Astral Hazing for a Magician, Seems like a bad idea, right? Options

[Draco18s]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive...

That's my feeling as well. The only true positive nature of astral hazing is that magic doesn't work on you, at all. This does keep you alive when mages start tossing fireballs (and my group did make heavy use of the one character's immunity on at least one occasion) but you also can't be buffed or healed by magic either. He was a non-mage, so it wasn't as twinkish.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's my feeling as well. The only true positive nature of astral hazing is that magic doesn't work on you, at all. This does keep you alive when mages start tossing fireballs (and my group did make heavy use of the one character's immunity on at least one occasion) but you also can't be buffed or healed by magic either. He was a non-mage, so it wasn't as twinkish.

I never read it a never affecting you at all, but you do get the benefits of that magic being reduced by the Hazing... it is heavily balanced out by not being able to truly benefit from the positive applications of magic though, yeah...

[Mäx]

Why not? Imagine sitting down in one place for a month and covering a 1 mile diameter area of a city. I bet every corp that has mages would get pissed off REAL fast and try and aspect the domain encroaching on their building so it doesn't effect them.

NAh, they would just track you down and kill you or "volunteer" you for some "completly harmles" expiriments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I really don't think that it's a good idea to stay in one place for long if you have astrall hazing.

[Draco18s]

you do get the benefits of that magic being reduced by the Hazing...

That's what I meant, really. -4 force is nasty. God forbid the caster is inside your emenation area too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's what I meant, really. -4 force is nasty. God forbid the caster is inside your emenation area too.

Oh No... MUCH WORSE THAN THAT... It is a -4 to Magic Rating... Much Worse...
Whether he is inside or outside from the way I read it... it reduces the effect of the spell by reducing the Magical Attribute, not the force of the Spell, that is cast into the area of BC...

Unless I have completely read it wrong

[Mäx]

That's what I meant, really. -4 force is nasty. God forbid the caster is inside your emenation area too.

Thats why the saying goes
"Good combat mage can kill you with a mere thought, great one knows when to use his trusty predator instead"
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Umbra]

Actually, upon secondary reading of that myself, that is not what that line of text says. It talks about the ambient mana conditions returning to normal after the cyberzombie leaves. If the CZ has an aspected BC to onions, then that onion BC will fade when he leaves, not onions will fade from his BC.



So you can still Geomancy Astral Hazing, given enough time and preparation, because it is treated as a BC. The only thing that makes it different from normal BC is the fact that it follows you around and grows when you stop.

My point was that after the Cyberzombie has left, the condition of overriding the ambient mana conditions goes with him. I got the impression that the now fading Astral Hazing he has left behind does not carry the quality of overriding local ambient mana conditions, and should be treated as a normal aspected domain. (But one aspected towards no known style of magic.) This domain is fading away at the rate of one point per day, so only on the last day could you perform the Geomancy Ritual, to get almost 20 hours of a rating 1 domain aspected towards your style of magic.

And yes, given enough time and preparation you could reaspect the domain of a cyberzombie even while he's still within the domain, you just need to do a ritual that takes about 4 hours, wait one month, do the ritual again, do it 2 more times over the next 2 months, and then have the Astral Hazing again instantly change the aspect back.

Normal domains don't have a special rule about overriding anything you do to change the aspect of a background count. Astral Hazing does have that rule.


Now lets assume that you or your GM says that if the aspect of an Astral Hazing could be changed, and that the overriding ability of an Astral Hazing
to set things back now instantly changes the domain back to your style from now on...

Quoting Street Magic:

"This ritual must successfully be completed once each lunar month (28 days) for a number of months in a row equal to the site’s background count for the aspecting to become permanent. Until that time, the background count retains its original aspect."

This implies that you can indeed take 4 months to reaspect a Astral Hazing Domain. But...

"To ensure that the imprinted mana does not dissipate between rituals, and to maintain an aspect once changed, it is necessary to ensure the site itself observes the geomantic lore of the initiate’s tradition. If the site does not already correspond to such criteria (an ancient stone circle would correspond
to the Druidic tradition’s criteria, but not a wujen’s feng shui), the site may need to be “re-sculpted.� This may require altering the immediate landscape, constructing a building from scratch, rearranging the furniture, performing regular religious observances, or offering sacrifices to local spirits. The nature and extent of each tradition’s criteria are left to the gamemaster to define as appropriate to the situation."

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I can't quite imagine a magical tradition that has Geomantic lore involving having a Cyberzombie polluting Astral Space sitting in the middle of your ritual clubhouse. Well no magical tradition besides the ones on those horrible Disney TV shows the kids are watching while we're trying to play Shadowrun. I mean talk about toxic!

[Draco18s]

Oh No... MUCH WORSE THAN THAT... It is a -4 to Magic Rating... Much Worse...
Unless I have completely read it wrong

-4 force for casting into your area. Worse if they are inside the area as well in which case, it's -4 magic AND -4 force.

[toturi]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive... if you want to go that route... buy off the negative quality, initiate a few times and get Geomancy, and then aspect yourself a positive BC aftarwards... you should not EVER be able to do so while the negative quality is in place...

Want to have a positive benefit from BC, craft it yourself with Geomancy, but don't buy the negative quality and then "aspect" it to a positivbe bonus... To this, I call foul...

Of Course... that is my 2 nuyen, but really, does this not smack anyone else as powergaming at its finest?

Negative Qualities is just that. Those qualities are called Negative Qualities, they do not necessarily need to be negative. Everything can be a weapon and be made to serve you if you know how to make it, and everything can be made to hurt you, if your enemies know how.

By my reading of RAW, I do not think that Geomancy can work with Astral Hazing of either form, however, but I think I can see how a GM might read it such that it can be.

[McAllister]

I'm not sure what to think. The negative quality Gremlins is VERY VERY SPECIFIC that it is NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM something to be used as a weapon. Is that A. a comment on dev thinking about negative qualities, or B. a specific exception to the principal Toturi is suggesting?

[toturi]

I'm not sure what to think. The negative quality Gremlins is VERY VERY SPECIFIC that it is NOT in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM something to be used as a weapon. Is that A. a comment on dev thinking about negative qualities, or B. a specific exception to the principal Toturi is suggesting?

Perhaps weapon was not the best way to describe it but the idea was that you could figure out some way to make the quality work for you or at least not work against you. You could engineer a win-win situation for the case of Gremlins, if it kicks in, great, if it doesn't kick in, great too. Then whatever it does, it works for you.

[Draco18s]

Perhaps weapon was not the best way to describe it but the idea was that you could figure out some way to make the quality work for you or at least not work against you. You could engineer a win-win situation for the case of Gremlins, if it kicks in, great, if it doesn't kick in, great too. Then whatever it does, it works for you.

I think what they mean is that a character with gremlins who attempts to use a control console to a nuclear reactor, in an attempt to make it go critical would merely short out the control panel, thus screwing themselves.

The idea is that you can't interact with technology in a way where you intend to break it in such a way to be beneficial to you: no matter what you're trying to do, the gremlins interfere.

[dirkformica]

/Hijack
What happens when a Magician with Astral Hazing astrally projects? Does the emanation stay at the body or does it follow the projecting mage?

[Draco18s]

/Hijack
What happens when a Magician with Astral Hazing astrally projects? Does the emanation stay at the body or does it follow the projecting mage?

Oooh...good question. Based on the fluff, I'd say it "goes astral" and follows him. It'd only mess up Astral Space (astral mages would encounter a background count, physical wouldn't unless they're astrally perceiving).

[toturi]

I think what they mean is that a character with gremlins who attempts to use a control console to a nuclear reactor, in an attempt to make it go critical would merely short out the control panel, thus screwing themselves.

The idea is that you can't interact with technology in a way where you intend to break it in such a way to be beneficial to you: no matter what you're trying to do, the gremlins interfere.

The idea is it doesn't matter what your character is actually trying to do, as long as the gremlins interfere, the result whatever it may be will be beneficial to your PC instead. The difficulty is lies in finding such a situation or engineering such.

[Neraph]

I must be missing something here... Negative Qualities are just that... NEGATIVE... You should not ever be able to turn the negative to a positive... if you want to go that route... buy off the negative quality, initiate a few times and get Geomancy, and then aspect yourself a positive BC aftarwards... you should not EVER be able to do so while the negative quality is in place...

Want to have a positive benefit from BC, craft it yourself with Geomancy, but don't buy the negative quality and then "aspect" it to a positivbe bonus... To this, I call foul...

Of Course... that is my 2 nuyen, but really, does this not smack anyone else as powergaming at its finest?

See, the thing is, you end up spending 99 karma (if you don't use initiatory ordeals or join an initiation group [not worth it]), so yeah, pretty much you're allowed to. Especially since you follow the RAW very closely.

Compare 99 karma to geomance it to your tradition to the 30 karma to remove it. You pay just over 3x the cost for a benefit. Sounds good to me.

Not to mention that now that you are a moving domain, you're now hunted. Or that someone could mess up the ritual. You mess up one ritual you have to start over. Just because after 99 karma you're able to start geomancing yourself doesn't mean that you'll succeed.

[Draco18s]

Not to mention that now that you are a moving domain, you're now hunted. Or that someone could mess up the ritual. You mess up one ritual you have to start over. Just because after 99 karma you're able to start geomancing yourself doesn't mean that you'll succeed.

You can't mess up. You'd have to critically glitch the ritual check in order to actually move backwards.

If someone else starts aspecting your domain too, then whoever scores more hits gets progress that month. I doubt it makes a difference as to who gets to 4 months first. The book doesn't say what happens when someone finishes aspecting it and the other person continues. I would assume that they'd get knocked back to 0, but....

[Neraph]

You can't mess up. You'd have to critically glitch the ritual check in order to actually move backwards.

If someone else starts aspecting your domain too, then whoever scores more hits gets progress that month. I doubt it makes a difference as to who gets to 4 months first. The book doesn't say what happens when someone finishes aspecting it and the other person continues. I would assume that they'd get knocked back to 0, but....

Excellent point. If you fail the test 1/month without critically glitching, you just stall progress. Thank you for challenging me on that point.

[Neraph]

See, the thing is, you end up spending 99 karma (if you don't use initiatory ordeals or join an initiation group [not worth it]), so yeah, pretty much you're allowed to. Especially since you follow the RAW very closely.

Compare 99 karma to geomance it to your tradition to the 30 karma to remove it. You pay just over 3x the cost for a benefit. Sounds good to me.

Not to mention that now that you are a moving domain, you're now hunted. Or that someone could mess up the ritual. You mess up one ritual you have to start over. Just because after 99 karma you're able to start geomancing yourself doesn't mean that you'll succeed.

My math was off.

Final, correct numbers are thus:

Initiate 2, Raise Magic from 6 to 8 = 104 karma.

If Ordeals are done = 99.

If Ordeals are done and you joined an Initiatory Group = 98.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My math was off.

Final, correct numbers are thus:

Initiate 2, Raise Magic from 6 to 8 = 104 karma.

If Ordeals are done = 99.

If Ordeals are done and you joined an Initiatory Group = 98.

Seems to me that your math is still off... only a Single point difference between Ordeals Only and Ordeals with a Group? Something does not scan correctly...

Initiate Twice: 13+16 = 29
Magic 6 to 8: 35+40 = 75
Total 104

Ordeal Costs: 11+13 (Discount of 5 Points) for a Total of 99 Karma...
Ordeal + Group Costs: 8+10 (Discount of 11 Points) for a Total of 93 Karma...

There you go...

And even though you are spending 3x Karma to obtain positive effect from a negative quality... it is still wrong, you should NEVER gain a positive benefit from a negative quality, kind of defeats the purpose of the negative quality don't you think?

You should purchase the Negative quality off first... if you still wanted the benefit of a rating 4 moveable background count... THEN you could find some way to create such though geomancy and initiation...

Just Saying...

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

You need to factor in the Karma to join a Group first.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You need to factor in the Karma to join a Group first.

Oooooops, Forgot about that....

[Stahlseele]

's okay, most people do.

[Neraph]

Yeah, I remembered the 5 karma from joining the group, but I didn't annotate it.

And even though you are spending 3x Karma to obtain positive effect from a negative quality... it is still wrong, you should NEVER gain a positive benefit from a negative quality, kind of defeats the purpose of the negative quality don't you think?

You should purchase the Negative quality off first... if you still wanted the benefit of a rating 4 moveable background count... THEN you could find some way to create such though geomancy and initiation...

Just Saying...

Keep the Faith

Except that, as I've shown, Geomancing Astral Hazing is completely legal by RAW, and even hinted at by RAI, and there currently exists no ability through Initiation to create a mobile Backround Count. It costs a whole lot of karma to pull this off, not to mention the time required. Also, it should be noted that opposing mages, from not only the Geo-As/Ha mage's own tradition, but others as well, now have perfect reason to capture the Geo-As/Ha and feed off his BC. Or they don't like the idea of it, thinking its "unnatural", and hiring Prime Runners to assassinate them. Or drones. Just because you have BC 4 and are very effective against other mages and spirits doesn't mean your neccessarily any better against drones, especially if you don't know they're there.

A sniper can still kill a mage before he even knows the sniper is there. It's really easy too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I remembered the 5 karma from joining the group, but I didn't annotate it.

Except that, as I've shown, Geomancing Astral Hazing is completely legal by RAW, and even hinted at by RAI, and there currently exists no ability through Initiation to create a mobile Backround Count. It costs a whole lot of karma to pull this off, not to mention the time required. Also, it should be noted that opposing mages, from not only the Geo-As/Ha mage's own tradition, but others as well, now have perfect reason to capture the Geo-As/Ha and feed off his BC. Or they don't like the idea of it, thinking its "unnatural", and hiring Prime Runners to assassinate them. Or drones. Just because you have BC 4 and are very effective against other mages and spirits doesn't mean your neccessarily any better against drones, especially if you don't know they're there.

A sniper can still kill a mage before he even knows the sniper is there. It's really easy too.

There is no doubt the Astrally Hazing character will become a massive pawn in everyones games... No doubt... It is just MY Opinion that the reasons for this should be story related... Turning a Negative Quality into a Positive Quality goes against everything that the Negative Quality stands for... Yes, you spend a lot of Karma to do so... but Still, it feels wrong...

And yes, It is extremely easy to kill a mage, or anyone for that matter, with a Sniper... It is not even a real challenge, assuming the Sniper is patient and competent...