What happened to the team? Options

[tete]

So in prior editions you had team karma pool does 4e have anything for the team?

[X-Kalibur]

So in prior editions you had team karma pool does 4e have anything for the team?

You did? I can't seem to recall having team karma pool. I remember having Karma and Karma Pool and the pool was equal to 1 for every 10 karma earned as human or 1 for every 20 as other metatypes, and that was individualized.

[Redcrow]

2e had team Karma Pools. I think it was every 20th point of earned Karma went into the Karma Pool and alternated between Personal Karma Pool and team Karma Pool. So, the 20th point would go into a character's personal Karma Pool then the 40th point would go into the team Karma Pool, the 60th point into personal, etc. etc.

I think that was how it went, but its been so long since I played 2e I'd have to crack open the book to be sure.

[tete]

2e you could sacrifice a point of Karma Pool to go into team Karma Pool, I don't recall 1e/3e off the top of my head but I thought that it was availible among all three editions (Possibly in RC). Could be wrong.

[Redcrow]

2e you could sacrifice a point of Karma Pool to go into team Karma Pool, I don't recall 1e/3e off the top of my head but I thought that it was availible among all three editions (Possibly in RC). Could be wrong.

Yeah, that sounds right. I think its starting to come back to me now. It wasn't mandatory for a player to add Karma to the team pool, but it was an option and often useful.

[Stahlseele]

3e hd Group Karma as well.

[Voran]

Marvel superheroes rpg also had 'team karma'. As for why its not in 4th ed SR, hm. The fluff seems to support more of a global setting of individual operatives. More of a 'pick up' team than a 'guild team'.

[Dwight]

The Team Karma Pool died in the same trash strewn back alley as the Karma Pool....and I miss it even less than the latter. By itself it didn't do much for me. Warhammer FRP 3 has something similar but with a lot more meat on the bones in that players can offer up one or two Tactic cards for use by everyone, there are a couple tracks on the "team" card, the players choose from a dozen or so team archetypes with descriptive names like "Brash Young Fools" that each have different benefits/drawbacks, and then the team pool of Fortune dice has things actually happening to an extent that didn't with the Team Karma Pool. That might be somewhat interesting, Team Karma Pool was just cruft IMO.

[tete]

The Team Karma Pool died in the same trash strewn back alley as the Karma Pool....and I miss it even less than the latter. By itself it didn't do much for me. Warhammer FRP 3 has something similar but with a lot more meat on the bones in that players can offer up one or two Tactic cards for use by everyone, there are a couple tracks on the "team" card, the players choose from a dozen or so team archetypes with descriptive names like "Brash Young Fools" that each have different benefits/drawbacks, and then the team pool of Fortune dice has things actually happening to an extent that didn't with the Team Karma Pool. That might be somewhat interesting, Team Karma Pool was just cruft IMO.

You do realize Karma Pool = Edge right? They just renamed it and put a cap on it... And yeah I have WFRP3, thinking about it was what actually made me wonder what happened to the TEAM in SR4, because we usually put every other KP point into the group pool.

[edit] The old tactics skill also used to give extra dice to everyone's combat pool if you opted to use that skill rather than do anything else.

[Dwight]

You do realize Karma Pool = Edge right?

Correction, Karma Pool's harvested ADAM with the suck distilled out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Edge performs [roughly] the same job but it does it in a much different manner, and takes on other roles too, so calling it "renamed it and put a cap on it" not particularly accurate.

And yeah I have WFRP3, thinking about it was what actually made me wonder what happened to the TEAM in SR4, because we usually put every other KP point into the group pool.

Whereas I see the Team Pool as so insignificant in impact that I didn't think of it at all when reading and using WFRP 3's implementation. *shrug*

[tete]

Correction, Karma Pool's harvested ADAM with the suck distilled out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Edge performs [roughly] the same job but it does it in a much different manner, and takes on other roles too, so calling it "renamed it and put a cap on it" not particularly accurate.

Examples? Far as I know the "what you can do with edge" and "what you can do with karma pool" paragraphs are near identical, ie reroll failures, add dice, burn to get a success, etc.

[Jaid]

Examples? Far as I know the "what you can do with edge" and "what you can do with karma pool" paragraphs are near identical, ie reroll failures, add dice, burn to get a success, etc.

hmmm...

well, edge is used in avoiding suppressive fire.

and also to see whether genetic infusions are permanent.

but that's all i'm coming up with offhand. could you burn karma pool to get a critical success in earlier editions? i don't recall one way or the other. not sure about long-shot tests either, since i doubt they were needed before 4th (since you could theoretically hit any TN on a single die if you got really really lucky)

[Dwight]

Examples? Far as I know the "what you can do with edge" and "what you can do with karma pool" paragraphs are near identical, ie reroll failures, add dice, burn to get a success, etc.

Edge functionally replaces Combat Pool as well. Really all of those scattered discretionary dice Pools were dragged all into one place.

EDIT: Could Karma Pool add initiative passes or move you ahead action in order? I don't recall that functionality?

[tete]

hmmm...

well, edge is used in avoiding suppressive fire.

and also to see whether genetic infusions are permanent.

but that's all i'm coming up with offhand. could you burn karma pool to get a critical success in earlier editions? i don't recall one way or the other. not sure about long-shot tests either, since i doubt they were needed before 4th (since you could theoretically hit any TN on a single die if you got really really lucky)

You could use Karma Pool to add dice up to the skill, attribute, or rating but not other pool dice for those tests. I think though IIRC you only get pool dice to avoid auto-fire so you may be right on that one.

Edge functionally replaces Combat Pool as well. Really all of those scattered discretionary dice Pools were dragged all into one place.

EDIT: Could Karma Pool add initiative passes or move you ahead action in order? I don't recall that functionality?

In the sense that its not static sure but really "pools" rolled into attributes sorta like the optional rule in 2e RC where you could just always use half your dice for attack and the other half for a dodge pool. For initiative you could add dice as above but no guarantees on IP or being first. So again similar but perhaps that falls under the dodging auto fire thing were a GM may say "no dice"

[Dwight]

In the sense that its not static sure but really "pools" rolled into attributes sorta like the optional rule in 2e RC where you could just always use half your dice for attack and the other half for a dodge pool.

1) That is SR2
2) That was 'optional' (and, from my understanding rarely used), really it was just the player choice set to a default choice
3) SR3 went the other way with a proliferation of discretionary dice pools with associated choices, there wasn't a [Fixing] The Kitchen Sink Pool but I sometimes wonder why not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SR3 -> SR4. The role of all discretionary [character ability] dice all falls onto Edge.

For initiative you could add dice as above but no guarantees on IP or being first. So again similar but perhaps that falls under the dodging auto fire thing were a GM may say "no dice"

Edge has two separate uses for initiative. Add an IP at any phase, and an automatic first (regardless of how many IP) on any given IP. Well there might be a third, IIRC you Edge your Initiative roll (on one of the multiple ways to use Edge for 'normal' pool rolls)? That's a fairly detailed amount of control.

[Yerameyahu]

Honestly, I could do without Edge entirely. I understand that it's a safety net and cinematic-success mechanic, but it's an extra complication and karma sink. Anyway, just an off-topic comment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Back on topic, I don't know that many people want a team resource like that. As someone said above, I like the Shadowrun that encourages independent operatives, instead of gangs or crews. Now, tabletop forces most of us to play as if we were all best friends for life, but I still prefer the delusion that we're just coincidentally assigned to the same jobs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Plus, you can swap characters between runs.

[tete]

1) That is SR2
2) That was 'optional' (and, from my understanding rarely used), really it was just the player choice set to a default choice
3) SR3 went the other way with a proliferation of discretionary dice pools with associated choices, there wasn't a [Fixing] The Kitchen Sink Pool but I sometimes wonder why not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SR3 -> SR4. The role of all discretionary [character ability] dice all falls onto Edge.

Edge has two separate uses for initiative. Add an IP at any phase, and an automatic first (regardless of how many IP) on any given IP. Well there might be a third, IIRC you Edge your Initiative roll (on one of the multiple ways to use Edge for 'normal' pool rolls)? That's a fairly detailed amount of control.

I more see it as as dice pools became attributes because in older editions you had usually 3-6 dice in your die pool and 3-6 dice in your skill, skills remained skills but rather than having pools you have a fixed attribute. Plus attributes were used to build the old dice pools they just removed the (attribute+attribute)/2 so each skill check is now just one attribute. But I can agree to disagree.

Edge does give you more control, I said it was more similar to dodging auto fire where where karma pool may or may not apply depending on the GM.

[Dwight]

I more see it as as dice pools became attributes

Yeah, an attribute called Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm talking about the discretionary part. It's for the splashy "cinematic" feel Yerameyahu mentions.

Although the Attribute were [redefined so that they] also added resulting in an overall boost in dice pool size relative to SR3 to adjust for the difference in the TNs/die roll interpretation. (remember, we had this discussion?) But...

Edge does give you more control, I said it was more similar to dodging auto fire where where karma pool may or may not apply depending on the GM.

... and also control in attack rolls, etc. Discretionary dice. Is this your English issues rearing their head again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Do I need to go all Wiki on my posts when replying to you?

But I can agree to disagree.

Yes, you've clearly demonstrated that as a core property of yours, the ability to disagree. Repeatedly. In fact I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict you are about to give another demonstration of your Impenetrable Wall of Thickness +5 impersonation....

[tete]

Yes, you've clearly demonstrated that as a core property of yours, the ability to disagree. Repeatedly. In fact I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict you are about to give another demonstration of your Impenetrable Wall of Thickness +5 impersonation....

Thank you for trolling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

Back on topic, I don't know that many people want a team resource like that. As someone said above, I like the Shadowrun that encourages independent operatives, instead of gangs or crews. Now, tabletop forces most of us to play as if we were all best friends for life, but I still prefer the delusion that we're just coincidentally assigned to the same jobs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Plus, you can swap characters between runs.

I can see that, I just happen to enjoy bonuses for teamwork. Granted a GM could give his own bonus for team work without rules. For me I always saw Shadowrunners like the team in Heat, pretty tight and as long as there isnt a dick in the group, things go pretty well. I don't like the whole "you meet in a bar" cliche.

[Yerameyahu]

There *are* bonuses for teamwork. There are teamwork tests, and there's the huge bonus of everyone not-dying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hehe.

I know what you meant, though. You certainly can play Shadowrun as a gang or crew. I don't think there's any reason to give a special bonus for it, but you'll already gain advantages in terms of sharing gear/locations/resources. You'll avoid buying extra (redundant) items and contacts, and you can afford to specialize slightly more. That said, and as I mentioned before, everyone pretty much de facto *does* that in non-Missions play anyway, whether their backgrounds support it or not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dwight]

Thank you for trolling (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

It was an anti-troll! An attempt to help you make the choice not to embarrass yourself repeating your silly assertions.

Success! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif) Against the odds I might add, thank you for the support in achieving this goal.

There *are* bonuses for teamwork. There are teamwork tests, and there's the huge bonus of everyone not-dying. Hehe.

Thus my initial post in this thread way back. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Unfortunately, having experienced the results of effective, compelling rules for teamwork (and the results of a number of GMs trying to implement teamwork mechanics on-the-fly, even when they have experience playing with effective teamwork rules from other systems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ), I find SR's treatment of the 'teamwork' concept [throughout the different editions] quite lacking.

There are a couple ways to tactically use teamwork in combat, such trying to run people's dodging dice out. But even then it doesn't feel like teamwork between the characters, if you get what I mean? It's sort of a cardboard cutout of teamwork. *shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Consider the entire game is about cool tactical heists, coordinated cons, diverse skills specialties, meat/matrix/astral, etc., I've never remotely felt like there was no teamwork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Teamwork is *why* I love Shadowrun; I just don't *necessarily* need a crew or a mechanical bonus for it.

[Dwight]

<double post fun>

[Dwight]

*shrug* Consider the entire game is about cool tactical heists, coordinated cons, diverse skills specialties, meat/matrix/astral, etc., I've never remotely felt like there was no teamwork. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Teamwork is *why* I love Shadowrun; I just don't *necessarily* need a crew or a mechanical bonus for it.

My issue is that the fluff says "yes" but the mechanics say "meh". There is a disconnect between mechanics and "what the game is about"**. Which I believe was why Tete created this thread (and that he saw it headed in the wrong direction in SR4). Correct me if I'm off on that, Tete?


** In your opinion and largely in mine, too. I'd just add to that list "gettin' screwed by The Man/system/occasionally allies, and attempting to avoid the same" and "GRENADES!"...ain't Shadowrun till someone tries the Ring Trick. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

See, I don't see the mechanics as anti-teamwork. You could do runs alone, but we never do. It's all about working together, fundamentally so; the *mechanics* certainly support this, because it's the mechanics that require diverse skillsets, and the mechanics that will kill your character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My whole point is that the absence of a rule that says, 'good job, you weren't solo!', has nothing to do with whether 'the mechanics support teamwork'.