 Rethreading Question/Source |
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 Jan 20 2008, 09:21 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 21-August 07 Member No.: 12,804  |
Greetings,
I've seen the idea of "rethreading" discussed quite a bit with regards to Technomancers and was wondering where the concept came from... what rules are being used (or interpreted) to explain how it works as far as game mechanics go? Is this just a popular house rule? Thanks, --Xel |
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Jan 20 2008, 11:00 AM
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#2
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I don't know quite where it originated, but I sure won't be using it.
Personally, I'd love to see Threading restricted even further by actually making it take some kind of Action. |
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Jan 20 2008, 11:27 AM
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#3
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
I think it came up in a discussion about a TM made by Tarantula.
There is no basic explanation. The rules do not assign an action to threading, so nothing really stops you from rolling threading again and again until you have the desired number of successes. Count me, like Fortune, amongst those who would have you roll only once. If someone in my group started playing a TM for real I´d likely allow them to choose the number of successes, if it came up. |
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Jan 20 2008, 01:25 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Nothing stops you from using threading again and again except that it must be sustained so penalties would accumulate rapidly. AFAIK nothing says this penalty is not applied to hacking rolls (exploit etc.) or even to resist fading.
I think it is pretty clear threading was not made to stack with itself, any more than spell force stacks. |
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Jan 20 2008, 01:34 PM
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#5
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
The point of rethreading is not stacking, but waiting for a roll with more successes. You drop unsatisfactory threadings to do it anew, which by RAW does not even take an action.
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Jan 20 2008, 01:36 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 285 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 8,495 |
I don't think so:
SR Core Rules p.234 Technomancers have the ability to improvise Complex Forms that they do not know on the fly, OR increase the rating of a complex form they do know. So at least you can't increase a complex form you don't know, after you improvised it. and in my opinion, threading doesn't stack, because its the only logical way and there isn't any suggestion that it might be stacking. naturally you can try multiple times to thread until you have enough hits, but you will suffer fading every time. cya Tycho |
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Jan 20 2008, 01:42 PM
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#7
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Fading for what? Guess how high you choose to thread if you don´t want to keep the result?
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Jan 20 2008, 01:46 PM
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#8
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
And just what limits would you put on a non-Action? When does it start to get silly? |
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Jan 20 2008, 02:45 PM
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#9
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
how about this, threading is only allowed as a test within a action...
as in, if the TM tries to do something he does not have the complex form for, he gets to try and thread it as part of the action, taking whatever he gets. same with a complex form he have, but may not cut it. then he can thread it up as part of using said complex form within a action. that way threading itself do not take a action, but it still takes a action to use threading ;) ok, so one can have a TM sitting around doing trivial actions to try and thread himself a nasty CF. but then you hit him with a ICE unless he is doing it his home node or something. and using that place to thread, where every action would, in theory, be automatic? rules abuse :P |
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Jan 20 2008, 05:13 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
that is how threading works, allowing a TM to just reroll until he gets the hits he wants is the same as allowing a mage to reroll intil he gets the hits he wants. |
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Jan 20 2008, 06:57 PM
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#11
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
something a mage can in theory do on some spells :(
hell, i recall reading something like that about anchored spells at some edition or other (probably second, as thats the first anchoring rules i bumped into, and i would say they are still the best ones)... but does the book at any time directly state that rolling treading as part of a matrix action is the official way of using threading? |
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Jan 20 2008, 10:06 PM
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#12
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
No, it has threading and using a complex form as separate actions.
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Jan 20 2008, 10:12 PM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Really? What specific type of Action does Threading require? Free? Simple? Complex? |
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Jan 20 2008, 10:22 PM
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#14
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
That is the problem. It does not say. But the description does sound like a process that takes time.
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Jan 20 2008, 10:54 PM
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#15
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Rethreading becomes fairly self policing if your DM remembers that each time you "try again" on a failed task (And if you didn't fail then why in the hell are you rerolling in the first place?) you take a -2 to your dicepool, and the modifier stacks.
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Jan 21 2008, 12:15 AM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's part of the problem. Some people believe that it is both possible and permissible to re-thread, and then add the hits to their previous threading attempt. And then do it again. All of which seem to take up no actual time or concentration, being that there isn't even a Free Action involved. |
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Jan 21 2008, 12:49 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Jup I think that fixes it more or less. I use this penalty on spells, summoning spirits as well so why not here? It practically begs for it. |
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Jan 21 2008, 12:52 AM
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#18
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
one COULD argue, that you are not actually failing but simply trying again . . like when you try to build a paper plane . . you actually succeed in making one the first time, but you're not happy about that angle here or that fold there and so you start anew untill you have a plane that you believe to be perfect O.o
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Jan 21 2008, 03:32 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Except in this system the attempts at making something and redoing it till it's the way you want it is one simple roll. Oh, and having folded a few paper planes I remember refolding one usually make it worse - much better to have a straight fresh paper sheet. And whenever you roll a success test in this game you either succeed or fail - getting no hits means you fail, even if you chose that yourself. And you're not really defending this are you.. damn these japanese smileys - they're all ninjas hiding in plain sight! |
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Jan 21 2008, 10:22 AM
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#20
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
nah, i ain't defending this *g*
it's basically the same problem as with any build/repair test where you wanna build something and can take it apart again to reuse the same parts . . of course, that will not work with ONE sheet of paper for several planes *g* and don't you be hating on my smileys ._. |
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Jan 21 2008, 05:14 PM
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#21
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, but I don't allow characters to get away with using B/R skills like that either, for starters I figure that threads are going to get slightly stripped, ect in the process of putting it together/taking it apart, not to mention the mental exhaustion that comes from repetitive tasks.
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Jan 21 2008, 10:47 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
there isn't any mental exhaustion for something that the character enjoys doing. nor is there destroyed items in a build/repair unless he's making something from scratch and not simply buying parts and assembling the item, for instance new part/old car. |
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Jan 21 2008, 11:28 PM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Are you talking 'real life' or 'in game'? Because if you meant 'real life', you are definitely wrong on both statements. |
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Jan 22 2008, 05:52 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 698 Joined: 26-October 06 From: Iowa, United States Member No.: 9,720 |
Rethreading (with rules as is) comes down to two scenarios
Of course in this context the first is obviously the better choice, except when you look at your technomancer as some sort of masochist who mutilates himself in order to prevent the hacker from injuring him...??? But mages take damage as well right... True a mage casts a force 5 fireball, he suffers 7 drain, and does 5 + Net Hits damage to everyone in the area. Technomancer compiles a rating 5 Black Hammer, he suffers 5 drain, and adds 5 dice to his pool. He's not getting hits he's getting chances at hits. How about the mage upping his dice pool, he casts a force 5 Increase [Attribute], he suffers 1 drain, and adds (up to) 5 dice to his pool. I don't see any problem with rethreading to prevent damage, and get chances of success. Just needs to put time periods on it to prevent them from rethreading constantly at rating 1. |
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Jan 22 2008, 06:00 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
cuz you know when I take apart a computer and put it back together, there's no way I could have done it without breaking something... and when I have to clean out the fuel system in my car I take it completely apart, and obviously there's no way I could put it back to together without breaking it. and when I work on computers all day, and then work on my car all night, I'm obviously suffering from mental stress that inhibits me so much I can't function properly. @Night: why allow them to do it in the first place? just state that threading is part of the action and you can only "rethread" on subsequent rounds/actions, but only once per action. |
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