CGL Speculation #8, Put on your asbestos underwear Options

[Bob Lord of Evil]

These are still products living under the shadow of the former freelancers work, most particularly when the accusations of copy/paste are flying about.
Edit: Corrected, based off Jason's statement.

Mark Twain said, "The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might."

[deek]

Oh, I'm sure that the former freelancers can continue to make claims on some ideas for many more books to come. I mean, I would expect in such a small freelance pool as this has been, that there have been a lot of discussions on a myriad of topics.

The ones that are left, get to finish writing.

It only takes one person to suggest the work is copied to cast a shadow. If I were in Bobby's shoes, I would distance myself from Shadowrun and make a name for myself writing for something else. Or perhaps waiting it out until different management is in charge wanting to leverage his knowledge again.

[Ancient History]

I'd like to clarify that there is exactly one instance - the Mitsuhama profile - which I feel was actually copied, and even that was altered and expanded. Jason (I really presume it was Jason, since I don't see Brandie ever knowingly doing this) left enough behind that it was pretty obvious it was based on my original profile. I'm not accusing anybody of plagiarism, I'm accusing them of very sloppy editing. I know why it was done, I just don't know why such a hash was made out of it that I can still recognize it as what I wrote.

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Oh, I'm sure that the former freelancers can continue to make claims on some ideas for many more books to come. I mean, I would expect in such a small freelance pool as this has been, that there have been a lot of discussions on a myriad of topics.

The ones that are left, get to finish writing.

It only takes one person to suggest the work is copied to cast a shadow. If I were in Bobby's shoes, I would distance myself from Shadowrun and make a name for myself writing for something else. Or perhaps waiting it out until different management is in charge wanting to leverage his knowledge again.

A very reasonable line of thought.

It isn't like he couldn't start up an e-publishing company and come out with his very own game system and run it how he sees fit. Better to channel one's energies into something productive instead of letting frustration fester.

[Fuchs]

The question is not what he can and can't do, it's whether or not there was sloppy editing. Trying to make it personal won't change that.

[Catadmin]

I'd like to clarify that there is exactly one instance - the Mitsuhama profile - which I feel was actually copied, and even that was altered and expanded. Jason (I really presume it was Jason, since I don't see Brandie ever knowingly doing this) left enough behind that it was pretty obvious it was based on my original profile. I'm not accusing anybody of plagiarism, I'm accusing them of very sloppy editing. I know why it was done, I just don't know why such a hash was made out of it that I can still recognize it as what I wrote.

Okay, final post on this specific issue. Let me make myself absolutely clear.

While the profile did indeed go through the editing process by SEVERAL people, *I* am the one who wrote it.

Quit dragging my work into your personal feud with Jason.

EDIT: If you'd actually given me any time to respond to your accusations before you posted, you wouldn't be beating a dead horse that doesn't exist.

[Ancient History]

Okay, if you wrote it and not Jason, then the parallels are just bizarre.

[/edit] I mean, you've seen the side-by-side comparison, right? You can understand why I would see that and go "Well, looks like Jason missed a spot." I know why I made those changes in the first place, I just don't know why you...waitaminute. You got that from the wiki, didn'tcha? And I didn't copy that to the wiki, but somebody could have copied it from my draft to the wiki. Hmm.

[Fuchs]

Okay, if you wrote it and not Jason, then the parallels are just bizarre.

[/edit] I mean, you've seen the side-by-side comparison, right? You can understand why I would see that and go "Well, looks like Jason missed a spot." I know why I made those changes in the first place, I just don't know why you...waitaminute. You got that from the wiki, didn'tcha? And I didn't copy that to the wiki, but somebody could have copied it from my draft to the wiki. Hmm.

Copied from a copy?

[Dr.Rockso]

http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php?title=...;action=history

I don't see any recent revisions. But I have heard that the wiki could be doing better, maintenance wise.

[deek]

I guess I'm confused. Why wouldn't the profile of the same company look similar, almost identical no matter who was doing the writing? You have the same derived sources and those aren't going to change...its not like this stuff is a bunch of fiction that was copied, these are kind of like Shadowrun facts, are they not?

[Fuchs]

I guess I'm confused. Why wouldn't the profile of the same company look similar, almost identical no matter who was doing the writing? You have the same derived sources and those aren't going to change...its not like this stuff is a bunch of fiction that was copied, these are kind of like Shadowrun facts, are they not?

AH mentioned that he invented subdivisions which have not been mentioned before. And those seem to be present in the "header", but not the (rewritten) actual text entry.

[Ancient History]

I guess I'm confused. Why wouldn't the profile of the same company look similar, almost identical no matter who was doing the writing? You have the same derived sources and those aren't going to change...its not like this stuff is a bunch of fiction that was copied, these are kind of like Shadowrun facts, are they not?

Because some of those changes were not derived directly from previous sources. This is the heart of the issue. Stuff like the percentage ownership of MCT that Toshiro Mitsuhama has are understandable - we were following the same plot logic, the math worked out the same. The slogan and the major divisions are braintwisters though.

For reference, we're not talking about the public wiki (well, at least I'm not), we're talking about the freelancer wiki, which is not public.

[Demonseed Elite]

http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php?title=...;action=history

I don't see any recent revisions. But I have heard that the wiki could be doing better, maintenance wise.

There's a freelancer wiki. Or at least there used to be.

[lehesu]

I'm just not convinced that it couldn't possibly be a case of convergent (parallel?) development.

[Dr.Rockso]

Open foot. Insert mouth. Completely slipped my mind. Too eager to help, i suppose....

[Fuchs]

I'm just not convinced that it couldn't possibly be a case of convergent (parallel?) development.

Past a certain point, coincidence becomes too unlikely.

[JM Hardy]

I've spent part of the day looking at it, and here's what happened: Bobby's version of the Mitsuhama chapter had already been laid out before he terminated his contracts. When the new material was sent to layout, some of the material in the Corporate Profile box was not omitted that should have been.

The Corporate Divisions paragraph has been removed from from the electronic versions currently on sale. It will not be in the printed versions. If you bought the PDF already, you should be able to get a free updated version.

Jason H.

[otakusensei]

I'm just not convinced that it couldn't possibly be a case of convergent (parallel?) development.

Not word for word. Even the order of the sections are the same. If Catadmin didn't have AH's docs on hand and opened them at some point, the likelyhood of the finished product including the same sections in the same order are astounding. Assuming that he had read them at some point, it's still doesn't look good.

Not a wholesale copy job, but not a clean break from AH's material either. The whole thing wouldn't stand in a court of law, but it doesn't look very good on Jason and IMR. Of course, that's a shit pile a mile high at this point so you might just be able to make this nugget out at the top if you use some binoculars.

[Fuchs]

I just wonder why such stuff happens when AH did all he could to prevent it. And why some people still try to blame him.

[lehesu]

I just wonder why such stuff happens when AH did all he could to prevent it. And why some people still try to blame him.

His use of the forums to air grievances best discuseed in private might have something to do with it.

[Fuchs]

His use of the forums to air grievances best discuseed in private might have something to do with it.

Transparency is a good thing. It prevents people from putting too much blame on the innocent. And others from simply ignoring said grievances.

[lehesu]

Transparency is a good thing. It prevents people from putting too much blame on the innocent. And others from simply ignoring said grievances.

Suffice it to say that I find transparency a poor excuse for being too wrapped up in your own tragedy to act with decorum.

[Ancient History]

I've spent part of the day looking at it, and here's what happened: Bobby's version of the Mitsuhama chapter had already been laid out before he terminated his contracts. When the new material was sent to layout, some of the material in the Corporate Profile box was not omitted that should have been.

The Corporate Divisions paragraph has been removed from from the electronic versions currently on sale. It will not be in the printed versions. If you bought the PDF already, you should be able to get a free updated version.

Jason H.

Thank you. It's a little thing given the scope of the book, but I think "honest mistakes" like this accurately illustrate why I had concerns earlier.

[otakusensei]

Suffice it to say that I find transparency a poor excuse for being too wrapped up in your own tragedy to act with decorum.

Jason did the same thing when AH released his self proofed drafts. Jason asked if the drafts were the ones that were edited by himself and other CGL staff. AH clarified that these were older drafts, edited by himself as he originally stated. Jason backed down.

Now AH calls Jason on using his original drafts in the publication of a book and Jason admits that's what happened and made a change to the PDF.

Who's acting without decorum?

[DireRadiant]

All these accusations going back and forth by everyone are inflammatory. Please consider before making them, and especially consider that these boards are not the appropriate venue for some of these matters.