Teach me to face., Or what the heck do I\you do with social character? Options

[sn0mm1s]

First, how is "just rolling Con" any different than, say, "just rolling Pistols" or any other skill? And why would they just be using Con anyway? If you have a player with a Face character who's only rolling dice, please see my first post in this thread.

It isn't any different... which is exactly my point. I don't expect some pistols/demolition expert to waltz into a heavily secured area solo either.

Second, why on earth would you think no one would notice a Face doing that? A Face's entire point of being is to be noticed. By as many people as possible, usually. The whole point is that, at the very least, they're providing a distraction for the rest of their team if not outright trying to seduce, befriend, con, or fool their way past sentient beings and into secure areas. They don't rely on guns or stealth. Those are all secondary if not tertiary concerns. And like any other type of character, they don't use just one tactic. If anything, a good Face has to rely on a wide array of tactics, tricks, and gadgets to get the job done. Probably more so than most.

No, there is a difference between a face talking their way past a checkpoint vs. trying to fool technological/magical security devices.

And finally, despite your belief to the contrary, I'd argue that a Face is the one character type that could solo most runs in the game.

No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

[nezumi]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

[KnightRunner]

No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

Ok gonna call BS here. Exactly what would any other archetype do about this extreme security? Without anybody noticing? Is your point that you can come up with a security system that no one can get into?

Just for the record there are a number of ways a face can get around even the spirit. Without going directly to the Adept or mystic adept, who makes great face and can handle spirits. But the easiest way is to go after the summoner. They gotta be somewhere and have a weak spot.

Is he a family man? "Dismiss the spirit at exactly 9pm or the family Chia pet gets it."

How about a bribe. "Good money, You want in?"

[sn0mm1s]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

Getting past the gate is a far cry from delving into the bowels of Area 51.

[sn0mm1s]

Ok gonna call BS here. Exactly what would any other archetype do about this extreme security? Without anybody noticing? Is your point that you can come up with a security system that no one can get into?

Just for the record there are a number of ways a face can get around even the spirit. Without going directly to the Adept or mystic adept, who makes great face and can handle spirits. But the easiest way is to go after the summoner. They gotta be somewhere and have a weak spot.

Is he a family man? "Dismiss the spirit at exactly 9pm or the family Chia pet gets it."

How about a bribe. "Good money, You want in?"

Sure, but that isn't using face skills and it isn't going solo - and there are plenty of ways around that spirit if you brought a mage along with you - which again is my point. Also, summoning a spirit isn't *extreme* security there are Watcher spirits whose sole purpose is to do exactly that. Are you saying some uber high paid corporate research mage wouldn't be smart enough or have the foresight to add his own security measures and you could just bribe him? I mean, if you have the info on said mage *and* the money to bribe him.. why did the Johnson even bother with you... why not just go directly to the mage if he could be bought? It is likely that you might not even know that the spirit exists. Even an adept or mystic adept won't be a great face if they have to focus on getting rid of high force spirits.

[Ol' Scratch]

No way, not a high security building with a good deal of technological and magical security. There is no conning a high force possession spirit guarding a lab who is only allowing a particular spell with a particular astral *signature* to enter. You can't even communicate with it unless you are astrally perceiving until it possesses something... which will be you.

I didn't say they could do everything. I said, of all the character types in the game, they have the best shot of accomplishing anything. They're easily the most diverse and universally useful archetypes around. Any group performing any kind of run will benefit by having one on their team. You can't say that about most other archetypes.

[sn0mm1s]

I didn't say they could do everything. I said, of all the character types in the game, they have the best shot of accomplishing anything. They're easily the most diverse and universally useful archetypes around. Any group performing any kind of run will benefit by having one on their team. You can't say that about most other archetypes.

TBH, I would say a mage is way more useful. Many of the mage spells can be abused as can spirits. The mage can be as good at reconnaissance as fighting. The next best would be a hacker/technomancer who can also do some amazing things. Then I would go with the face. Then the muscle. Then the rigger. All serve their purpose. People just made it sound like you can just Ocean's 11 everything... when that is clearly not the case.

[KnightRunner]

Sure, but that isn't using face skills and it isn't going solo - and there are plenty of ways around that spirit if you brought a mage along with you - which again is my point. Also, summoning a spirit isn't *extreme* security there are Watcher spirits whose sole purpose is to do exactly that. Are you saying some uber high paid corporate research mage wouldn't be smart enough or have the foresight to add his own security measures and you could just bribe him? I mean, if you have the info on said mage *and* the money to bribe him.. why did the Johnson even bother with you... why not just go directly to the mage if he could be bought? It is likely that you might not even know that the spirit exists. Even an adept or mystic adept won't be a great face if they have to focus on getting rid of high force spirits.

umm what? I never said anything about anyone other than a face. I was pointing out that adepts and mystic adepts make great faces. Facial Sculpt and kenesics.

No the research mage might not do such things as he is supposed to be researching things and not providing security. If working for a corp, he would live with corp security and not add his own because thats how corps work. Who knows who the boss is going to send for a report or to observe. Let one of your bosses assistants get toasted by a spirit and see how your career goes. Not to mention that such things cost money.

As to why you were if you had those resources. Well first off you were hired for the same reason corps with endless money hire shadowrunners. Deniability. not because they could not do it themselves. Because they do not want anyone else to know. Second of all, part of being a shadowrunner is to find that kind of information and use it to your advantage.

[KnightRunner]

... when that is clearly not the case.

You have yet to evidence this.

[fistandantilus4....]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

Being that guy quiet a lot, I respectfully disagree. Granted, there certainly are people that are like that, but they are, how to say this nicely ... weak willed. Some can be tricked sure, but there are very clear and concise requirements for access to a military installation, even for getting in the front door.

The sentry on a post can deny access to anyone save the CO of that installation. I've personally refused access to a 3 star admiral because he didn't have the proper creds on him. If he'd had a problem with it, then he could have called the CO. Then it's the COs call, not mine. But guess what? The CO or his rep (much more likely, probably the OoD) would have to come down and personally allow access. That's true even if it's an E-1 denying access.

At the basic entry at least, you're a lot better off making a good forgery of proper creds, and looking the part.

For a Face trying to make access to someplace you're not supposed to be, follow two basic rules:
1)Look like you know where you're going.
2) Look like you belong.

Having other props (like fake badges, and good ones) are important, but secondary. Finding the kinks in the security, especially the people that are susceptible/gullible, is a good way to go.

Then convincing people in general, whole 'nother approach.

[tete]

Getting past the gate is a far cry from delving into the bowels of Area 51.

Sure, but if you hang out at the Las Vegas airport you can watch the plane for Area 51 come and go (Its unmarked but pretty obvious). People get on and off and (shocker) those people have been inside the bowls of Area 51. All you have to do is manipulate them. Thats why Security Clearences require them to talk to your friends, family, have a good credit rating, pollygraph, etc. They want you to not be easily bribable.

Social Engineering is THE threat in security areas. I have to take a social engineering test every year for my clearance requirements (and my clearance aint that high).

[edit] I also think your getting hung up on the rules. A Face character is more than a high charisma high con guy. Hes the front man of the party. A street sam isnt only going to have gun skills, hes going to have stealth and other things to. The Face is just a way to say "I try to use my charm and disguise more than guns" the Shaman/Face as been a core archtype for years.

[Ol' Scratch]

TBH, I would say a mage is way more useful. Many of the mage spells can be abused as can spirits. The mage can be as good at reconnaissance as fighting. The next best would be a hacker/technomancer who can also do some amazing things. Then I would go with the face. Then the muscle. Then the rigger. All serve their purpose.

Yes, and put the mage in an area with a high background count (say, a rare run that goes up in orbit) or a heavily warded area and he's suddenly a lot less useful. The Face? Still every bit as useful. Even in a physical conflict, most decent Faces can hold their own courtesy of the fact that it doesn't take too many BPs to be a badass Face. Their talents work equally well in the Matrix, against spirits (despite your assumptions to the contrary) and other astral or magical threats, and in situations where magic and Matrix tricks are a very bad idea. For instance, it's easy for a dual-natured bodyguard to see you casting a Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions spell on a Johnson. Not so much a Face using his social skills.

People just made it sound like you can just Ocean's 11 everything... when that is clearly not the case.

You can't put together a plan that uses everyone's skills to the best of their abilities? I thought that was the whole point of most runs.

[sn0mm1s]

umm what? I never said anything about anyone other than a face. I was pointing out that adepts and mystic adepts make great faces. Facial Sculpt and kenesics.

So let me get this straight. You as a face, threaten some mage with no muscle behind you when he can mentally command one of his bound spirits to possess you on the spot? Also, Facial Sculpt is a horrible power - it seems great at first until you realize that as an elf or human you are pretty much limited to looking like elves or humans. As an ork you can pass for an ork but not a troll because you are too small and not anything else because of your skin color (you need to add Melanin Control) and even then you would probably not look like the person you were trying to impersonate... unless that person was an ork. Dwarves? Too small. Trolls? Too big. And you still can't get past DNA/retinal scans with those powers. You are better off buying the face paste. Why waste 2 power points on something fancy makeup can do? Kinesics is awesome for a face as is Commanding Voice and Heightened Concentration (which effectively eliminates the negative dice pool modifiers of suspicious/hostile NPCs).

No the research mage might not do such things as he is supposed to be researching things and not providing security. If working for a corp, he would live with corp security and not add his own because thats how corps work. Who knows who the boss is going to send for a report or to observe. Let one of your bosses assistants get toasted by a spirit and see how your career goes. Not to mention that such things cost money.

Really? You don't password protect your computer at work? Or lock desk drawers? The beauty of a possession spirit is that it doesn't hurt you to subdue you. It just takes you over and walks you to security.

As to why you were if you had those resources. Well first off you were hired for the same reason corps with endless money hire shadowrunners. Deniability. not because they could not do it themselves. Because they do not want anyone else to know. Second of all, part of being a shadowrunner is to find that kind of information and use it to your advantage.

One degree of separation isn't that great. Are all your runners housing cyanide capsules in their tooth compartments so they don't give up information on the person that hired them? Or turn on them? Deniability is all well and good, but again, if you can bribe the mage outright then your Johnson really doesn't need the runners. Runners are just as much a liability as they are an asset depending on how things play out.

[sn0mm1s]

Yes, and put the mage in an area with a high background count (say, a rare run that goes up in orbit) or a heavily warded area and he's suddenly a lot less useful. The Face? Still every bit as useful. Even in a physical conflict, most decent Faces can hold their own courtesy of the fact that it doesn't take too many BPs to be a badass Face. Their talents work equally well in the Matrix, against spirits (despite your assumptions to the contrary) and other astral or magical threats, and in situations where magic and Matrix tricks are a very bad idea. For instance, it's easy for a dual-natured bodyguard to see you casting a Control Thoughts/Emotions/Actions spell on a Johnson. Not so much a Face using his social skills.


You can't put together a plan that uses everyone's skills to the best of their abilities? I thought that was the whole point of most runs.

An adept face would have similar difficulties. Also, I would tend to disagree that it doesn't take a lot of BP to build a bad ass face - at least the ones described in this thread.

There are a lot of different scenarios here. A mundane face will never be as good as an adept face. A mundane face can't even communicate with a possession spirit. I understand that there are places where a mage will be less useful than a mundane face due to background count... but do you really think that that would be the case if you were raiding some high security corp building? Look, again, my point is that a face, no matter how good, doesn't just waltz into wherever "social engineering" his way solo - which is what many people suggest is possible and even highly probable.

[KnightRunner]

So let me get this straight. You as a face, threaten some mage with no muscle behind you when he can mentally command one of his bound spirits to possess you on the spot?

Umm yeah, why not. the whole point is to have something that threatens them. No one said it has to be your ability to beat them in a straight up fight. Just something that they care about more than their Pet Project.

Really? You don't password protect your computer at work? Or lock desk drawers? The beauty of a possession spirit is that it doesn't hurt you to subdue you. It just takes you over and walks you to security.

Yes to the password, no to the locking. The locking is strictly against policy for our company as they require access at all times. Our security team must be able to get into anything at any time. Oh and we are required to log our password with out IT department. Most people just let IT assign them a password. Welcome to corporate life.

Oh and when the nice spirit walks me to security I use my Face skills to convince them that it is all a big misunderstanding.

One degree of separation isn't that great. Are all your runners housing cyanide capsules in their tooth compartments so they don't give up information on the person that hired them? Or turn on them? Deniability is all well and good, but again, if you can bribe the mage outright then your Johnson really doesn't need the runners. Runners are just as much a liability as they are an asset depending on how things play out.

Umm so I ask again, why does anyone ever use shaodowruners? You realize that you are arguing against the entire point of the game?

What Runners Do
Shadowrunners commit crimes, usually for money. When a corporation or other sponsor
needs someone to do dirty work, they look to the shadows. As “deniable assets,” runners
make advantageous—and expendable—tools.
SR4A p16

[KnightRunner]

Look, again, my point is that a face, no matter how good, doesn't just waltz into wherever "social engineering" his way solo - which is what many people suggest is possible and even highly probable.

Never suggested probability. That is a function of the Dicepools and thresholds.

I can give numerous in-game and Real life examples where social engineering has allowed someone into highly secure areas. Indeed others already have. So "not possible" is easily disproved.

[sn0mm1s]

Oh and when the nice spirit walks me to security I use my Face skills to convince them that it is all a big misunderstanding.

You *can't* talk to the spirit. It is *possessing* you. It is walking you to security with your own body.

I understand the point of Shadowrun but in general Shadowrunners aren't hired because of deniability... they are hired because of their expendability or possibly their specialized skillset.

[KnightRunner]

Being that guy quiet a lot, I respectfully disagree. Granted, there certainly are people that are like that, but they are, how to say this nicely ... weak willed. Some can be tricked sure, but there are very clear and concise requirements for access to a military installation, even for getting in the front door.

The sentry on a post can deny access to anyone save the CO of that installation. I've personally refused access to a 3 star admiral because he didn't have the proper creds on him. If he'd had a problem with it, then he could have called the CO. Then it's the COs call, not mine. But guess what? The CO or his rep (much more likely, probably the OoD) would have to come down and personally allow access. That's true even if it's an E-1 denying access.

At the basic entry at least, you're a lot better off making a good forgery of proper creds, and looking the part.

For a Face trying to make access to someplace you're not supposed to be, follow two basic rules:
1)Look like you know where you're going.
2) Look like you belong.

Having other props (like fake badges, and good ones) are important, but secondary. Finding the kinks in the security, especially the people that are susceptible/gullible, is a good way to go.

Then convincing people in general, whole 'nother approach.

The trick to this situation is knowing what con to pull and when. That's what great faces do. If pulling the "I am a Colonel so let me in" act, you need to make sure you are gonna pull it on someone likely to succumb to it. Once again the face has a number of options. Charm a drunk GI into telling you all about how guard duty works. Or just seduce them into sneaking you inside. Find something on them, BTL habit maybe? So when the "Colonel" shows up one of the guards says, "Umm yeah the CO called and said the Colonel was on the way." Lot of possibilities.

[KnightRunner]

You *can't* talk to the spirit. It is *possessing* you. It is walking you to security with your own body.

Who said anything about talking to the spirit. You said all it does is walk you to security. You talk to the nice security guards it leads you to.

I understand the point of Shadowrun but in general Shadowrunners aren't hired because of deniability... they are hired because of their expendability or possibly their specialized skillset.

And umm so you are saying the designers just threw that in for the heck of it? You mean that the paragraph they used to summarize the entire existence of shadowrunners and essence of the game is incorrect? They got it wrong?

[kzt]

Actually, it's been noted that by and large, military installations and the like are MORE vulnerable to social engineering. The people who guard the gates have had it ground into them to always, unquestioningly, and immediately obey a superior officer. If you successfully manage to impersonate a superior officer, you can generally get away with a lot, up to the point where a higher-ranking superior officer has made a countermanding order.

No.

In high security sites it doesn't work. You walk across the yellow line and you'll get shot.

[tete]

Never suggested probability. That is a function of the Dicepools and thresholds.

I can give numerous in-game and Real life examples where social engineering has allowed someone into highly secure areas.

Would one happen to have happen in 2000, involve one guy, a janitors uniform, one of the biggest banks in the US, a dreamcast, and about 8 billion dollars? That one is my favorite.

In high security sites it doesn't work. You walk across the yellow line and you'll get shot.

I think you misunderstood nezumi. I believe its assumed people are allowed in the room.

[sn0mm1s]

Who said anything about talking to the spirit. You said all it does is walk you to security. You talk to the nice security guards it leads you to.

And umm so you are saying the designers just threw that in for the heck of it? You mean that the paragraph they used to summarize the entire existence of shadowrunners and essence of the game is incorrect? They got it wrong?

Ha. Right after the spirit explains what happened? They just let you go?

And yes, the designers did get the deniability part wrong with the way they designed the game. It is fluff, but not logical. When everything in the world can be hacked and traced and drones the size of insects can follow someone unknowingly and spirits can follow someone unknowingly and magic can control you etc. etc. deniability isn't really a logical reason for hiring someone. This is especially true when runners may need to choose between loyalty and death or giving up what they know of their employer.

[Matsci]

Ha. Right after the spirit explains what happened? They just let you go?

Yes you say " I'm Mr. StolenID from Internal Secuirty, and I need to talk to Dr. Y about his unathorized additions to security."

[KnightRunner]

And yes, the designers did get the deniability part wrong with the way they designed the game. It is fluff, but not logical. When everything in the world can be hacked and traced and drones the size of insects can follow someone unknowingly and spirits can follow someone unknowingly and magic can control you etc. etc. deniability isn't really a logical reason for hiring someone. This is especially true when runners may need to choose between loyalty and death or giving up what they know of their employer.

Ok I am done if you are gonna argue that the designers are wrong. By virtue of the fact that they created the game, they simply CAN NOT be wrong. What they say goes. It is their playground, their rules. They get to design game concepts. I think you may be blurring the line between reality and fantasy if you think otherwise.

[tagz]

I agree that social skills are definately some of the most useful skills in the game. They can do so much more then just get you better gear for less.

That said though, there are limits. So somebody buys into your con, that doesn't mean things automatically go your way. Maybe I can convince an Ares guard that I'm in fact Damien Knight, but he might be under orders to not allow ANYONE without proper ID, DNA, and retinal scan, even Damien Knight. These orders are likely as spells and tech can create pretty convincing disguises.

So that situation might go something like this.
Face: "Let me in."
Guard: "Sorry, restricted access."
Face "Don't you recognize me, son, I'm Damien Knight. Now open this door immediately." Makes a con roll. Gets 7 hits lets say.
Guard gets 2 hits: "Oh, I'm terribly sorry sir, but I'm not allowed to let anyone, even you, without proper identification. I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience sir." He totally buys the lie but it doesn't mean he's a mental slave, he just acts on the lie as if it were true.

I've seen too many people act like a successful con roll makes everyone do what they say. It just makes them believe you. So the real trick is to know when a lie will be enough and when you'll need more to back it up. Maybe more social skills will work, maybe you'll need to forge an ID badge.