone. In fact, the whole department for each job is gone, and all my co-workers are dispersed. While this would help if I wasn't actually at those positions and needed filler background, it doesn't help in the fact that I really was there, but no one is around will vouch for me.

The payroll records are there. And if you can get your character to get paid for a job he's never shown up for why are you running the shadows? Just buy a stack of fake IDs and collect the money deposited to your accounts every other Friday.

[Kerenshara]

The payroll records are there. And if you can get your character to get paid for a job he's never shown up for why are you running the shadows? Just buy a stack of fake IDs and collect the money deposited to your accounts every other Friday.

Because running pays a heck of a lot better than being a wage slave. More importantly, you're living a lie that eventually will come unravelled. I was making reference to (as I believe was Writer) the idea of a means to gain entry for a short time in order to successfully accomplish a goal. Hackers can work wonders on individual targets regarding badge access and so forth, but those really aren't SiN checks at all.
A SiN really represents a broad profile of your "life", everything from birth records, employment history (including corroborating details in the apropriate corp data havens), shopping and eating patterns, where you have supposedly lived, even to the Trid you like watching. It is to this basic framework that licenses, permits, bank accounts and comcodes are attached. The value of the SiN itself is that when processing the Driver's Permit, a simple cross check gives a valid response, assuming the license is any good, and since those have to only be in one or two databases, they are MUCH easier to make solid.
*scratches head*
You know, maybe we've been coming at this wrong all along? Maybe we should be focusing on the "permits" and the attachments more than the core IDs? (And they really should be included in those "total cost" calculations a few posts back.) It's the BANK ACCOUNT that matters, and so long as that's legit... and for a simple "cash" bank account how hard will a bank really check the provided ID? They get your money, right? Driver's Permit or a Carry Concealed would be about the same then. I need to go think about that some more.

[Writer]

Kerenshara, I was thinking more about this, also. Actual ID checks occur in areas where the authorities are concerned about who is in the area and are they supposed to be there. This could be an AAA neighborhood, where local citizens want to know that only the "correct" type of people are wandering the streets. It could also be at a night club, where the owners want to make sure people of a certain age are present. And, of course, there is the high security areas.

I also believe there are two very distinct ID checks that are completely opposite from each other. There is the basic, "Are you who you say you are?" check, where the authorities have your ID and you, and they are verifying whether you are in the database. You could have the same fingerprints for five different fake IDs, but they are only looking at one. On the other hand, the other type of ID check is more of a forensics check. They have bits and pieces of your ID, such as hair color, height, metatype, but they don't know who it belongs to. So they run the information through a scanner. Unless they have some very unique information, like fingerprints, DNA, Face Recognition, or Retinal Pattern, they will get a number of responses, and all five of your IDs could show up. This is the real concern with multiple IDs.

As for day to day living, I believe we all agree that during shopping adventures, most commercial venues really don't care what your ID says, as long as the ID has a money account attached. The Stuffer Shack isn't going to check fingerprints against a database, they are just going to see if your basics show up in any database with an account attached. Shops probably won't go too indepth with verifying user and ID matches, unless there is a lot of nuyen on the table. Identity Theft Insurance will cover a few burritos, but if someone uses your ID to buy an SUV, the insurance company will give more responsibility to the auto dealer to verify the correct person used the money account. Of course, if the account is a blind number account, no one will care.

Then we get into licensing. To get around the numbered account's blindness, and the fact that many street jurisdictions probably require active AR vehicle IDs, in place of physical license plates, the auto dealers may be required to authorize driver's licenses, before they can release a vehicle onto the streets. This would be relatively simple for more legal purchases, even for expensive items, and the scanning gear might even be subsidized by the government. More sophisticated scanning technology would be in place for dealers of restricted items, but they would be checking licenses, which are tied to IDs. A low rated license on a high rated ID is like a back door to badness. If one is burned, so is the other. Legitimate IDs can also get fake licenses, but this just leads to fines and maybe community service, depending on the jurisdiction and the item licensed. A teenager getting a fake license of some kind to show he is old enough to get into a night club would get a slap on the wrist and sent home to daddy. He would be interrogated, first, however, on where he got the fake license, of course. The teen, however, would not need to pay 1,000 nuyen to fake his age by a few years, just to get into a bar. A 100 nuyen professional license for driving, locksmithing, or any other profession that uses restricted or registered tools would do just fine. (Most vehicles are restricted, but they are usually registered.)

[Muspellsheimr]

As for day to day living, I believe we all agree that during shopping adventures, most commercial venues really don't care what your ID says, as long as the ID has a money account attached.

Not as written.

Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any form of
legal travel - including just buying a bus ticket.

Whenever a character uses her fake identity to pass an ID
check (whether for buying a dress or crossing a border), she
must make an Opposed Test pitting her fake ID's rating against
the rating of the verification system.

[Kerenshara]

Not as written.

I was looking at your quoted passages, and thinking about it. In a real-world perspecive, I am suspicious that what would actually occur is the minimum "compliance" level check against the ID in question, probably not more than a level 1 equivalent for most purchases and escalating from there. Which still unfortunately brings us back to the math as discussed in the thread above at length, ad nauseum, so forth and so on.
WAIT!!!
Where was the old table that indicated what level of biometrics was needed to pass for a given level of certified credstick?! (I am away from my old books at the moment) THAT might be our answer, since those levels roughly correspond to the ratings of SiNs... (OK I know we're back off RAW at the moment, but NOBODY has actually said that's how they run them at home, so I don't feel but SO bad.)

IIRC it went like this:
Basic (R1 equivalent) Password
Silver (R3 equivalent) Password + Fingerprint
Gold (R4 equivalent) Password + Fingerprint + Verbal Authorization
Platinum (R5 equivalent) Password + Retina Print + Verbal Authorization
Ebony (R6 equivalent) password + DNA + Retina Print + Verbal Authorization

Figure DNA is a little OVERparanoid and takes too much time when cycling a LOT of people through an airport, so they would have R4 or R5 at best... Normal daily check R3 or lower, down to R1 for buying disposable clothes from a vending machine. And if you put in thresholds for the IDs combined with the scaled costs I tossed out earlier, now you have a system that is A) repeatable/consistent B) still allows for failures at key moments C) keeps IDs a central and important theme without getting gritty OR careless with them.

Say if your ID is of the equivalent level as the test, it's Scanner Rating + Scanner Rating(ID Rating)? If it's lower, there's not much issue. The real sticking point is that DNA sample at the very high end, but there we're getting into ultra-secure, low-throughput corporate and government compounds. Even a prison is wasting time on the DNA scanner when you get right down to if, except at initial processing. And if it's a minor offense, why bother? Remember, the cops are a corporation, too - the bottom line is everything, chummer. So then your Rating 6 is near bulletproof except against a rating 6 scanner, then you need a blood sample from somewhere. The GM is free to modify the point for requesting a check if you've been careless with the ID or somebody has a good reason to suspect and goes for a harder check. And a deeper check would be more RAW, with follow up you MIGHT be able to talk around.

"No, seriously, there was a glitch we've never been able to get fixed for some reason. My prints, voice and eyes always match, it's just so frustrating!"

Course then you could always pay for Masque^TM and prompt it to automatically ask for all the other tests, but force a skip on the DNA side... Just thinking out loud here.

[Writer]

As for day to day living, I believe we all agree that during shopping adventures, most commercial venues really don't care what your ID says, as long as the ID has a money account attached.

Not as written.

In reference to the commercial venues caring, I was refering to the details of the ID, not the verification. In fact, if your ID is false, then it cannot verify there is a valid money account attached, so it will be rejected. My point was more that if they can't verify you have money to spend, they are going to turn you away. They probably won't call the police and have you arrested, though. The fuss just isn't worth the Public Relations effort.

(As written, a Rating 1 fake ID is TOTALLY useless, as it will fail even the most basic test against an R1 scanner 22% of the time. Getting a bus to the grocery store, then a bus trip back home would incur at least three checks. For 1,000 nuyen, I have a 53% chance of having my ID fail on a simple trip to get bread. Yeah, I know I am beating a dead horse at this point.)

[Zurai]

In fact, if your ID is false, then it cannot verify there is a valid money account attached, so it will be rejected.

Not true, actually. You can have fake IDs tied to real bank accounts. Heck, real banks even, as opposed to shadow accounts.

[Writer]

Right on Zurai, but if the ID proves to be false, then the legitimate company might have some trouble come tax time when they show they received money from a false legal entity. The account might be real, as well as the nuyen, but if the ID is fake, it is probably against the law to complete such a transaction. I bet accounting in the 2070s is very complex and strict, since there is an expectation that you can instantly provide records of all transactions for the past year(s).

[kzt]

Right on Zurai, but if the ID proves to be false, then the legitimate company might have some trouble come tax time when they show they received money from a false legal entity. The account might be real, as well as the nuyen, but if the ID is fake, it is probably against the law to complete such a transaction. I bet accounting in the 2070s is very complex and strict, since there is an expectation that you can instantly provide records of all transactions for the past year(s).

It's worse than that. Banks are corporations. If you can connect any random ID to a bank account without a clear transaction trail you have the potential for fradulent transactions. As the bank would have processed this that would be due to the bank, which means the bank would be expected to make the defrauded entity whole. This impacts the bottom line. And could result in bad publicity. Anything that increases the risk to banks of fraud isn't going to be supported by the law or by the operational practices of the bank.

[Heath Robinson]

Unless they have some very unique information, like fingerprints, DNA, Face Recognition, or Retinal Pattern, they will get a number of responses, and all five of your IDs could show up. This is the real concern with multiple IDs.

In a world where you've had a pair of ID destroying international network failures (and probably forensic computing efforts to retrieve that data) as well as SIN amnesties, corporate SIN issuers, and extractions of high profile targets (and their families) from one corporation to another I have a hard time believing that anyone is going to make a big deal out of someone who has multiple SINs attached to their biometrics.

People make mistakes - a SIN that was meant to be invalidated or revoked ended up not. Blaming the SINner in this case is going to generate a Human Relations disaster, so even Cops are just going to let a suspect choose the SIN they're currently using and get the validity of the SINs checked if the arrest leads to a court case.

[Writer]

Good point, Heath Robinson, I hadn't thought of that. The problem is, if one SIN shows you graduated from college in 2063 and the other shows you have no college education, there may be a problem. One SIN should stop the same time another starts. Otherwise, you would be operating under two SINs at once and that is a big no-no in most places. A SIN is supposed to be a unique system marker.

[Heath Robinson]

SIN amnesties mean that you could have completed your college education, had your SIN vanish and then applied during a SIN amnesty and not have it added to your new SIN if your college hasn't gotten back to them yet - meanwhile the original SIN database was partially restored with your old SIN intact. As a nice handwave for an RPG, I'm going to say that colleges are untowardly worried about people getting academic qualifications they shouldn't, meaning that they are very slowly working their way through requests to validate the owners of new SINs that have passed through their halls and, therefore, there are still large piles of requests still in the air and nobody bats an eyelid at it.

Like I said - people make mistakes and a SIN might not be marked invalid or revoked when it ought to. You should also be able to have multiple SINs active at once if both your issuers allow it (like having dual citizenship today). Corps will totally let their employees keep their old SINs if it gets them more important hires, and I suspect that the dual citizenship permitted to US citizens would be inherited by UCAS and modified into dual SINnership.

[Kerenshara]

Right on Zurai, but if the ID proves to be false, then the legitimate company might have some trouble come tax time when they show they received money from a false legal entity. The account might be real, as well as the nuyen, but if the ID is fake, it is probably against the law to complete such a transaction. I bet accounting in the 2070s is very complex and strict, since there is an expectation that you can instantly provide records of all transactions for the past year(s).

*blinks*
Tax time?! You're kidding, right?
As KZT said "Banks are corporations", and since the big banks are direct subsidiaries of the AAA's, they have Extrateritoriality. That means NO taxes; In fact, it means no oversight by anybody but themselves and MAYBE the Corporate Court. But the individual MEGAS may have very strict INTERNAL regulations about that sort of thing.

[Kerenshara]

Good point, Heath Robinson, I hadn't thought of that. The problem is, if one SIN shows you graduated from college in 2063 and the other shows you have no college education, there may be a problem. One SIN should stop the same time another starts. Otherwise, you would be operating under two SINs at once and that is a big no-no in most places. A SIN is supposed to be a unique system marker.

Why? Same eaxct problem applies for the education mismatch: the records linking the one SiN to a college record got damaged or corrupted. Obvious answer is to query the school directly.

As to the "uniqueness" of SiNs to an individual... that's a little stickier, buy I recall when the Comonwealth of Virginia made the transition from Social Security Numbers for Driver's License number to a unique number sequence. I wound up taking advantage of that fact and for a time was running TWO separate credit files. Eventually they figured it out and consolidated, but if I could do it as a legitimate citizen taking advantage of a simple oversight, what could a criminal syndicate do with malice aforethought?

[Kerenshara]

Like I said - people make mistakes and a SIN might not be marked invalid or revoked when it ought to. You should also be able to have multiple SINs active at once if both your issuers allow it (like having dual citizenship today). Corps will totally let their employees keep their old SINs if it gets them more important hires, and I suspect that the dual citizenship permitted to US citizens would be inherited by UCAS and modified into dual SINnership.

I hadn't considered the dual-citizenship idea either. Nationality if born outside a Corp, the Corp once you're in. Great point.