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#1
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
In any discussion of proper Shadowrunner behaviour, inevitably two points come up; the idea that if you fire a gun, the mission is a failure, and the idea that if you render an enemy unconscious rather than dead that your life will be easier in the long run. Let's take a closer look at these ideas. I shall first address this tendency towards pacifism.
Several explanations are given for why it's a good idea to incapacitate rather than kill: it garners less enemies, it's the right thing to do, it achieves the same effect. "It's the right thing to do". Perhaps. Consider also that the right thing to do is to not actually be Shadowrunning in the first place. Let's make this very clear, Shadowrunners ruin lives. Joe SecGuard allowed the Face access to the building, failed to pick up on the falsified security passcode the Decker was using, and was completely blindsided by the Mage. It wasn't his fault? That's possible. It also makes no difference. If the run resulted in meaningful losses, odds are overwhelmingly that the guard will get heavily reprimanded, and it's not at all unlikely that he'll be fired. Even if he retains his job, his chances of promotion anytime in the next decade or so probably approach a Planck quantity. If other guards died, were fired, or otherwise were affected as a result of his actions (or even if not), you can bet his time at work isn't going to be too pleasant. You have ruined his life, and quite possibly that of his family, if any. The same applies to Billy Burnout the Corp Cyberdemon. Big Billy cost a lot, possibly millions, but he can't even protect against a couple of Shadowrunners. Unless he's an ultra high-end model, he's probably looking at early retirement. The kind where they take out all of the augmentations and don't put anything back in. "It garners less enemies". Consider: Jane SecGuard, husband to Bob Miscellaneous, with two kids (one twenty and at college, one sixteen), is killed in the line of duty. Who is going to be the enemy? Bob? The kids? In all likelihood, none of them have fired a weapon more dangerous than a taser, at least not outside of a shooting range. What are they going to do? They're probably law-abiding corporate citizens, without the remotest idea how to start looking for street contacts. The only way they'd have a description of the runners is if the corp has it and gives it to them, the latter part being extremely unlikely. Consider on the other hand what happens if Jane is merely tasered or gel-rounded into unconsciousness. She wakes up to reprimands, the scorn of her fellow employees, possibly termination. She goes home to face the family that she's no longer supporting, or that at least she has no meaningful chance of increasing her support to. She is not only motivated, but she actually has weapons training of some variety. She also has a decent chance of having seen the Runners she's after. At best, the situation is the same (no ability to effectively pursue revenge). At worst, the runners now have a motivated enemy with the ability to actually harm them on their tail. This applies doubly for guards without family. "It achieves the same effect". Any guard who is merely unconscious is one stimpatch away from coming after you again. A dead guard, or even one who's been patched up at twelve boxes of Physical, isn't going to come after you again. All it takes to restore a guard with ten boxes stun to the fight is a stimpatch. Now, on to the idea that a gun fired ends the Shadowrun: this one is at least vaguely more arguable. A gunshot does not mean a failed Shadowrun. However, except for circumstances in which you can be very assured of the shot remaining unheard, you should not fire until you're ready to leave. Even guards take time to respond. If the alarm goes off while you're shooting your way back out of the secret lab with barely two minutes between you and the door, there isn't going to be any meaningful human opposition in that time. That being said, know your target: sentry guns, containment doors, and some drones don't have that same delay. Regardless, in almost every run, there is a point at which opening up with the weaponry not only fails to harm but actually enhances the likelihood of undamaged survival. Obviously this point cannot be exploited in every run (especially those with uncertain opposition or those in which secrecy is a requirement), but with the exception of places capable of destroying you in under a minute regardless of where you are at the time or places with equipment such that you cannot escape them once they've gotten a lock on you, it will exist. I suppose I should also talk about the question of bystanders. I've got no problem with killing them, but remember not to let it distract you from your objective. Some Johnsons will look down on it as unprofessional, others will look at it as the height of professionalism (that is, as long as you're eliminating witnesses rather than actively hunting down ordinary people to kill). Those are the risks you take. This should mostly be a by-character decision. Remember, though, if an innocent bystander attacks you or can identify you, they're not an innocent bystander anymore. I'm most certainly not arguing that Runners should be utterly devoid of morals. No, the idea that I find absurd is that Runners both have morals and follow them. It's a pretty twisted morality (or one that revels in ignorance) that will be fine with 'Running. Your mileage may vary, but I've always found that it's a lot more fun to have a character who wouldn't think of killing innocent bystanders (say, a fourteen-year-old boy and his mother), but who, when faced with the situation, guns them down anyway because he was scared, didn't realize they weren't a threat, was afraid they'd identify him, whatever, rather than someone who just runs on past saying to himself "see how moral I am?" If we can move on from the idea that leaving witnesses and potential enemies around is "professional", I think we'll all be doing a lot better. ~J |
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#176
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 ![]() |
In an edition that this thread isn't about, and that I would have difficulty caring less about. That said, unless Knight Errant has also changed dramatically in SR4, they're slightly better-equipped but no more motivated. ~J My apologies, I forgot the edition tag. However, this could happen in SR3 too; if a corp underperforms, they can be replaced (if an only if it's an election year.) |
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#177
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 9-March 09 Member No.: 16,955 ![]() |
All this really boils down to what flavour of SR you prefer.
In SR1 (and even 2), the game really was set up to be the runners as the good guy taking on the evil corps/govt's which had misled the public into believing the corps/govt's were only looking out for the opublic's best interests, when in fact it was the exact opposite. That started to blur with the fiction, which seemed to show the runners as criminals who, at best, caught a dose of morality only after being in the biz a very long time and having some sort of personal epiphany about right and wrong (even if only a small one) and trying to do some good for once (usually with all sorts of nasty personal consequences). If you are playing the Shadowrun according to the themes of the early days of the game, then Good Guys vs Evil Corps is dead on correct. If you are playing Shadowrun in late 2nd/early 3rd onwards, then your runners are the professional criminals, the gentlemen assassins, independent organized crime contractors, etc. Regardless of which style you play, as long as everyone is having fun, all is well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#178
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 616 Joined: 30-April 07 From: Edge of the Redmond Barrens, Borderline NAN. Runnin' the border for literal milk runs. Member No.: 11,565 ![]() |
Criminal and bad guy aren't always the same thing.
Pink mohawks fighting the man, professional criminals doing the man's dirty work, professional criminals using thier position to fight the man, pink or professional just trying to make ends meet in a dark and dungy world... Firefly. Boondock Saints. Matrix. Smokin Aces. Transporter. Dozens and dozens of different comics. Threads have been done to death with the themes, but they all can work for Shadowrun. Just depends on how you want to paint the world, and how the players want to interpret your art. |
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#179
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 ![]() |
I stated reputation as a possible motive. This would mean that for role-playing purposes, your character wants a reputation as someone that only kills when necessary. I cannot see any way that reducing enemy casualties will be bad for your reputation (assuming that you succeed at the mission). This could actually be a point in your favor when the Johnson is looking for a team. "Hummm team 1 has a good rep, never failed a mission, team 2 never failed a mission either, but they are known for killing a lot of people, including women and children. Ok, anytime I need lots of bodies I call team 2." In the above case, if the Johnson did not want the runners to know that he worked for the same corp (he is concealing his own failure for instance). He might not want his own people to be massacred. If he specifies this in the contract, people will guess what he is doing, and likely why. Additionally, team 2 is going to charge a whole bunch for a non-lethal mission. Our first campaign had a team that didn't do wetwork as a matter of principle, but was very much fond of overkill and shot down just about everyone who was in the way, or looked like he might be thinking about getting in their way at some time in the future. Johnsons started to hire them for any mission that got them close to the real target - data steal, sabotage, whatever - and just watched the desired assassination be covered up as collateral damage with no one the wiser. |
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#180
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 616 Joined: 30-April 07 From: Edge of the Redmond Barrens, Borderline NAN. Runnin' the border for literal milk runs. Member No.: 11,565 ![]() |
Our first campaign had a team that didn't do wetwork as a matter of principle, but was very much fond of overkill and shot down just about everyone who was in the way, or looked like he might be thinking about getting in their way at some time in the future. Johnsons started to hire them for any mission that got them close to the real target - data steal, sabotage, whatever - and just watched the desired assassination be covered up as collateral damage with no one the wiser. Mmmm, Eversor Assassin meets Jaynian philosophy.* *"I'll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight… If he bothers me, or if there's a woman… Or if I'm gettin' paid. Mostly only when I'm gettin' paid." |
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#181
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 ![]() |
I do not follow the "leave no witnesses" reason though, unless the runners physically destroy the cybereyes/contacts of the dead people as well anything a guard sees will have been recorded. And destroying all that footage takes a lot.
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#182
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 ![]() |
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#183
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Shooting Target ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 ![]() |
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#184
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 ![]() |
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#185
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 ![]() |
Am I wrong in thinking balaclava's are still commercially available in 207x?
In the end this is a discussion of play style preference. As always I say do what you find fun, no matter how realistic it is or isn't. After all the point of the game is fun. |
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#186
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 ![]() |
We handwave the masking stuff away as "It is assumed you take the usual precautions to avoid getting identified".
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#187
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Given that memory is basically free, why wouldn't it be recorded? Especially by a security guard on duty? I cannot think of any reason. Memory isn't basically free, though. Headware Memory for taking video footage is ¥150/minute, which gets expensive fast. Offline storage is cheaper at 20¥/MP, but then you have the issue of having to continuously transfer it out to the storage. There's also the fact that you don't just need the guard to have cybereyes, they need an eye camera as well. Last but not least, eye camera footage only tells you what the guard saw, not what the guard heard, thought, figured out, or other possibly compromising details that they could spill the beans on. ~J |
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#188
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,328 Joined: 2-April 07 From: The Center of the Universe Member No.: 11,360 ![]() |
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#189
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 ![]() |
What is that Headware Memory thing you are speaking of, Kagetenshi? Sounds ancient. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
And destroying all that footage takes a lot. Just a HERF Gun or EMP Grenade, followed by applying Läel. |
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#190
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
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#191
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 17,812 ![]() |
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#192
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 ![]() |
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#193
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
FFBA is basically a bullet-proof diving suit. With goggles or shades, the amount of exposure any competent non-face runner should expect to show is less than a centimeter of skin. And the face, of course should be in disguise. If you think witnesses are a problem, maybe you're the problem. Maybe you shouldn't have taken that Distinctive Style flaw which requires you to constantly be in costume even while you're commuting murder. Other than that, what's your excuse?
But, I wouldn't worry too much about getting good and lethal. If Johnson thinks that you're shy on excessive force, he might just think that means he doesn't have to pay you. Unless, of course, it's the reason he uses your services to begin with. Fact is, Mr. J is paying, so you handle things how he wants them handled. If he says he doesn't care about corpses, that means he expects corpses. And it's always a good move to provide Mr. J with what he expects, at least on the surface of things. |
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#194
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
FFBA is basically a bullet-proof diving suit. With goggles or shades, the amount of exposure any competent non-face runner should expect to show is less than a centimeter of skin. And the face, of course should be in disguise. If you think witnesses are a problem, maybe you're the problem. Maybe you shouldn't have taken that Distinctive Style flaw which requires you to constantly be in costume even while you're commuting murder. Other than that, what's your excuse? The fact that it's easier to shoot someone in the face than it is to be sure no one shouted any identifiable information, your team doesn't have a distinctive set of physical builds, your team doesn't use any distinctive equipment, so on and soforth. This is before we get to information like "which direction did they go?" or, god forbid, the possibility that one of the bystanders is capable of Assensing; it's about as easy to just kill them and move on than to waste time trying to screen for the last one. ~J |
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#195
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
If a bystander is capable of assensing he's probably capable of conjuring.
But my basic principle is that everything comes around. If the team goes through and shoots everything that moves they shouldn't be too upset when the way Lone Star asks them to surrender is a missile through their back window. |
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#196
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,705 Joined: 5-October 09 From: You are in a clearing Member No.: 17,722 ![]() |
Yeah, the concept of escalation def applies. It's sort of like the trench warfare in WWI. Neither side would really try and kill the other unless directly ordered or unless it was in retaliation. Instead, they would fire artillery at the same spot every day just to show that, if they wanted to, they could kill you. I like to imagine that a corp, if it sees biomonitors start showing up "unconscious guard" they'll issue pursue and capture orders, but if they start getting "corpsified guard" warnings, they'll immediately authorize full on deadly force.
But deadly force is usually way more fun. |
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#197
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
But my basic principle is that everything comes around. If the team goes through and shoots everything that moves they shouldn't be too upset when the way Lone Star asks them to surrender is a missile through their back window. That's Lone Star's preferred technique anyway. Regardless, I've covered above how being processed through the legal system is equivalent to death for many character types. Sithney: you're talking about emotional decisions made at the lowest levels in the absence of clear ways for superiors to quash that sort of behaviour. I don't see any reason why corporate policy would be any better for a runner using nonlethal force. ~J |
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#198
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
That's Lone Star's preferred technique anyway. Regardless, I've covered above how being processed through the legal system is equivalent to death for many character types. So how is that in your world trigger happy Lone Star can't manage to use their dozens of MMG armed drones to shoot a dozen gangers committing violent crimes against voters on a downtown expressway? And no, as they can't interrogate chunky salsa. While they can certainly get a lot of useful evidence that isn't nearly as effective as a runner naming names. And almost as important, Lone Star doesn't get paid for keeping in custody guys turned into cooked strawberry jelly. |
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#199
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 304 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 17,812 ![]() |
So how is that in your world trigger happy Lone Star can't manage to use their dozens of MMG armed drones to shoot a dozen gangers committing violent crimes against voters on a downtown expressway? And no, as they can't interrogate chunky salsa. While they can certainly get a lot of useful evidence that isn't nearly as effective as a runner naming names. And almost as important, Lone Star doesn't get paid for keeping in custody guys turned into cooked strawberry jelly. 1) I'm reasonably certain that he was mostly joking ( about the missiles anyway) - although if you do have to go take care of a problem you may as well do it the fun way, eh? 2) Lonestar doesn't care about a couple dozen gangers who will be gone by morning. anyone out at the hours they operate isn't worth the assets to protect; and on the rare occasion that they are it's better use of resources to provide an escort detail than it is to clear out the gangers every night. more to the point, in sr3 both the Ancients and the Spikes are described as having numerous anti-vehicular weapons and other mil-spec toys - more than enough of them to make any patrol detail think twice about trying to make a bust. (they've toned it down a bit in sr4 apparently) 3) "He resisted arrest, I swear!" - runners are so cybered and twitched up (did anyone besides the face ever install an off switch on their wired reflexes?) or even worse, magicked up that they're calling the HTR team as soon as they get eyes on your chrome, and probably 80% of 'runners are never going quietly anyway (prison might as well be a death sentence for a runner) and Lonestar knows this too. Even if you did go quiet, the vast majority of you don't have SINs so if they "disappear" your organs out the back door before booking, there's no recourse anyway - you don't have rights; and that means your estate doesn't have either. |
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#200
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 ![]() |
more to the point, in sr3 both the Ancients and the Spikes are described as having numerous anti-vehicular weapons and other mil-spec toys - more than enough of them to make any patrol detail think twice about trying to make a bust. (they've toned it down a bit in sr4 apparently) I don't care how tough a biker you are, a few strato-9's a km away are going to result in you becoming dog meat in under 6 seconds after they decide you are hostile. And a couple of Strato-9s (each with the included MMG and 500 rounds of ammo) are one of the main ways Lone Star patrols. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th July 2025 - 01:58 AM |
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