 Hackers vs Technomancers |
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 Sep 20 2005, 10:31 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 4-February 03 Member No.: 4,007  |
I've been trying to design a few decker characters... both of the hacker and technomancer variety. It really seems silly that a hacker can easily start the game with EVERY program at a 6 rating so cheaply, while a technomancer has to pay build points (rather then cheap nuyen). Likewise, after the game starts, a hacker can easily buy upgrades, but a technomancer has to go through the long program design/build process AND pay significant karma.
The result is that even a novice hacker will almost always have a maxed out commlink and all programs at six, while a novice technomancer will have only a fraction of this. Soo... just what is the advantage of playing a technomancer? For summoning spirits (opps, sprites)? While threading is cool, it really close the gap until you become a much more advanced character. Pel |
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Sep 20 2005, 10:52 PM
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#2
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
One other benefit is that many actions that hackers take for granted leave no trace when done by a technomancer.
Also, sprites can do many amazing things, like run drones, on behalf of the technomancer. |
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Sep 20 2005, 11:12 PM
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#3
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Not to mention that Sprites can directly add its rating to your complex forms. Thus, a Technomancer eventually will be able to throw many more dice at most hacking and computer-related tasks. I'm convinced that the only reason to play a Technomancer is to take advantage of the cheese known as Sprites. Pore over those rules a bit and you'll see what I mean.
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Sep 21 2005, 12:45 AM
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#4
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Technomancers R Cool! 8) :please: :rotfl:
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Sep 21 2005, 01:43 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Not quite true, I can't see anywhere where improving a complex form takes the arduous amount of time it takes to code, the closest I can see is the instruction test for learning new complex forms which has a threshold of (5, 1 day), rather than taking months, which means that it would appear technomancers can improve faster.
Threading does allow a technomancer to be better at specific tasks right near the start that a hacker can ever be. Programs cap out at 6, you can thread a complex form you started out at 5 with to over your resonance (up to twice if you manage to get enough hits). Compiling sprites are also handy, especially considering their unique powers. And yes, technomancers will end up by far outstripping hackers given enough time and karma. They also can end up being faster than anything else on the matrix can be, given that they appear to be the only ones who can get 4 init passes on the matrix. |
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Sep 21 2005, 06:20 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 13-September 05 Member No.: 7,736 |
Of Course they are!
Remember that the full VR rigging also uses the matrix ini. So they are amazing riggers too if they want so. |
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Sep 21 2005, 07:23 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
Hackers vr. Technomancers seem to pan out like the old Fighter vr. Wizard balance in AD&D. Hackers start out the gate really fast, but once a Technomancer has enough karma behind him, he'll dominate.
Or, to quote a friend, "Technomancers get to summon Digital Jesus." |
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Sep 21 2005, 08:20 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 13-September 05 Member No.: 7,736 |
n1 |
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Sep 21 2005, 10:58 AM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Is there any reason that you can't start out hacking with the nuyen-fueled hardware and still spend the points to be a technomancer? With added experience, you'd eventually increase your technomancer abilities until you were good enough to abandon the "tech-crutch" and go full-on technomancer.
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Sep 21 2005, 11:01 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
Well, you just have to buy your hacking skills two times ... one for the technomancer, one for the hacker. That´s a lot of BPs and/or Karma. Too much IMHO.
SYL |
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Sep 21 2005, 11:07 AM
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#11
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In fact, both whole Skill Groups of Electronics and Cracking would be needed twice.
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Sep 21 2005, 12:51 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
One major difference would be that the hacker can go the combat decker route of SR3 while technomancers have to avoid excess cyber. Here's a quick question though. What happened to all the pro-decking cyberware like the encephalon and math SPU? I think I read that they weren't in SR4. ( Which would mean I'm going to have to convert them. The team decker uses them. ) |
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Sep 21 2005, 12:57 PM
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#13
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
IMHO, it always was kinda cheesy that an implanted calculator made you a better way better cracker than your state of the art system did.
Those implants don't exist in SR4 main book, and, considering the Response approach, they have a slim chance to reappear in Augmention in any similar fashion. |
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Sep 21 2005, 03:47 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 44 Joined: 4-February 03 Member No.: 4,007 |
Still, it takes a technomancer 22 karma to raise a complex form to 6. Thats 440 karma just to max out all his forms... something a hacker can start the game with. Even if a technomancer starts with maxing out as many forms as he can at char gen (thats 2*logic total, 1 build/point... I'm assuming they have the same 4/5/6 cap rules as other skills... so assume they are all capped at 4)... he still has hundereds of karma to spend to catch up.
Also, in a game with so many skill/attribute caps they are very unclear on how capping for technomancers works. If use raise a form through threading you are explicitely capped at 2*resonance... but what about by using a sprite... or god forbit a sprite AND threading? Is a complex form a skill and limited by the max skill*1.5 cap? Or can I really boost it through the roof? Assuming you have stat/skill/resonance/complex form all at 6... then you could (on average) boost a form by +4 with threading. If you use one service of a force 4 sprite to maintain that, then another service to directly aid the form you could get a total of +8 to your form (assuming there is no cap). The more I look at it, threading really isn't a very good deal. A "all 6" player would on average get +4 dice due to threading... but at the price of drain and -2 dice to everythig (including whatever he is threading). Net, drain and +2 dice. Instead, you can easily summon force 4 sprite and get a service for +4 with no penalty. The only way threading makes sense is if you combine threading with a sprite directly aiding the form (and sustaining the threading)... but then you are way violating any sort of capping rule. Pel |
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Sep 21 2005, 03:49 PM
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#15
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Keep in mind, a Hacker can't start with a System or Response of 6 at the char-gen, so it will take months to make use of those applications at their full potential.
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Sep 21 2005, 03:58 PM
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#16
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
They aren't skills, and thus aren't limited by the same limitations as skills. You can very well get a stable of Rating 6 Complex forms at character creation, although honestly, you wouldn't have very many points for other things if you did that. The only limitation is that your Complex Form ratings can't exceed your Resonance. It's very difficult to make a Technomancer that has any skills other than those related to the Matrix and computers. I've been trying to make an Elf Technomancer/Face, but it's not working out very well. |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:04 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Unless a Reality Filter is used and succeeds in its Response+Reality Filter test in each node, yes. The +1 from the Reality Filter early on makes alllll the difference!!! |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:07 PM
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#18
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
till you fail (or glitch) and drop even lower.
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Sep 21 2005, 04:10 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Alrighty then allow me to tear your argument to shreads. Complex forms max out at the technomancers resonance. Your resonance is 18? thats nice the max rating for your complex forms is 18. Your resonance is 7 max rating 7. resonance 4 thats right you guessed it max rating 4. Threading allows you to improvise forms you don't know or increase a form up to a max of resonance * 2. The aiding and such done by sprites is done by registered sprites, not your average sprite (as specificaly stated under those services descriptions). Now. Your arguments don't make alot of sense. Threading is bad because you have to resist drain and while sustaining it you have a -2 penalty. Hrm, damn I suppose mages should stop casint spells they have to sustain because its bad for them! Then you talk of summoning up a sprite and have it sustain and aid it. First off thats 2 services. Secondly it'd have to be a registered sprite. Lets just say you were talking about calling up a registered sprite. Give the form to it to sustain. wow no more -2 penalty. Have it aid that gives you its rating in bonus to the complex form for a number of combat turns equal to the sprites rating. Now does the sprite aid do anything with the caps? Well considering it does not actualy increase the rating of the form, and meerly adds dice to it...its iffy. Now whats so great about technomancers vs hackers. Hacker Pro's Stuff is cheap and easily available. Have the ability of cyberware without it bothering their abbilities. Can have others write programs for them or steal someone elses code. Programs don't cost karma Damage to the matrix persona is not done to them Damage to icon is easily fixed Rebooting if needed is very quick Hacker Con's Limits of hardware and software. If they dont' have a program they have no way of doing it. Programing times. Technomancer Pro's Resonance is not capped. Echo's. Threading to use forms the 'mancer doesn't have currently. Haveing a sprite hash and deliver a file. Sprites in general. +2 dice to ALL matrix actions in VR. threading to have better programs complex forms are caped by resonance no actual accessID so can't be traced by that Sprites can't be screwed with by hackers learning is quicker than programing Technomancer Con's Fading. -2 dicepool penalty if they sustain a threaded form karma cost for learning Can not just steal programs for their forms Have to learn from a sprite or another technomancer cyberware interferes with resonance Damage done to their icon is done to them personaly Rebooting takes a long time Leave behind a matrix sig (however it is noted this can only be seen by other resonance beings such as sprites and technomancers) All in all if you actualy consider things? They're prety ballanced vs hackers. Hackers have their advantages and disadvantages. Technomancers have theirs. Kind of like, dare i say it, a street sammie vs a adept. |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:17 PM
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#20
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That benefit is not exclusive for Technomancers: Anyone running Hot ASIST gets that bonus... Technomancers just can't run Cold ASIST at all. So Technomaners always get their brain cooked by Black IC, and are addicted to the Matrix, too. |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:18 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 112 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,896 |
Are Technomancers subject to the addiction rules since they run hot all the time?
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Sep 21 2005, 04:20 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Oh quite true forgot that. Oh forgot the bonus of +2 dice to all matrix perception checks. This includes AR and VR |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:22 PM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
They do get grumpy and agitated when they are away from it. :) (page 232) |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:24 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
There is nothing that states otherwise - if they abuse VR, their body will suffer.
And they dislike static, too. But that's not the critical point, that concerns AR - in VR, they always feed on a BTL strength signal. |
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Sep 21 2005, 04:31 PM
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#25
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
oooh, the wonderfully cruel uses of a jammer....
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