 Skills, I used to drive cars... |
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 Sep 22 2005, 06:43 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751  |
Okay, when I started reading SR4 I thought that some sections would only be a touch-up to run smoother with the new dice mechanic. Well the changes are here and I find myself slightly befuddled by the logic in the skill section.
Firearm and vehicle skills became concentrated into broader skills. While athletics, negotiations, electronics, computers, conjuring, and sorcery etc. spawned schools of sub-skills. Other skills just took a drastic shift when you look at its linked attribute, running&climbing+strength? In addition all combat skills being linked to agility just doesn't seem right to me. All these skill changes just didn't make the game simpler for me. |
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Sep 22 2005, 06:50 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
What aids you more in combat? Hand eye cordination and agility, or brute strength? What aids you in climbing more? agility or strength?
And I think the consolidating of some skills and breaking up of others was good. But in all honesty it realy doesn't matter with the advent of skill groups. |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:07 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 22-September 05 Member No.: 7,771 |
I dunno, I kinda like how some of the weapons were grouped better, same with driving, but at the same time it's kinda weird because if you meet someone they're not gonna know how to drive both a car/bike/etc. But ah well.
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Sep 22 2005, 07:25 PM
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#4
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I don´t know about combat, but I can categoricly say that you are much more aided by strenght when climbing. I do a lot of climbing in my spare time. Strenght and skill is all that matters, really.
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Sep 22 2005, 07:31 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Indeed. Even more so in a world of public transportation. Its nice for a rigger, sure, but it doesn't always make sense. If you fly a jet... you generally don't also know how to fly a heli or a VTOL craft. Might apply to water craft might not, I don't know all that much about a subs controls compared to... say a motor boat.
Things like...say swimming.. aren't really affected by physical strength, it makes more sense for it to be linked to body, much like diving. Running and climbing to strength? Sure, why not. Why....WHY is survival linked to WILLPOWER!?? :S Unarmed, Clubs, and blades... well this is a cross roads for me. If running and climbing can be linked to strength... why can't clubs and blades and fists? Or perhaps leave it open and allow a character to use both or allow an edge to use one or the other. Either one makes sense.. and though it makes agility a high powered stat compared to strength or body... its not too bad and I can live with it. :) Linking archery and thrown weapons to agility... much better. Linking it to strength in SR3 ... was just dumb.... And wtf? Why is parachuting linked to BODY?!?! :eek: |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:35 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
Okay, gotta put my experience on the line here... I've been a sword and board SCA man for years. Speed and power matter a hell of a lot more than coordination. You watch boxing? Light-weigths jus open up a can half way into a round. Agility does not matter in melee. Running/Climbing-As long as you have reasonable strength its irrelevant. My climbing experience was more that endurance was more of a factor when making a climb. I did not perform the same at the end of a climb as I did at the beginning. Ditto for running, some people are quick, runners can just keep on going after 20 yards. Body seems more of a match on these. Just think of it this way, with all these changes I'm trying to find the new logic behind why they made these associations. I'm used to the old, so if its not obvious why they changed things I'm going to question things. Plus it just seems the designers lumped a lot of things under one attribute. The system seems to try for simplicity and a shorter skill list with shorter names seems simple enough to me. Why 'Pilot Groundcraft' over just 'Groundcraft'? I don't disagree with all of the changes but I would like to see where other people are having trouble with skills. |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:40 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Read the section entitled "The Abstract Nature of Rules" they explain that the rules are more based around gameplay as much as realism. Hence why things like that are grouped together and not a seperate skill for each. In all honesty its a bit of a gameplay improvement to me. Don't have to keep track of 7 different skills (made up number mind you) for things that fly.
The swimming thing? meh...i'm not sure it would be linked to body. Strength definately as you're using strength to propell yourself allong and such and it does build musscle. Body for diving is cause of the preasure that are placed on your body and its resistance to the effects of it. Don't realy have that with swiming so yeah strength.
Why shouldn't it be? the next best thing would be logic but willpower works well I think. The raw ability to press on when needed. The ability to stay cool and collected. Force of will to do whats needed, such as eating bugs. Things like that.
You can be the strongest man in the world but if you don't have the agility or cordination to land that punch you still suck. Agility linking to this is i think linked to the attack itself and being able to sneak that blow in there past the persons defenses. The damage comes from strength however. But thats my take on why its agility and not strength.
True.
I can only assume this is dealing with the body taking a beating when it hits the ground, and the lack of oxygen all the way up there to start off with ect. Beyond that I'm rather clueless so *shrugs* Not sure what else I'd base it off of. |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:45 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Depends. I'd say agility or strength have a factor, depending on your fighting style. Some use seeming wild, hard swings to drive an opponent back and keep on the offensive, not giving the opponent a chance to even attempt to get through an opening. Others use speed and maneuvers that rely heavily on quick wrist and forearm movement, less heavy handed but leaving fewer openings and testing for weaknesses.
Someone skilled in swinging around a lead pipe or a 2 by 4 with a nail in it will attack differently than someone who prefers quarterstaff/bo fighting. Thats why I'd say, depending on how they describe their fighting styles, I'd give them either strength or agility. Not in my current game, but perhaps in the future. |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:48 PM
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#9
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Because Willpower needed some linking love? That i get more than the Body always mysterious Parachuting link. "Mentally tough" is a great asset when dealing with the elements, keeping your resolve and wits about you to do the things that need to be done. *shrug* But getting back to Str, i don't like that they took it off Heavy Weapons. Not so much for what makes more sense, but more for balance and that it makes enough sense. *shrug* However Str is linked into all the medieval weapons and unarmed combat, just as damage an/or range. EDIT: Oh, and i'll give a 2 thumbs up to Str for Climbing & Running. Even though a decent case could be made for Body for Running (because Running covers endurance and sprinting), Body's role of soaking damage is so critical that it needs the linkage less than Str. |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:49 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
As I've also done a bit of swordfighting and such in my time (mainly with the gladius and rapier). Speed and power are important. But speed is not nessicarily based off of strength. Power is, but the power is in the blow landing. And I can tell you right now if you have poor co-ordination you'll be picked appart by someone who has good co-ordination and speed even if you're as strong as say Jessee Ventura or Hulk Hogan. Strength matters in doing damage with the blow, it is not as much a factor in landing it. Though I will conceed that to block effectively sometimes you do need a bit of strength :). As for the running and climbing. I can see that. However if you're not strong enough, atleast in climbing, there are certain things you can't realy do. This is asside from the fact that most shadowrunners aren't going to be doing really long climbs or running for long periods. But I can definately see your point. And the pilot groundcraft gives you a better idea of what the skill actualy is. |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:55 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
Wow, thats not a biased survey, 1 i like it option (and a sarcastic oen at that!) and 5 negative options.
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Sep 22 2005, 07:57 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
I'd have to agree (they did make some nifty improvements on the system I must say though). |
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Sep 22 2005, 07:59 PM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Parachuting could well be linked to Intuition...
"Pull the goddam cord now! NOWWWW!!!" *splat* |
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Sep 22 2005, 08:01 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Ya, i just hit the Null button which is what i usually do on loaded, "statement" polls. :wobble:
:) |
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Sep 22 2005, 08:09 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 16-June 03 From: Da Burgh, PA Member No.: 4,751 |
I'm opinionated not a professional pollster.
One change I thought they should have made dealt with negotiation. It should be under willpower. Ex: "I don't care how many kids you got that's too much for a car without seatbelts." Negotiation is part good argument, part bastard. Plus it gives some love to willpower, which lost all its magical skills. |
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Sep 22 2005, 08:18 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Well I'm kinda wondering, and please don't keel haul me for it, but why must a state have a bunch of linked skills to be worth while? Willpower as is I think is a great attribute, and I realy don't see any attribute I could just do without in general (though strength has a hefty case in my opinion but then again I don't build alot of melee characters). But Negotiation is still more charisma based than willpower. "Buisness men are the worst, because they automaticaly assume the other guy is trying to screw them on the deal. So they've got to find a way to screw the other guy a little bit faster and a little bit harder" - George Carlin (forgive me if i misquoted slightly) Negotiation isn't so much being able to stand firm. Its more of 'how can i convince this guy to accept my deal instead of what he's offering me'. Standing firm can be a method to do that certainly, but there are other things such as offering up something, sweet talking, embeleshing, showing cleavage, ect ect ect, most of which have nothing to do at all with willpower. |
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Sep 22 2005, 08:18 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
EDIT: ...and i treated the poll as such. I didn't bring it up myself because i've seen much worse here. I just hit Null and posted my comments. :)
Actually you should check the Social Skills section closer, Willpower is in that mix. But on the 'defensive' side, which is what you are making the case for i think. |
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Sep 23 2005, 03:43 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 617 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Orlando Member No.: 4,644 |
SwordFish Mustardball!! :-D :smokin:
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Sep 25 2005, 01:51 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
I probably shouldn't, but I'm going to throw in a coupe of points here. Fencing. It's not about the strength, it's about the speed and the finesse. Tai Chi. Evasion and redirection, coupled with internal energy. Physical strength really isn't an issue. My point, of course, being that whilst strength is a big factor in some forms of melee, it isn't in all of them. From what I've seen, I'd personally go with pairing combat skills with an appropriate attribute for the character's talents. Taking various martial arts as an example, you could couple Boxing to strength and, oh, capoeira to agility. Heck, you could couple Tai Chi to Willpower without too much stretching of credibility (any art where a 5'2", 140lb guy can send a 6'. 200lb biker clean over a pub table with a shove gets my vote for willpower... <shudder>...) |
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Sep 25 2005, 03:46 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Agreed. Perhaps they will cover things like this in one of the rule books. Perhaps in Arsenal?
Edit: Or perhaps, rather than just linking all of a melee skill to one stat, they expand and allow different maneuvers or attack types to use different stats. Wrestling/Subdueing might use strength rather than agility (and have strength as the defensive stat rather than reaction or agility). Tackling, those neat Akido maneuvers, and various other things would be interesting. So a character could specialize in a particular area very well (like a female wrestling troll?... **shutter**) and add flavor rather than just relying completely on agility for everything combat related. Yes Strength adds damage... but compared to every other stat its not as much of an old friend as it should be. |
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Sep 25 2005, 03:52 PM
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#21
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Supplements that redefine the main system are still a bad idea.
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Sep 25 2005, 04:01 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
IF you say so. Cannon Companion completely replaced unarmed combat with martial arts and it didn't really change game balance... at all.... in fact it allowed mundane martial artist to do some wicked cool combat gimicks, normally limited to adepts, without unbalancing... anything as far as I knew. Then again... I was never the combat munchkin kinda character... nor do I do anything but frown upon ubber combat munchkin characters... and perhaps aim for them first sometimes....
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Sep 25 2005, 04:15 PM
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#23
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And as written, that system was unbalancing and inflexible.
If you just ignored the new skills and made any maneuvers available to the old melee skills, while allowing specializations to options and maneuvers, it worked out much nicer. Surprisingly, the latter didn't redefine the original system, but added new possibilitys to those who wanted. As for SR4 it was stated that supplements will add things instead of replacing them - hopefully, this will be so. |
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Sep 25 2005, 05:53 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Eh, whatever works for you. :)
I'll also add that its not replacing anything, merely adding onto the system to allow different stats for different uses of the same skill. I notice that many uses of what I just stated (wrestling/subdueing, etc) are not listed, nor even mentioned in the core book. Even allowing different melee styles isn't really repalcing anything, melee skills just become "Usually Agility" rather than just Agility. Happens rather often with a variatey of skills to use multiple stats for different things. I'm not saying that they should allow someone to attack with a Body+unarmed pool, but allow the other stats (or maybe just strength and agility) to play a more direct role. Strength needs some linking love, man. :) :love: |
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Sep 25 2005, 05:59 PM
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#25
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No, it doesn't - check out those Subduing rules. ;)
Don't get hugged by Trolls. |
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