CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Cthulhudreams]

The only person who has explictly said they left for morals left because they were asked to commit fraud

Protip: If you're an accountant/book keeper, and it comes out you committed fraud, your career just went up in flames. Even if you had no moral objections, it's still a 'high risk' move.

[Congzilla]

The only person who has explictly said they left for morals left because they were asked to commit fraud

Protip: If you're an accountant/book keeper, and it comes out you committed fraud, your career just went up in flames. Even if you had no moral objections, it's still a 'high risk' move.

This is the speculation thread, enough with all of your facts already.

/sarcasm

Love the protip line, classic.

[Demonseed Elite]

And yes, how dependent a freelancer is on their CGL checks really runs the gamut, which is why there's no universal point of view among the freelancers. It was pretty easy for me to walk away from CGL, at least financially. For others, not so much.

[Endroren]

I don't think any part of this can be summed up as neatly as folks would like. Another example why someone might keep working without pay is that this is the role-playing game industry, folks. It isn't exactly a big money business. When you're working for a game you love (before the trouble hit) and someone says "Hey - money is tight, but we'll definitely do right by you given time. But right now we really need help on this next project." there is a good chance folks will say "Yeah, that's cool. I understand." and help out.

In my experience, people are generally trusting barring clear evidence that they shouldn't be. They will give others the benefit of the doubt. They want to help where they can. This might not fit with good, cold, business reasoning, but it's a pretty human response - and a pretty laudable one IMO.

In the end, the reasons people have done what they've done in this mess are as many and varied as the characters we play in our games. No one "archetype" is going to work to explain any of it.

[Doc Chase]

The only person who has explictly said they left for morals left because they were asked to commit fraud

Protip: If you're an accountant/book keeper, and it comes out you committed fraud, your career just went up in flames. Even if you had no moral objections, it's still a 'high risk' move.

IIRC, the accounting manager at WorldCom got four years just for making an entry in the books at the direction of the masterminds of the whole WorldCom scandal.

There's no hard and fast ethics requirement for an accounting degree, but the upper-tier teachers definitely include it in all of their courses.

[Grinder]

I would disagree, judging from some posts it seems as if they blame everyone else but LLC or Bills for the situation.

What people know and what people say differs from time to time, you know?

[Taharqa]

JH doesn't have a problem working for LLC, whose unprofessional behaviour went far, far beyond voicing doubts about a schedule in a pointed way. At least where I come from, co-mingling money is not considered professional.

Fuchs, you are such a broken record. The discussion you are quoting from has nothing to do with LLC but rather wit hthe the JH v. AH issue, and yet you bust in with your standard "co-mingling" response. Is that really the only argument you can think of?

[deek]

When you're working for a game you love (before the trouble hit) and someone says "Hey - money is tight, but we'll definitely do right by you given time. But right now we really need help on this next project." there is a good chance folks will say "Yeah, that's cool. I understand." and help out.

And I understand that completely and would likely have that exact same attitude. What I wouldn't do, is later, after I found out that someone had been dipping into the pot and poorly managing the money, dwell on the fact that I hadn't been paid for past work. Especially if I gave a "yeah, that's cool" remark at the time.

I guess that the one part about the disgruntled freelancers that bothers me the most. That at some point they had to have okay'd not getting paid. And once money/bookkeeping became an issue at CGL, freelancers cried foul. Its a logical reaction, but a volatile one.

It kind of reminds me of being in a rock band. When our front man started skimming money for personal stuff, planning to pay it back later, I had to make a decision on whether I would continue playing or leave. While I wanted to leave at first, I also knew that getting into another band would be tough and I liked my bandmates and liked gigging and the lifestyle. Music wasn't my main source of income, so it wasn't as big a deal. We ended up taking the band funds away from the front man and gave it to someone else to manage and kept on playing music.

And in fact, there were also plenty of venues that promised us a certain amount of money and then didn't pay. We still liked playing at the venue, so kept playing there, in hopes of getting paid the "next time". Sometimes we did and other times we didn't. If we were upset enough about that, we wouldn't have booked another show...

Quite parallel scenarios the more I think about it.

[Demonseed Elite]

And I understand that completely and would likely have that exact same attitude. What I wouldn't do, is later, after I found out that someone had been dipping into the pot and poorly managing the money, dwell on the fact that I hadn't been paid for past work. Especially if I gave a "yeah, that's cool" remark at the time.

I guess that the one part about the disgruntled freelancers that bothers me the most. That at some point they had to have okay'd not getting paid. And once money/bookkeeping became an issue at CGL, freelancers cried foul. Its a logical reaction, but a volatile one.

I've responded to this a few times in earlier versions of this thread, but I'll repeat it again because people appear to be missing it.

First, in my experience, there was no situation where CGL came to me and said, "Hey - money is tight, but we'll definitely do right by you given time. But right now we really need help on this next project." Period. There was no communication. I've said in an earlier post on an earlier iteration of this thread that if there had been communication from CGL management saying something to that effect, I would have gladly asked CGL to focus on paying the freelancers who depend on their checks more than I do first. Instead it was always me e-mailing CGL to find out what was going on with checks and not getting any replies back. Except for replies for the line developers, who themselves would not get replies back from management when they asked about checks on my behalf.

And hell, it wasn't just the pay. The same thing happened with the contracts. The incident that most directly led to me terminating my contracts with CGL in 2008 was a situation where I was being harassed to turn in drafts on a project while I was simultaneously being ignored in my requests for a contract. I hadn't signed anything yet, but I was getting nasty e-mails to turn in my work immediately.

It's really not as volatile a reaction from the freelancers as you think. Many of them were okay with the idea of delayed payments, it was an expected outcome. But when things came to light about Loren L. Coleman and his withdrawals from the bank account, the entire relationship with CGL changed. The idea that CGL might not be able to pay, ever, become a worry. Second, the idea that freelancer payments were being delayed because of legitimate production cash flow issues is completely different from the idea that freelancer payments were being delayed because an owner was drawing from the bank account for his own personal expenses.

[Endroren]

And I understand that completely and would likely have that exact same attitude. What I wouldn't do, is later, after I found out that someone had been dipping into the pot and poorly managing the money, dwell on the fact that I hadn't been paid for past work. Especially if I gave a "yeah, that's cool" remark at the time.

I was going to respond specifically to this, but I think it comes back to what I said before - you can't paint any of this with the same brush. Every person is different. Every situation is different. Every event is different. My argument wasn't meant to add the "one other response" people had - it was meant to say "there are infinite reasons."

Maybe if we knew the full story behind a specific case we'd be in a position to judge based on our own values, but as someone who was inside I can assure you that most of what people are judging freelancers on here is based on extremely limited information. A literal "tip of the iceberg" scenario.

So speculate away, but know that you ARE speculating and that you pretty much have to speculate individually on a case-by-case basis because there is no such thing as a "general position" in this mess.

[tete]

I truly, truly have a passion for Shadowrun.

This is true... not many people know as much as Cain these days about the history, rules etc of long out of print books. Heck I keep finding these 4e players that think elves and dwarves transform at puberty in the old days, and I have to correct them and say they are born and always have been its the orks and trolls that transformed. Cain and I have been internet friends since, geez I want to say like 98 or something when I found Dumpshock. Well before the crash and he was just as lovingly stubborn (and usually right I must admit) back then. Unlike me who took a huge hiatus after they yanked the general talk and I found Mutants and Masterminds (I even posted Sorry guys I'm leaving and not coming back), Cain endured. He is one of oh maybe a half-dozen or so dumpshockers I will always go to if I have a RAW or Cannon question.

[RunnerPaul]

Fuchs, you are such a broken record. The discussion you are quoting from has nothing to do with LLC but rather wit hthe the JH v. AH issue, and yet you bust in with your standard "co-mingling" response. Is that really the only argument you can think of?

Specifically, to use your own words the discussion "was in response to a poster who was aghast that JH would have the nerve to kick AH out of the freelancer forums for his unprofessional behavior." I'd say bringing up other unprofessional behavior that JH has chosen to tolerate and hasn't show the nerve to take action over goes a long way to explaining why someone would be agahst over the actions that were taken.

[deek]

@Endroren
Yes, I do agree, this is all speculation and there is no general position in this mess. I guess I was just trying to step through what I might have done in the situation and relate it to my own experiences. Except for my being in a band for a few years, I have nothing close to the environment conditions I perceive a freelance writer would have. Any company I have worked for, had I not received a check on payday, would have me talking to my boss, HR or payroll rep and if it wasn't resolved by end of day, well...at the very least, I'd be looking for another job. Granted, different industry, different pay model, so its harder for me to really know what I'd have done.

@Demonseed Elite
I apologize for you having to recap, yet again, but I appreciate it. From what you are saying, I find it hard to believe anyone would keep on working under those conditions. I'm still curious how long people worked like that, as that would skew my opinion. And I just don't see how someone could let consistent non-responses from management fly. I can get pretty persistent and if e-mail isn't working, phone calls, face-to-face (which obviously is harder when working remote) or other tactics...I don't know, I guess I haven't been in a situation like this, but I don't think it would last for more than a couple weeks before I just moved on...granted, I still have a fanboy writer mentality and see myself as loving to work, write and be party of the inner circle in a game I enjoy, so the money and contract end of things probably wouldn't have been as big a deal...but again, I haven't been in those shoes. I'm sure after you get enough stuff published you start looking at it more as work than hobby.

[Demonseed Elite]

@Demonseed Elite
I apologize for you having to recap, yet again, but I appreciate it. From what you are saying, I find it hard to believe anyone would keep on working under those conditions. I'm still curious how long people worked like that, as that would skew my opinion. And I just don't see how someone could let consistent non-responses from management fly. I can get pretty persistent and if e-mail isn't working, phone calls, face-to-face (which obviously is harder when working remote) or other tactics...I don't know, I guess I haven't been in a situation like this, but I don't think it would last for more than a couple weeks before I just moved on...granted, I still have a fanboy writer mentality and see myself as loving to work, write and be party of the inner circle in a game I enjoy, so the money and contract end of things probably wouldn't have been as big a deal...but again, I haven't been in those shoes. I'm sure after you get enough stuff published you start looking at it more as work than hobby.

The "fan" part of it is certainly a factor; it'll keep a freelancer working for a lot longer without pay than they would for any other outfit. I mean, I enjoy writing for Shadowrun and that made me much more willing to put up with contract and payment delays, but it eventually wears you down. There's also the fact that the license-holder kept changing--I worked for three different license-holders--and each time it changed, the new license-holder would tell the writers that those delays would be solved.

[crizh]

Specifically, to use your own words the discussion "was in response to a poster who was aghast that JH would have the nerve to kick AH out of the freelancer forums for his unprofessional behavior." I'd say bringing up other unprofessional behavior that JH has chosen to tolerate and hasn't show the nerve to take action over goes a long way to explaining why someone would be agahst over the actions that were taken.

It's probably approaching time to just start ignoring him. He ignored the content of my original post to go of on some tangent, then he misrepresented me and then he ignored my clarification to have another go at Fuchs.

The foot is going down, there it goes, the foot is down....

The ignore button is tremendously liberating I'm finding.

[DireRadiant]

People seem to forget the main issues when not regularily reminded what actually started this mess - the behaviour of the guys who run IMR. Namely not paying freelancers and co-mingling money.

Posting about how "Unprofessional" AH supposedly acted, and neglecting to mention how unprofessional the whole company was and likely still is run (see the mistakenly used draft from AH) is spin doctoring.

Amusing.

If I understand this, I can do whatever I feel like as long as I allege or accuse someone else of doing something that could be considered worse then what I'm doing?

That's so cool. I can feel free to ignore the actual behavior and actions in front of me because there are these far more horrible people are claiming are happening elsewhere. This makes me feel so much better.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Amusing.

If I understand this, I can do whatever I feel like as long as I allege or accuse someone else of doing something that could be considered worse then what I'm doing?

That's so cool. I can feel free to ignore the actual behavior and actions in front of me because there are these far more horrible people are claiming are happening elsewhere. This makes me feel so much better.

You sir have a bright future in politics.

[Caadium]

Amusing.

If I understand this, I can do whatever I feel like as long as I allege or accuse someone else of doing something that could be considered worse then what I'm doing?

That's so cool. I can feel free to ignore the actual behavior and actions in front of me because there are these far more horrible people are claiming are happening elsewhere. This makes me feel so much better.

"Officer, before we discuss this stolen car I'm in, lets discuss the real problem; BP. You see, the economic hardships caused by the oil spill are what have driven me to a life of crime just to feed my kids. So, ignore the fact that I stole this car, BP caused a HUGE oil spill."

Way to wag that dog!

[Congzilla]

"Officer, before we discuss this stolen car I'm in, lets discuss the real problem; BP. You see, the economic hardships caused by the oil spill are what have driven me to a life of crime just to feed my kids. So, ignore the fact that I stole this car, BP caused a HUGE oil spill."

Way to wag that dog!

Living on the east coast of Florida I politely ask we refrain from mentioning BP or the spill here. I am inundated enough with hearing about that, I don't want to hear about it here too.

[Ancient History]

Kids, I've never claimed any excuse for calling Jason a liar.

Whatever Randall or Loren did does not excuse that, but it must be remembered that it was the root cause of that. The situation with CGL was the environment that the my banning and termination of contracts occurred in, it was the backdrop for a great deal of animosity and the actions on both sides. My statement against Jason was taken as "attempting to undermine me [sic] and the company" - those are Jason's own words. My accusation to David Hill and others that Jason was lying and that CGL was in a worse position than it pretended were directly the result of what I had heard on the matter from people I knew and trusted. If CGL had not been in such circumstances, I might not have made my statements, and perhaps Jason would not have reacted as he did.

Naturally, Jason doesn't like to be accused of dishonesty, no one does. Facts of the matter are, Jason and I have argued the matter privately until we reached an impasse. Jason claims he had information, which he did not share (money matters are not discussed with freelancers) that provided the basis for the schedule he had planned. I think that statement is true and he believes that. I do not think it qualifies his original statement as true. So, we disagree. Jason once told me he thinks I'm always ready to think the worst of him, and that's likely true. I've been thinking less well of Jason for a long time.

I resented Jason's promotion to Line Developer, as I and others felt he was a relative outsider and does not have a thorough knowledge of the game, it's history, feel, or mechanics. We argued many times, over many subjects. Before the current crisis when I pulled copyright on certain books to force CGL to pay me, he accused me of being greedy and was upset I had not discussed the matter with him first. At times I felt personally slighted by his actions. If that seems unfair of me, I'd like to give an example:

For several months (since fall '09) I had lobbied for an updated FAQ, something I felt was very necessary but which are part of a developer's myriad unpaid and less important duties, to the point that several years and developers had past since the last update. I took the initiative to write the FAQ, to solicit questions, answers, and commentary from freelancers and the like, and to re-write the FAQ. I presented it to Jason, ready to post. He did not. For months. The stated reason he gave me at the time was that he did not have the time to double check everything I had written. Instead, he tried something else. His first and only question he managed to get wrong, because he was unfamiliar with the rules, because he had not asked anyone else for help or to look over his work. Jason then asked that the FAQ be redone so that all the freelancers approved of it. I did that, and submitted it again, and waited. It was not until after I had terminated my contracts - and threatened to post the FAQ myself - that it was finally posted.

This, as much as anything I hope gives an example of the breakdown in my relationship with Jason, and it is fundamentally a lack of communication and lack of trust. Jason did not, I feel, make an effort to communicate with the freelancers or build up trust. The entire episode where I called him a liar was specifically the result of Jason (and Randall, and everybody at CGL) not talking to the freelancers. I've heard more from him personally after I was out of the freelancer pool than I ever did while I was in it.

So if anyone wants to blame me for what I did, let me make it easy for you. I called Jason a liar, and I didn't do it to his face. If I'd addressed the issue in the public chat, or personally, maybe it would have been resolved. Jason for his part then went behind my back to get me banned, instead of talking to me about. Whether or not he did lie, I don't appreciate that, but I can understand it - after all, I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt either. Neither of us had much trust in each other, neither of us talked directly to each other until I was banned and I told him I was terminating my contracts and that if he didn't post the FAQ, I would.

Was I right to call Jason a liar? No. I still think he lied, that he has chosen to work with a company run by deceitful people, that he has chosen to be their agent and misrepresented himself and the situation at CGL and with SR more than he bounds of optimism would allow. I think his writing is shit and his ideas are worse. But that doesn't excuse that it was a dick move on my part. I should have addressed the situation directly, I did not. Was Jason right to ban me? Well, it was his prerogative. Of the choices available to him, that is the one he chose. In hindsight, maybe he should have been less rash, maybe he should have at least waited. But then, as he likes to tell me, I can't say exactly what goes on in his head.

That, shadowkids, is yet another long-drawn-out post expounding on a situation covered in the umpteenth detail. The point, Taharqa and DireRadiant, that some people have attempted to make is that it is also a small thing. That doesn't mean I get a pass for being dick, or Jason gets a pass for acting like Jason; that means that this small event should not overshadow the much larger and more important issue at hand: the situation at IMR. Because in any effort to derail a debate, it is a time-tested tactic to attempt and ignore the bigger and more pressing issues by focusing on the smaller issues and details. Detractors seize on these small issues and work to bring them to the forefront of the conversation in order to suppress the real issues at stake. It happens on both sides, and it is a poor excuse for not having a real counterargument to bring to bear. So since this is not a particular issue for anyone here - Jason can argue the details of my post if he feels I've been unfair (again) - why don't we focus on the actual subject, which is the latest from PACER regarding the case:

06/17/2010 Minutes. (related document(s): 17 Scheduling Order) . : Pretrial conference stricken. (KK) (Entered: 06/17/2010 at 10:49:24)
06/18/2010 Set Hearing Pretrial stricken in error (Related document(s) 2 Summons Involuntary, Minutes Hearing Held). The Hearing date is set for 6/18/2010 at 09:00 AM at Judge Glover's Courtroom, U.S. Courthouse, Room 7106. (USBC Staff - O'Neill, Ramie) (Entered: 06/18/2010 at 08:28:28)
06/18/2010 Notice to Court of Intent to Argue. Date of Hearing: 6/18/2010. Filed by Diana K Carey Warning: party not known. (Related document(s) 2 Summons Involuntary, Minutes Hearing Held, Set Hearing). (USBC Staff - O'Neill, Ramie) (Entered: 06/18/2010 at 08:30:37)

[Congzilla]

So what happened at the hearing today?

[Shinobi Killfist]

I would not use the current FAQ as something to hang my hat on as a reason why you know the rules better than other people.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would not use the current FAQ as something to hang my hat on as a reason why you know the rules better than other people.

???


Keep the Faith

[darthmord]

I would not use the current FAQ as something to hang my hat on as a reason why you know the rules better than other people.

You should re-read some of the commentary about the FAQ. Acknowledgement of mistakes has already happened. But you would already know if you had done your homework instead of lobbing insults.

AH,

What exactly does that snipper from PACER mean?

[Ancient History]

I think part of it was about a clerical error. As I understand it, a date for the actual hearing was set for August 9th.