Greetings,
I've seen the idea of "rethreading" discussed quite a bit with regards to Technomancers and was wondering where the concept came from... what rules are being used (or interpreted) to explain how it works as far as game mechanics go? Is this just a popular house rule?
Thanks,
--Xel
Full Version: Rethreading Question/Source
I don't know quite where it originated, but I sure won't be using it.
Personally, I'd love to see Threading restricted even further by actually making it take some kind of Action.
Personally, I'd love to see Threading restricted even further by actually making it take some kind of Action.
I think it came up in a discussion about a TM made by Tarantula.
There is no basic explanation. The rules do not assign an action to threading, so nothing really stops you from rolling threading again and again until you have the desired number of successes.
Count me, like Fortune, amongst those who would have you roll only once. If someone in my group started playing a TM for real I´d likely allow them to choose the number of successes, if it came up.
There is no basic explanation. The rules do not assign an action to threading, so nothing really stops you from rolling threading again and again until you have the desired number of successes.
Count me, like Fortune, amongst those who would have you roll only once. If someone in my group started playing a TM for real I´d likely allow them to choose the number of successes, if it came up.
Nothing stops you from using threading again and again except that it must be sustained so penalties would accumulate rapidly. AFAIK nothing says this penalty is not applied to hacking rolls (exploit etc.) or even to resist fading.
I think it is pretty clear threading was not made to stack with itself, any more than spell force stacks.
I think it is pretty clear threading was not made to stack with itself, any more than spell force stacks.
The point of rethreading is not stacking, but waiting for a roll with more successes. You drop unsatisfactory threadings to do it anew, which by RAW does not even take an action.
I don't think so:
SR Core Rules p.234
Technomancers have the ability to improvise Complex Forms that they do not know on the fly, OR increase the rating of a complex form they do know.
So at least you can't increase a complex form you don't know, after you improvised it.
and in my opinion, threading doesn't stack, because its the only logical way and there isn't any suggestion that it might be stacking.
naturally you can try multiple times to thread until you have enough hits, but you will suffer fading every time.
cya
Tycho
SR Core Rules p.234
Technomancers have the ability to improvise Complex Forms that they do not know on the fly, OR increase the rating of a complex form they do know.
So at least you can't increase a complex form you don't know, after you improvised it.
and in my opinion, threading doesn't stack, because its the only logical way and there isn't any suggestion that it might be stacking.
naturally you can try multiple times to thread until you have enough hits, but you will suffer fading every time.
cya
Tycho
Fading for what? Guess how high you choose to thread if you don´t want to keep the result?
| QUOTE (Tycho) |
| naturally you can try multiple times to thread until you have enough hits ... |
And just what limits would you put on a non-Action? When does it start to get silly?
how about this, threading is only allowed as a test within a action...
as in, if the TM tries to do something he does not have the complex form for, he gets to try and thread it as part of the action, taking whatever he gets.
same with a complex form he have, but may not cut it. then he can thread it up as part of using said complex form within a action.
that way threading itself do not take a action, but it still takes a action to use threading
ok, so one can have a TM sitting around doing trivial actions to try and thread himself a nasty CF. but then you hit him with a ICE unless he is doing it his home node or something. and using that place to thread, where every action would, in theory, be automatic? rules abuse
as in, if the TM tries to do something he does not have the complex form for, he gets to try and thread it as part of the action, taking whatever he gets.
same with a complex form he have, but may not cut it. then he can thread it up as part of using said complex form within a action.
that way threading itself do not take a action, but it still takes a action to use threading
ok, so one can have a TM sitting around doing trivial actions to try and thread himself a nasty CF. but then you hit him with a ICE unless he is doing it his home node or something. and using that place to thread, where every action would, in theory, be automatic? rules abuse
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| as in, if the TM tries to do something he does not have the complex form for, he gets to try and thread it as part of the action, taking whatever he gets. |
that is how threading works, allowing a TM to just reroll until he gets the hits he wants is the same as allowing a mage to reroll intil he gets the hits he wants.
something a mage can in theory do on some spells 
hell, i recall reading something like that about anchored spells at some edition or other (probably second, as thats the first anchoring rules i bumped into, and i would say they are still the best ones)...
but does the book at any time directly state that rolling treading as part of a matrix action is the official way of using threading?
hell, i recall reading something like that about anchored spells at some edition or other (probably second, as thats the first anchoring rules i bumped into, and i would say they are still the best ones)...
but does the book at any time directly state that rolling treading as part of a matrix action is the official way of using threading?
No, it has threading and using a complex form as separate actions.
| QUOTE (Ryu) |
| No, it has threading and using a complex form as separate actions. |
Really? What specific type of Action does Threading require? Free? Simple? Complex?
That is the problem. It does not say. But the description does sound like a process that takes time.
Rethreading becomes fairly self policing if your DM remembers that each time you "try again" on a failed task (And if you didn't fail then why in the hell are you rerolling in the first place?) you take a -2 to your dicepool, and the modifier stacks.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| And if you didn't fail then why in the hell are you rerolling in the first place?. |
That's part of the problem. Some people believe that it is both possible and permissible to re-thread, and then add the hits to their previous threading attempt. And then do it again. All of which seem to take up no actual time or concentration, being that there isn't even a Free Action involved.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Rethreading becomes fairly self policing if your DM remembers that each time you "try again" on a failed task (And if you didn't fail then why in the hell are you rerolling in the first place?) you take a -2 to your dicepool, and the modifier stacks. |
Jup I think that fixes it more or less. I use this penalty on spells, summoning spirits as well so why not here? It practically begs for it.
one COULD argue, that you are not actually failing but simply trying again . . like when you try to build a paper plane . . you actually succeed in making one the first time, but you're not happy about that angle here or that fold there and so you start anew untill you have a plane that you believe to be perfect O.o
| QUOTE (Stahlseele) |
| one COULD argue, that you are not actually failing but simply trying again . . like when you try to build a paper plane . . you actually succeed in making one the first time, but you're not happy about that angle here or that fold there and so you start anew untill you have a plane that you believe to be perfect O.o |
Except in this system the attempts at making something and redoing it till it's the way you want it is one simple roll.
Oh, and having folded a few paper planes I remember refolding one usually make it worse - much better to have a straight fresh paper sheet.
And whenever you roll a success test in this game you either succeed or fail - getting no hits means you fail, even if you chose that yourself.
And you're not really defending this are you.. damn these japanese smileys - they're all ninjas hiding in plain sight!
nah, i ain't defending this *g*
it's basically the same problem as with any build/repair test where you wanna build something and can take it apart again to reuse the same parts . . of course, that will not work with ONE sheet of paper for several planes *g*
and don't you be hating on my smileys ._.
it's basically the same problem as with any build/repair test where you wanna build something and can take it apart again to reuse the same parts . . of course, that will not work with ONE sheet of paper for several planes *g*
and don't you be hating on my smileys ._.
Sure, but I don't allow characters to get away with using B/R skills like that either, for starters I figure that threads are going to get slightly stripped, ect in the process of putting it together/taking it apart, not to mention the mental exhaustion that comes from repetitive tasks.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Sure, but I don't allow characters to get away with using B/R skills like that either, for starters I figure that threads are going to get slightly stripped, ect in the process of putting it together/taking it apart, not to mention the mental exhaustion that comes from repetitive tasks. |
there isn't any mental exhaustion for something that the character enjoys doing.
nor is there destroyed items in a build/repair unless he's making something from scratch and not simply buying parts and assembling the item, for instance new part/old car.
| QUOTE (djinni) |
| there isn't any mental exhaustion for something that the character enjoys doing. nor is there destroyed items in a build/repair unless he's making something from scratch and not simply buying parts and assembling the item, for instance new part/old car. |
Are you talking 'real life' or 'in game'? Because if you meant 'real life', you are definitely wrong on both statements.
Rethreading (with rules as is) comes down to two scenarios
| QUOTE |
| You disallow it, and technomancers have their masterbutory roll-a-thon, till they get as high of a rating as is possible (or as high as they want)... Then they'll suffer fading equal to that rating. Or you allow it, and the technomancer (after a finite number of rolls) will always pull up a max rating program, with 0 or minimal fading. |
Of course in this context the first is obviously the better choice, except when you look at your technomancer as some sort of masochist who mutilates himself in order to prevent the hacker from injuring him...???
But mages take damage as well right... True a mage casts a force 5 fireball, he suffers 7 drain, and does 5 + Net Hits damage to everyone in the area.
Technomancer compiles a rating 5 Black Hammer, he suffers 5 drain, and adds 5 dice to his pool. He's not getting hits he's getting chances at hits.
How about the mage upping his dice pool, he casts a force 5 Increase [Attribute], he suffers 1 drain, and adds (up to) 5 dice to his pool.
I don't see any problem with rethreading to prevent damage, and get chances of success. Just needs to put time periods on it to prevent them from rethreading constantly at rating 1.
| QUOTE (Fortune @ Jan 21 2008, 06:28 PM) |
| Are you talking 'real life' or 'in game'? Because if you meant 'real life', you are definitely wrong on both statements. |
cuz you know when I take apart a computer and put it back together, there's no way I could have done it without breaking something...
and when I have to clean out the fuel system in my car I take it completely apart, and obviously there's no way I could put it back to together without breaking it.
and when I work on computers all day, and then work on my car all night, I'm obviously suffering from mental stress that inhibits me so much I can't function properly.
@Night:
why allow them to do it in the first place? just state that threading is part of the action and you can only "rethread" on subsequent rounds/actions, but only once per action.
| QUOTE (djinni @ Jan 22 2008, 04:00 PM) |
| cuz you know when I take apart a computer and put it back together, there's no way I could have done it without breaking something... and when I have to clean out the fuel system in my car I take it completely apart, and obviously there's no way I could put it back to together without breaking it. |
Wow! Must be great to be perfect. Those if us that are not however, have some experience with things that break unexpectedly. Even brand new things.
I have seen mechanics break a brand new part. I have seen computer geeks break a new motherboard. There are numerous mishaps that can occur when just using new parts to build something.
Nobody said anything about breakage every single time, but it does happen. You seem to think that it never happens.
| QUOTE |
| and when I work on computers all day, and then work on my car all night, I'm obviously suffering from mental stress that inhibits me so much I can't function properly. |
And yet people burn out doing things they love all the time.
Maybe you are extremely lucky, but that doesn't mean this kind of thing doesn't happen to other people.
| QUOTE |
| Nobody said anything about breakage every single time, but it does happen. You seem to think that it never happens. |
i'd say that's a glitch, or critical glitch . . if you don't have andy "hits" you have no success, you just somehow can't do "whatever" . . if you have one or two "hits" so you have at least one net-"hit" you manage to do "whatever" . . if barely and not in style and slowly . . so you take it apart again and do the same thing again . . and looky here . . 6 "hits" what a success! . . you manage to do "whatever" in style, and fast and good to boot!
A SRM director has confirmed with a dev that rethreading is not legal.
I suggest rethreading not being legal be explicitly added to an errata.
SOURCE: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=816990
I suggest rethreading not being legal be explicitly added to an errata.
SOURCE: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...st&p=816990
Wasabi,
You're missing the meaning. Rethreading means both "I thread again and try to stack the thread attempts" which is disallowed by the thing you've linked to. The rethreading we're discussing in this thread is where you thread, then decide whether you want the roll and choose to use 0 hits if you don't - you take 0 DV and get to try again for free. Repeat until you get the result you want.
There are no vitally important Matrix Free Actions - so let's assume Threading is a Free Action instead of a non-action. Tada, a budget on threading attempts.
Edit: And after writing this post I noticed the little extra note at the end. Fuh, I'm an idiot.
You're missing the meaning. Rethreading means both "I thread again and try to stack the thread attempts" which is disallowed by the thing you've linked to. The rethreading we're discussing in this thread is where you thread, then decide whether you want the roll and choose to use 0 hits if you don't - you take 0 DV and get to try again for free. Repeat until you get the result you want.
There are no vitally important Matrix Free Actions - so let's assume Threading is a Free Action instead of a non-action. Tada, a budget on threading attempts.
Edit: And after writing this post I noticed the little extra note at the end. Fuh, I'm an idiot.
I thought that answered the question. Even though the poster said it wasn't RAW, limiting the TM to 1 threading when using a CF makes perfect sense (I think this is RAI). My TM player has yet to try more than one thread attempt, but I think this would be a viable solution. Most importantly, this keeps the game moving. Hopefully the SR4A errata will clarify.
Another quick way to fix this would be to shift the order of a couple of the steps here around. Normally, threading (and spellcasting, IIRC) work as follows:
Switch it to instead run like so:
Viola. Technomancer no longer gets to see whether they like the roll and then decide whether to keep it. They can potentially still thread, drop, and rethread until they get all hits, but they're no longer taking 0 Drain for the attempts leading up to that one good roll.
- Choose CF to thread
- Roll dice
- Choose how many of the rolled hits to use
Switch it to instead run like so:
- Choose CF to thread
- Choose maximum number of hits to use
- Roll dice
Viola. Technomancer no longer gets to see whether they like the roll and then decide whether to keep it. They can potentially still thread, drop, and rethread until they get all hits, but they're no longer taking 0 Drain for the attempts leading up to that one good roll.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.