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Pelaka
I've been trying to design a few decker characters... both of the hacker and technomancer variety. It really seems silly that a hacker can easily start the game with EVERY program at a 6 rating so cheaply, while a technomancer has to pay build points (rather then cheap nuyen). Likewise, after the game starts, a hacker can easily buy upgrades, but a technomancer has to go through the long program design/build process AND pay significant karma.

The result is that even a novice hacker will almost always have a maxed out commlink and all programs at six, while a novice technomancer will have only a fraction of this. Soo... just what is the advantage of playing a technomancer? For summoning spirits (opps, sprites)? While threading is cool, it really close the gap until you become a much more advanced character.

Pel
Nikoli
One other benefit is that many actions that hackers take for granted leave no trace when done by a technomancer.

Also, sprites can do many amazing things, like run drones, on behalf of the technomancer.
hahnsoo
Not to mention that Sprites can directly add its rating to your complex forms. Thus, a Technomancer eventually will be able to throw many more dice at most hacking and computer-related tasks. I'm convinced that the only reason to play a Technomancer is to take advantage of the cheese known as Sprites. Pore over those rules a bit and you'll see what I mean.
Fortune
Technomancers R Cool! cool.gif ohplease.gif rotfl.gif
Ranneko
QUOTE (Pelaka)
Likewise, after the game starts, a hacker can easily buy upgrades, but a technomancer has to go through the long program design/build process AND pay significant karma.

Not quite true, I can't see anywhere where improving a complex form takes the arduous amount of time it takes to code, the closest I can see is the instruction test for learning new complex forms which has a threshold of (5, 1 day), rather than taking months, which means that it would appear technomancers can improve faster.

QUOTE

The result is that even a novice hacker will almost always have a maxed out commlink and all programs at six, while a novice technomancer will have only a fraction of this. Soo... just what is the advantage of playing a technomancer? For summoning spirits (opps, sprites)? While threading is cool, it really close the gap until you become a much more advanced character.


Threading does allow a technomancer to be better at specific tasks right near the start that a hacker can ever be. Programs cap out at 6, you can thread a complex form you started out at 5 with to over your resonance (up to twice if you manage to get enough hits).

Compiling sprites are also handy, especially considering their unique powers.

And yes, technomancers will end up by far outstripping hackers given enough time and karma. They also can end up being faster than anything else on the matrix can be, given that they appear to be the only ones who can get 4 init passes on the matrix.
Dutchy
QUOTE
Technomancers R Cool!


Of Course they are!

QUOTE
They also can end up being faster than anything else on the matrix can be, given that they appear to be the only ones who can get 4 init passes on the matrix.


Remember that the full VR rigging also uses the matrix ini. So they are amazing riggers too if they want so.
Conskill
Hackers vr. Technomancers seem to pan out like the old Fighter vr. Wizard balance in AD&D. Hackers start out the gate really fast, but once a Technomancer has enough karma behind him, he'll dominate.

Or, to quote a friend, "Technomancers get to summon Digital Jesus."
Dutchy
QUOTE
"Technomancers get to summon Digital Jesus."


n1
HappyDaze
Is there any reason that you can't start out hacking with the nuyen-fueled hardware and still spend the points to be a technomancer? With added experience, you'd eventually increase your technomancer abilities until you were good enough to abandon the "tech-crutch" and go full-on technomancer.
apple
Well, you just have to buy your hacking skills two times ... one for the technomancer, one for the hacker. Thatīs a lot of BPs and/or Karma. Too much IMHO.

SYL
Rotbart van Dainig
In fact, both whole Skill Groups of Electronics and Cracking would be needed twice.
booklord
QUOTE
Hackers vr. Technomancers seem to pan out like the old Fighter vr. Wizard balance in AD&D. Hackers start out the gate really fast, but once a Technomancer has enough karma behind him, he'll dominate.

Or, to quote a friend, "Technomancers get to summon Digital Jesus."


One major difference would be that the hacker can go the combat decker route of SR3 while technomancers have to avoid excess cyber.

Here's a quick question though. What happened to all the pro-decking cyberware like the encephalon and math SPU? I think I read that they weren't in SR4. ( Which would mean I'm going to have to convert them. The team decker uses them. )
Rotbart van Dainig
IMHO, it always was kinda cheesy that an implanted calculator made you a better way better cracker than your state of the art system did.

Those implants don't exist in SR4 main book, and, considering the Response approach, they have a slim chance to reappear in Augmention in any similar fashion.
Pelaka
Still, it takes a technomancer 22 karma to raise a complex form to 6. Thats 440 karma just to max out all his forms... something a hacker can start the game with. Even if a technomancer starts with maxing out as many forms as he can at char gen (thats 2*logic total, 1 build/point... I'm assuming they have the same 4/5/6 cap rules as other skills... so assume they are all capped at 4)... he still has hundereds of karma to spend to catch up.

Also, in a game with so many skill/attribute caps they are very unclear on how capping for technomancers works. If use raise a form through threading you are explicitely capped at 2*resonance... but what about by using a sprite... or god forbit a sprite AND threading? Is a complex form a skill and limited by the max skill*1.5 cap? Or can I really boost it through the roof?

Assuming you have stat/skill/resonance/complex form all at 6... then you could (on average) boost a form by +4 with threading. If you use one service of a force 4 sprite to maintain that, then another service to directly aid the form you could get a total of +8 to your form (assuming there is no cap).

The more I look at it, threading really isn't a very good deal. A "all 6" player would on average get +4 dice due to threading... but at the price of drain and -2 dice to everythig (including whatever he is threading). Net, drain and +2 dice. Instead, you can easily summon force 4 sprite and get a service for +4 with no penalty. The only way threading makes sense is if you combine threading with a sprite directly aiding the form (and sustaining the threading)... but then you are way violating any sort of capping rule.

Pel
Nikoli
Keep in mind, a Hacker can't start with a System or Response of 6 at the char-gen, so it will take months to make use of those applications at their full potential.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Pelaka)
thats 2*logic total, 1 build/point... I'm assuming they have the same 4/5/6 cap rules as other skills... so assume they are all capped at 4

They aren't skills, and thus aren't limited by the same limitations as skills. You can very well get a stable of Rating 6 Complex forms at character creation, although honestly, you wouldn't have very many points for other things if you did that. The only limitation is that your Complex Form ratings can't exceed your Resonance.

It's very difficult to make a Technomancer that has any skills other than those related to the Matrix and computers. I've been trying to make an Elf Technomancer/Face, but it's not working out very well.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Keep in mind, a Hacker can't start with a System or Response of 6 at the char-gen, so it will take months to make use of those applications at their full potential.

Unless a Reality Filter is used and succeeds in its Response+Reality Filter test in each node, yes. The +1 from the Reality Filter early on makes alllll the difference!!!
Nikoli
till you fail (or glitch) and drop even lower.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Pelaka)
Still, it takes a technomancer 22 karma to raise a complex form to 6. Thats 440 karma just to max out all his forms... something a hacker can start the game with. Even if a technomancer starts with maxing out as many forms as he can at char gen (thats 2*logic total, 1 build/point... I'm assuming they have the same 4/5/6 cap rules as other skills... so assume they are all capped at 4)... he still has hundereds of karma to spend to catch up.

Also, in a game with so many skill/attribute caps they are very unclear on how capping for technomancers works. If use raise a form through threading you are explicitely capped at 2*resonance... but what about by using a sprite... or god forbit a sprite AND threading? Is a complex form a skill and limited by the max skill*1.5 cap? Or can I really boost it through the roof?

Assuming you have stat/skill/resonance/complex form all at 6... then you could (on average) boost a form by +4 with threading. If you use one service of a force 4 sprite to maintain that, then another service to directly aid the form you could get a total of +8 to your form (assuming there is no cap).

The more I look at it, threading really isn't a very good deal. A "all 6" player would on average get +4 dice due to threading... but at the price of drain and -2 dice to everythig (including whatever he is threading). Net, drain and +2 dice. Instead, you can easily summon force 4 sprite and get a service for +4 with no penalty. The only way threading makes sense is if you combine threading with a sprite directly aiding the form (and sustaining the threading)... but then you are way violating any sort of capping rule.

Pel

Alrighty then allow me to tear your argument to shreads.

Complex forms max out at the technomancers resonance. Your resonance is 18? thats nice the max rating for your complex forms is 18. Your resonance is 7 max rating 7. resonance 4 thats right you guessed it max rating 4.

Threading allows you to improvise forms you don't know or increase a form up to a max of resonance * 2.

The aiding and such done by sprites is done by registered sprites, not your average sprite (as specificaly stated under those services descriptions).

Now. Your arguments don't make alot of sense. Threading is bad because you have to resist drain and while sustaining it you have a -2 penalty. Hrm, damn I suppose mages should stop casint spells they have to sustain because its bad for them! Then you talk of summoning up a sprite and have it sustain and aid it. First off thats 2 services. Secondly it'd have to be a registered sprite. Lets just say you were talking about calling up a registered sprite. Give the form to it to sustain. wow no more -2 penalty. Have it aid that gives you its rating in bonus to the complex form for a number of combat turns equal to the sprites rating.

Now does the sprite aid do anything with the caps? Well considering it does not actualy increase the rating of the form, and meerly adds dice to it...its iffy.

Now whats so great about technomancers vs hackers.

Hacker Pro's

Stuff is cheap and easily available.
Have the ability of cyberware without it bothering their abbilities.
Can have others write programs for them or steal someone elses code.
Programs don't cost karma
Damage to the matrix persona is not done to them
Damage to icon is easily fixed
Rebooting if needed is very quick

Hacker Con's

Limits of hardware and software.
If they dont' have a program they have no way of doing it.
Programing times.

Technomancer Pro's

Resonance is not capped.
Echo's.
Threading to use forms the 'mancer doesn't have currently.
Haveing a sprite hash and deliver a file.
Sprites in general.
+2 dice to ALL matrix actions in VR.
threading to have better programs
complex forms are caped by resonance
no actual accessID so can't be traced by that
Sprites can't be screwed with by hackers
learning is quicker than programing

Technomancer Con's

Fading.
-2 dicepool penalty if they sustain a threaded form
karma cost for learning
Can not just steal programs for their forms
Have to learn from a sprite or another technomancer
cyberware interferes with resonance
Damage done to their icon is done to them personaly
Rebooting takes a long time
Leave behind a matrix sig (however it is noted this can only be seen by other resonance beings such as sprites and technomancers)


All in all if you actualy consider things? They're prety ballanced vs hackers. Hackers have their advantages and disadvantages. Technomancers have theirs. Kind of like, dare i say it, a street sammie vs a adept.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
+2 dice to ALL matrix actions in VR.

That benefit is not exclusive for Technomancers: Anyone running Hot ASIST gets that bonus... Technomancers just can't run Cold ASIST at all.

So Technomaners always get their brain cooked by Black IC, and are addicted to the Matrix, too.
Vector
Are Technomancers subject to the addiction rules since they run hot all the time?
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
+2 dice to ALL matrix actions in VR.

That benefit is not exclusive for Technomancers: Anyone running Hot ASIST gets that bonus... Technomancers just can't run Cold ASIST at all.

So Technomaners always get their brain cooked by Black IC, and are addicted to the Matrix, too.

Oh quite true forgot that.

Oh forgot the bonus of +2 dice to all matrix perception checks. This includes AR and VR
blakkie
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 21 2005, 10:17 AM)
So Technomaners always get their brain cooked by Black IC, and are addicted to the Matrix, too.

They do get grumpy and agitated when they are away from it. smile.gif (page 232)
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Vector)
Are Technomancers subject to the addiction rules since they run hot all the time?

There is nothing that states otherwise - if they abuse VR, their body will suffer.

QUOTE (blakkie)
They do get grumpy and agitated when they are away from it.

And they dislike static, too.

But that's not the critical point, that concerns AR - in VR, they always feed on a BTL strength signal.
Nikoli
oooh, the wonderfully cruel uses of a jammer....
hahnsoo
Ah, here's a question: Would a Technomancer be able to use a datajack or trodes to jack into a wired network with their full Technomancer abilities intact? I don't see why not, and I'm not seeing any rules against it. Then they'd be just like the old otaku, of course...
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Ah, here's a question: Would a Technomancer be able to use a datajack or trodes to jack into a wired network with their full Technomancer abilities intact? I don't see why not, and I'm not seeing any rules against it. Then they'd be just like the old otaku, of course...

Why even do that...have a buddy or even yourself connect a comlink to the wired network, access the wirednetwork through the commlink using the commlink as a gateway.
Nikoli
Yup, though I wonder if you could just carry a commlink and plug it into the network and use it as a WAP for gaining acess to the network.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 21 2005, 11:34 AM)
Ah, here's a question: Would a Technomancer be able to use a datajack or trodes to jack into a wired network with their full Technomancer abilities intact?  I don't see why not, and I'm not seeing any rules against it.  Then they'd be just like the old otaku, of course...

Why even do that...have a buddy or even yourself connect a comlink to the wired network, access the wirednetwork through the commlink using the commlink as a gateway.

Jammer, as stated above by Nikoli. A good Directional or Headjammer can cut you off completely.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 21 2005, 11:37 AM)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 21 2005, 11:34 AM)
Ah, here's a question: Would a Technomancer be able to use a datajack or trodes to jack into a wired network with their full Technomancer abilities intact?  I don't see why not, and I'm not seeing any rules against it.  Then they'd be just like the old otaku, of course...

Why even do that...have a buddy or even yourself connect a comlink to the wired network, access the wirednetwork through the commlink using the commlink as a gateway.

Jammer, as stated above by Nikoli. A good Directional or Headjammer can cut you off completely.

And?

If they're able to point a directional jammer at you you're already compromised and shouldn't be in the trix. I mean seriously why on earth is there going to be a directional jammer at all points in the wired trix pointing directly at you? come on now.

You know a good thor shot will cut you off from your body too.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 21 2005, 11:37 AM)
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Sep 21 2005, 11:34 AM)
Ah, here's a question: Would a Technomancer be able to use a datajack or trodes to jack into a wired network with their full Technomancer abilities intact?  I don't see why not, and I'm not seeing any rules against it.  Then they'd be just like the old otaku, of course...

Why even do that...have a buddy or even yourself connect a comlink to the wired network, access the wirednetwork through the commlink using the commlink as a gateway.

Jammer, as stated above by Nikoli. A good Directional or Headjammer can cut you off completely.

Not sure it wouldn't also screw a set of trodes...if not the DJ at the metal bits at the end (the cable coming out is optical), but that is all GM soft house rules territory.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
And?

If they're able to point a directional jammer at you you're already compromised and shouldn't be in the trix. I mean seriously why on earth is there going to be a directional jammer at all points in the wired trix pointing directly at you? come on now.

You know a good thor shot will cut you off from your body too.

*shrugs* Okay, then. An Area Jammer. Or even a dead zone. The point is that a technomancer can theoretically get jammed somehow, somewhere. Thus, it could be useful to have the ability to "jack in" to a Wired Matrix as opposed to using the Wireless Matrix. I'm simply wondering if a technomancer can do that, with the appropriate 'ware.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 21 2005, 12:10 PM)
And?

If they're able to point a directional jammer at you you're already compromised and shouldn't be in the trix.  I mean seriously why on earth is there going to be a directional jammer at all points in the wired trix pointing directly at you?  come on now.

You know a good thor shot will cut you off from your body too.

*shrugs* Okay, then. An Area Jammer. Or even a dead zone. The point is that a technomancer can theoretically get jammed somehow, somewhere. Thus, it could be useful to have the ability to "jack in" to a Wired Matrix as opposed to using the Wireless Matrix. I'm simply wondering if a technomancer can do that, with the appropriate 'ware.

I don't see why he couldn't. He wouldn't like it much all things considered if he was being jammed and or was in a dead zone. But I don't see anything against him using trodes and such...though it'd have to be modded out to be hotsim at the very least
Conskill
QUOTE
I'm simply wondering if a technomancer can do that, with the appropriate 'ware.

Why not? It worked for the previous generation, and they had to march uphill in the snow both ways to hack the Matrix with their minds. As others have pointed out, the utility of it is questionable.
blakkie
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 21 2005, 12:10 PM)
And?

If they're able to point a directional jammer at you you're already compromised and shouldn't be in the trix.  I mean seriously why on earth is there going to be a directional jammer at all points in the wired trix pointing directly at you?  come on now.

You know a good thor shot will cut you off from your body too.

*shrugs* Okay, then. An Area Jammer. Or even a dead zone. The point is that a technomancer can theoretically get jammed somehow, somewhere. Thus, it could be useful to have the ability to "jack in" to a Wired Matrix as opposed to using the Wireless Matrix. I'm simply wondering if a technomancer can do that, with the appropriate 'ware.

Apparently Dragons and all manner of things can wear trodes, so sure why not. Just more SR tech is magic stuff. wink.gif
Nikoli
or a basic commlink with a skinlink.
they hold it, plug it into the network.
bingo
Wasabi
QUOTE (Nikoli)
till you fail (or glitch) and drop even lower.

Then unload the Reality Filter, and load it again. It costs time that the Node can try to Analyze you but thats about the only negative.

I personally think a Reality Filter should count as a Node itself against the subscription limit of the Persona, but hey, maybe thats just me.
Vector
QUOTE (Wasabi)
I personally think a Reality Filter should count as a Node itself against the subscription limit of the Persona, but hey, maybe thats just me.

Over and above counting as a running program? Why? The active program limit is far more... well... limiting.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Vector)
QUOTE (Wasabi @ Sep 21 2005, 07:59 PM)
I personally think a Reality Filter should count as a Node itself against the subscription limit of the Persona, but hey, maybe thats just me.

Over and above counting as a running program? Why? The active program limit is far more... well... limiting.

With the +1 Response you can run your System Rating in additional programs at your base Response or unload programs to get the +1 from the Reality Filter back. (Such as in Combat when Response == Life!)

This means a Reality Filter, if given the time to keep loading and reloading until successful allows either the +1 increase to Response or effectively raises max programs by (System-1).
Pelaka
I shudder to think of the possiblities of a critcal glich with a reality filter would be. If I was the GM I assure you reloading the program would be the last thing on your mind smile.gif.

Pel
Wasabi
I shudder to imagine any critical glitch.
Azralon
One of my favorite reasons to be a techno is the ability to walk past cyberscanners and (most) astrally perceiving mages while looking like a completely normal dude.
Arkangel
Personally, I'm still torn between playing a Hacker or a Technomancer.

I'm leaning towards a mancer because I like the concept of a Living Persona and how sprites resemble virtual pets that can be registered into servitude. It definitely has a more personalized feel than a Hacker's programs/agents. Having your sprites follow a common theme adds a lot of character too.
On the other hand, a Technomancer lacks the cyberpunk feel that makes the well established decker/hacker a fan favorite. Old school or not, there's just something cool about slapping on the trodes or sticking that plug in your head.
In the long run, the mancer seems like the stronger, more versatile of the two. It just lacks the flavor of a decker for me and having cyberware as a detriment is a major let down. Maybe it's just too new of a concept and one that will be more desirable once it's more fleshed out in future sourcebooks.
It's those awesome sprites that's making the decision so hard. :lol

Clark
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