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Arz
Okay, when I started reading SR4 I thought that some sections would only be a touch-up to run smoother with the new dice mechanic. Well the changes are here and I find myself slightly befuddled by the logic in the skill section.

Firearm and vehicle skills became concentrated into broader skills. While athletics, negotiations, electronics, computers, conjuring, and sorcery etc. spawned schools of sub-skills.

Other skills just took a drastic shift when you look at its linked attribute, running&climbing+strength? In addition all combat skills being linked to agility just doesn't seem right to me.

All these skill changes just didn't make the game simpler for me.
Shadow_Prophet
What aids you more in combat? Hand eye cordination and agility, or brute strength? What aids you in climbing more? agility or strength?

And I think the consolidating of some skills and breaking up of others was good.

But in all honesty it realy doesn't matter with the advent of skill groups.
DarkShadow
I dunno, I kinda like how some of the weapons were grouped better, same with driving, but at the same time it's kinda weird because if you meet someone they're not gonna know how to drive both a car/bike/etc. But ah well.
mintcar
I donīt know about combat, but I can categoricly say that you are much more aided by strenght when climbing. I do a lot of climbing in my spare time. Strenght and skill is all that matters, really.
Xenith
Indeed. Even more so in a world of public transportation. Its nice for a rigger, sure, but it doesn't always make sense. If you fly a jet... you generally don't also know how to fly a heli or a VTOL craft. Might apply to water craft might not, I don't know all that much about a subs controls compared to... say a motor boat.

Things like...say swimming.. aren't really affected by physical strength, it makes more sense for it to be linked to body, much like diving. Running and climbing to strength? Sure, why not.

Why....WHY is survival linked to WILLPOWER!?? sarcastic.gif

Unarmed, Clubs, and blades... well this is a cross roads for me. If running and climbing can be linked to strength... why can't clubs and blades and fists? Or perhaps leave it open and allow a character to use both or allow an edge to use one or the other. Either one makes sense.. and though it makes agility a high powered stat compared to strength or body... its not too bad and I can live with it. smile.gif

Linking archery and thrown weapons to agility... much better. Linking it to strength in SR3 ... was just dumb....

And wtf? Why is parachuting linked to BODY?!?! eek.gif
Arz
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
What aids you more in combat? Hand eye cordination and agility, or brute strength? What aids you in climbing more? agility or strength?

And I think the consolidating of some skills and breaking up of others was good.

But in all honesty it realy doesn't matter with the advent of skill groups.

Okay, gotta put my experience on the line here...

I've been a sword and board SCA man for years. Speed and power matter a hell of a lot more than coordination. You watch boxing? Light-weigths jus open up a can half way into a round. Agility does not matter in melee.

Running/Climbing-As long as you have reasonable strength its irrelevant. My climbing experience was more that endurance was more of a factor when making a climb. I did not perform the same at the end of a climb as I did at the beginning. Ditto for running, some people are quick, runners can just keep on going after 20 yards. Body seems more of a match on these.

Just think of it this way, with all these changes I'm trying to find the new logic behind why they made these associations. I'm used to the old, so if its not obvious why they changed things I'm going to question things. Plus it just seems the designers lumped a lot of things under one attribute.

The system seems to try for simplicity and a shorter skill list with shorter names seems simple enough to me. Why 'Pilot Groundcraft' over just 'Groundcraft'? I don't disagree with all of the changes but I would like to see where other people are having trouble with skills.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE
Indeed. Even more so in a world of public transportation. Its nice for a rigger, sure, but it doesn't always make sense. If you fly a jet... you generally don't also know how to fly a heli or a VTOL craft. Might apply to water craft might not, I don't know all that much about a subs controls compared to... say a motor boat.


Read the section entitled "The Abstract Nature of Rules" they explain that the rules are more based around gameplay as much as realism. Hence why things like that are grouped together and not a seperate skill for each. In all honesty its a bit of a gameplay improvement to me. Don't have to keep track of 7 different skills (made up number mind you) for things that fly.

QUOTE
Things like...say swimming.. aren't really affected by physical strength, it makes more sense for it to be linked to body, much like diving. Running and climbing to strength? Sure, why not.


The swimming thing? meh...i'm not sure it would be linked to body. Strength definately as you're using strength to propell yourself allong and such and it does build musscle. Body for diving is cause of the preasure that are placed on your body and its resistance to the effects of it. Don't realy have that with swiming so yeah strength.

QUOTE
Why....WHY is survival linked to WILLPOWER!?? 


Why shouldn't it be? the next best thing would be logic but willpower works well I think. The raw ability to press on when needed. The ability to stay cool and collected. Force of will to do whats needed, such as eating bugs. Things like that.

QUOTE
Unarmed, Clubs, and blades... well this is a cross roads for me. If running and climbing can be linked to strength... why can't clubs and blades and fists? Or perhaps leave it open and allow a character to use both or allow an edge to use one or the other. Either one makes sense.. and though it makes agility a high powered stat compared to strength or body... its not too bad and I can live with it. 


You can be the strongest man in the world but if you don't have the agility or cordination to land that punch you still suck. Agility linking to this is i think linked to the attack itself and being able to sneak that blow in there past the persons defenses. The damage comes from strength however. But thats my take on why its agility and not strength.

QUOTE
Linking archery and thrown weapons to agility... much better. Linking it to strength in SR3 ... was just dumb....


True.

QUOTE
And wtf? Why is parachuting linked to BODY?!?! 


I can only assume this is dealing with the body taking a beating when it hits the ground, and the lack of oxygen all the way up there to start off with ect. Beyond that I'm rather clueless so *shrugs* Not sure what else I'd base it off of.
Xenith
Depends. I'd say agility or strength have a factor, depending on your fighting style. Some use seeming wild, hard swings to drive an opponent back and keep on the offensive, not giving the opponent a chance to even attempt to get through an opening. Others use speed and maneuvers that rely heavily on quick wrist and forearm movement, less heavy handed but leaving fewer openings and testing for weaknesses.

Someone skilled in swinging around a lead pipe or a 2 by 4 with a nail in it will attack differently than someone who prefers quarterstaff/bo fighting.

Thats why I'd say, depending on how they describe their fighting styles, I'd give them either strength or agility. Not in my current game, but perhaps in the future.
blakkie
QUOTE (Xenith @ Sep 22 2005, 01:31 PM)
Why....WHY is survival linked to WILLPOWER!??  sarcastic.gif

Because Willpower needed some linking love? That i get more than the Body always mysterious Parachuting link. "Mentally tough" is a great asset when dealing with the elements, keeping your resolve and wits about you to do the things that need to be done. *shrug*

But getting back to Str, i don't like that they took it off Heavy Weapons. Not so much for what makes more sense, but more for balance and that it makes enough sense. *shrug*

However Str is linked into all the medieval weapons and unarmed combat, just as damage an/or range.

EDIT: Oh, and i'll give a 2 thumbs up to Str for Climbing & Running. Even though a decent case could be made for Body for Running (because Running covers endurance and sprinting), Body's role of soaking damage is so critical that it needs the linkage less than Str.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Arz)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 22 2005, 02:50 PM)
What aids you more in combat?  Hand eye cordination and agility, or brute strength?  What aids you in climbing more?  agility or strength?

And I think the consolidating of some skills and breaking up of others was good.

But in all honesty it realy doesn't matter with the advent of skill groups.

Okay, gotta put my experience on the line here...

I've been a sword and board SCA man for years. Speed and power matter a hell of a lot more than coordination. You watch boxing? Light-weigths jus open up a can half way into a round. Agility does not matter in melee.

Running/Climbing-As long as you have reasonable strength its irrelevant. My climbing experience was more that endurance was more of a factor when making a climb. I did not perform the same at the end of a climb as I did at the beginning. Ditto for running, some people are quick, runners can just keep on going after 20 yards. Body seems more of a match on these.

Just think of it this way, with all these changes I'm trying to find the new logic behind why they made these associations. I'm used to the old, so if its not obvious why they changed things I'm going to question things. Plus it just seems the designers lumped a lot of things under one attribute.

The system seems to try for simplicity and a shorter skill list with shorter names seems simple enough to me. Why 'Pilot Groundcraft' over just 'Groundcraft'? I don't disagree with all of the changes but I would like to see where other people are having trouble with skills.

As I've also done a bit of swordfighting and such in my time (mainly with the gladius and rapier). Speed and power are important. But speed is not nessicarily based off of strength. Power is, but the power is in the blow landing.

And I can tell you right now if you have poor co-ordination you'll be picked appart by someone who has good co-ordination and speed even if you're as strong as say Jessee Ventura or Hulk Hogan. Strength matters in doing damage with the blow, it is not as much a factor in landing it. Though I will conceed that to block effectively sometimes you do need a bit of strength smile.gif.

As for the running and climbing. I can see that. However if you're not strong enough, atleast in climbing, there are certain things you can't realy do. This is asside from the fact that most shadowrunners aren't going to be doing really long climbs or running for long periods. But I can definately see your point.

And the pilot groundcraft gives you a better idea of what the skill actualy is.
Halabis
Wow, thats not a biased survey, 1 i like it option (and a sarcastic oen at that!) and 5 negative options.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Halabis)
Wow, thats not a biased survey, 1 i like it option (and a sarcastic oen at that!) and 5 negative options.

I'd have to agree (they did make some nifty improvements on the system I must say though).
JongWK
Parachuting could well be linked to Intuition...

"Pull the goddam cord now! NOWWWW!!!" *splat*
blakkie
QUOTE (Halabis @ Sep 22 2005, 01:55 PM)
Wow, thats not a biased survey, 1 i like it option (and a sarcastic oen at that!) and 5 negative options.

Ya, i just hit the Null button which is what i usually do on loaded, "statement" polls. wobble.gif

QUOTE
Parachuting could well be linked to Intuition...

"Pull the goddam cord now! NOWWWW!!!" *splat*


smile.gif
Arz
I'm opinionated not a professional pollster.

One change I thought they should have made dealt with negotiation. It should be under willpower. Ex:

"I don't care how many kids you got that's too much for a car without seatbelts."

Negotiation is part good argument, part bastard. Plus it gives some love to willpower, which lost all its magical skills.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Arz)
I'm opinionated not a professional pollster.

One change I thought they should have made dealt with negotiation. It should be under willpower. Ex:

"I don't care how many kids you got that's too much for a car without seatbelts."

Negotiation is part good argument, part bastard. Plus it gives some love to willpower, which lost all its magical skills.

Well I'm kinda wondering, and please don't keel haul me for it, but why must a state have a bunch of linked skills to be worth while?

Willpower as is I think is a great attribute, and I realy don't see any attribute I could just do without in general (though strength has a hefty case in my opinion but then again I don't build alot of melee characters).

But Negotiation is still more charisma based than willpower.

"Buisness men are the worst, because they automaticaly assume the other guy is trying to screw them on the deal. So they've got to find a way to screw the other guy a little bit faster and a little bit harder" - George Carlin (forgive me if i misquoted slightly)

Negotiation isn't so much being able to stand firm. Its more of 'how can i convince this guy to accept my deal instead of what he's offering me'. Standing firm can be a method to do that certainly, but there are other things such as offering up something, sweet talking, embeleshing, showing cleavage, ect ect ect, most of which have nothing to do at all with willpower.
blakkie
QUOTE (Arz @ Sep 22 2005, 02:09 PM)
I'm opinionated not a professional pollster.


EDIT: ...and i treated the poll as such. I didn't bring it up myself because i've seen much worse here. I just hit Null and posted my comments. smile.gif

QUOTE
One change I thought they should have made dealt with negotiation. It should be under willpower. Ex:

"I don't care how many kids you got that's too much for a car without seatbelts."

Negotiation is part good argument, part bastard. Plus it gives some love to willpower, which lost all its magical skills.

Actually you should check the Social Skills section closer, Willpower is in that mix. But on the 'defensive' side, which is what you are making the case for i think.
Magus
SwordFish Mustardball!! biggrin.gif smokin.gif
DrJest
QUOTE
I've been a sword and board SCA man for years. Speed and power matter a hell of a lot more than coordination. You watch boxing? Light-weigths jus open up a can half way into a round. Agility does not matter in melee.


I probably shouldn't, but I'm going to throw in a coupe of points here.

Fencing. It's not about the strength, it's about the speed and the finesse.

Tai Chi. Evasion and redirection, coupled with internal energy. Physical strength really isn't an issue.

My point, of course, being that whilst strength is a big factor in some forms of melee, it isn't in all of them.

From what I've seen, I'd personally go with pairing combat skills with an appropriate attribute for the character's talents. Taking various martial arts as an example, you could couple Boxing to strength and, oh, capoeira to agility. Heck, you could couple Tai Chi to Willpower without too much stretching of credibility (any art where a 5'2", 140lb guy can send a 6'. 200lb biker clean over a pub table with a shove gets my vote for willpower... <shudder>...)
Xenith
Agreed. Perhaps they will cover things like this in one of the rule books. Perhaps in Arsenal?

Edit: Or perhaps, rather than just linking all of a melee skill to one stat, they expand and allow different maneuvers or attack types to use different stats. Wrestling/Subdueing might use strength rather than agility (and have strength as the defensive stat rather than reaction or agility). Tackling, those neat Akido maneuvers, and various other things would be interesting. So a character could specialize in a particular area very well (like a female wrestling troll?... **shutter**) and add flavor rather than just relying completely on agility for everything combat related. Yes Strength adds damage... but compared to every other stat its not as much of an old friend as it should be.
Rotbart van Dainig
Supplements that redefine the main system are still a bad idea.
Xenith
IF you say so. Cannon Companion completely replaced unarmed combat with martial arts and it didn't really change game balance... at all.... in fact it allowed mundane martial artist to do some wicked cool combat gimicks, normally limited to adepts, without unbalancing... anything as far as I knew. Then again... I was never the combat munchkin kinda character... nor do I do anything but frown upon ubber combat munchkin characters... and perhaps aim for them first sometimes....
Rotbart van Dainig
And as written, that system was unbalancing and inflexible.

If you just ignored the new skills and made any maneuvers available to the old melee skills, while allowing specializations to options and maneuvers, it worked out much nicer.

Surprisingly, the latter didn't redefine the original system, but added new possibilitys to those who wanted.


As for SR4 it was stated that supplements will add things instead of replacing them - hopefully, this will be so.
Xenith
Eh, whatever works for you. smile.gif

I'll also add that its not replacing anything, merely adding onto the system to allow different stats for different uses of the same skill. I notice that many uses of what I just stated (wrestling/subdueing, etc) are not listed, nor even mentioned in the core book.

Even allowing different melee styles isn't really repalcing anything, melee skills just become "Usually Agility" rather than just Agility. Happens rather often with a variatey of skills to use multiple stats for different things. I'm not saying that they should allow someone to attack with a Body+unarmed pool, but allow the other stats (or maybe just strength and agility) to play a more direct role.

Strength needs some linking love, man. smile.gif love.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
No, it doesn't - check out those Subduing rules. wink.gif

Don't get hugged by Trolls.
Xenith
I conceed that particular point. Strength + net hits with body as a "threshold"... holy crap...

And then... the stun damage equal to strength option... I think that just made me happy inside. grinbig.gif
Eagle
I love the new system, because while it says that certain skill are linked to certain attributes, you can as a GM ask for different combinations. Something go wrong in climb, make a reaction + climb to grab a ledge before you fall.

It works more like the original WoD, which was great for simple gaming. I'm just hoping that in the long term SR4 doesn't fall down in the same way which is that it became an optimisation game, no point in pushing up certain skills beyond a set point as you'll always hit at the level and no differentation at the top skill levels.

Ever played with a character who wanted to be a world class sprinter and have the skills to back it up. How do you decide who wins the race? Especially when luck comes into the equation, while in the real world, the runner's winning order tends to be pretty consistent over several races. I guess I can't do that with SR4 or most systems for that matter
Dogsoup
'A' and 'D'.
DragginSPADE
QUOTE (Xenith)
Why....WHY is survival linked to WILLPOWER!??  sarcastic.gif 


Linking survival to willpower is completely logical. In military survival schools, they teach that the will to live is the crucial factor that can get a person through a survival situation.
Azralon
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Don't get hugged by Trolls.

That's one of those "Never trust an elf" kinda things, ain't it?
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
What aids you more in combat? Hand eye cordination and agility, or brute strength? What aids you in climbing more? agility or strength?


I'm not going to say agility was an inappropriate attribute for it, but strength is just as appropriate for close combat. If we start getting into different styles of close combat I'm sure we could all justify almost any attribute for a link attribute. But strength isn't just raw power its knowing how to use your muscles to their best advantage as well. Sure I can justify agility for close combat and well virtually any physical skill, but that doesn't mean it would be balanced for agility to have them all. The main reason to oppose agility is because it is too much the uber stat as is. It covers way to many skills so taking a couple off the list that could be logically seen elsewhere would be a good idea I think.
blakkie
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 25 2005, 01:59 PM)
Don't get hugged by Trolls.

That's one of those "Never trust an elf" kinda things, ain't it?

The proper saying is "Never overcook an Elf."
Crusher Bob
Actually, as a white meat, elves tolerate overcooking quite well. Of course, with the high fat content of most metahuman flesh, you are better off grilling or broiling to help drain some of that fat off. Of course, you then risk overcooking... Of course, most wild metahumans have so many toxins in their bodies as to not be worth the effort. Growing your own free-range metahumans in a controlled environment produces the best results. Or you could just grow them in a vat, like most other food...
Feshy
QUOTE
The proper saying is "Never overcook an Elf."


That's why you buy RFID's with environment sensors, and hide them in some dandelions to get them inside the elf. Subscribe it to your PAN, and you'll get a message when the proper internal temperature is reached. Even rating 1 will do you, and that 25 yen will be a difference you can taste!

Wait... I play an elf...
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Sep 22 2005, 01:50 PM)
What aids you more in combat?  Hand eye cordination and agility, or brute strength?  What aids you in climbing more?  agility or strength?


I'm not going to say agility was an inappropriate attribute for it, but strength is just as appropriate for close combat. If we start getting into different styles of close combat I'm sure we could all justify almost any attribute for a link attribute. But strength isn't just raw power its knowing how to use your muscles to their best advantage as well. Sure I can justify agility for close combat and well virtually any physical skill, but that doesn't mean it would be balanced for agility to have them all. The main reason to oppose agility is because it is too much the uber stat as is. It covers way to many skills so taking a couple off the list that could be logically seen elsewhere would be a good idea I think.

I'm not going to argue the strength vs agility argument anymore because I've made my point.

However using the reason, agility has more skills linked to it so skills should be taken away is well, silly. Especialy when you start grouping unarmed combat with strength essentialy making strength count twice. *shrugs* agility isn't the end all be all stat like everyone thinks it is. Willpower isn't 'teh suck' nor is body or strength. Agility has lots of uses skill wise, but it has little applications outside of that. Body, strength, willpower all those have other applications outside of skills which agility does not.
Fortune
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Sep 25 2005, 01:59 PM)
Don't get hugged by Trolls.

That's one of those "Never trust an elf" kinda things, ain't it?

No, trust me, it's not. wink.gif
Synner667
Well, considering how much of the Aeon mechanics seems to be used in SR4, I'd prefer to use their skill system.


Really, any GM worth his mettle can re-write the rules/skills/system to reflect his own thoughts - that's the realm of "House Rules".

I did lots of that with SR3 [which I thought looked pretty, but was a waste of effort as a Rules edition] and will probably do that a lot with SR4 [as/if/when my Deluxe Edition gets to me - mmmm].

Peter
cx2
Okay, regarding agility...

I'm going to be making references to visual things, if you've read the thread where I mention I'm blind these are things before my sight loss... not all that long ago really...

For sword fights you said you were a "sword and board man". I assume this means shield. First, you admit speed matters - that comes under agility. There's no argument that games like cricket or rounders (Americanised version = baseball) need good coordination to hit the ball. This doesn't necessarily need finesse, you just have to get the bat in the right place at the right time (hard enough in itself). Now imagine that the bat is a sword, and the ball is the opponent (for attack) or the enemy's sword (for parrying). Coordination and speed? Very much linked, poor coordination means you don't get the sword in the right place or get it there at the wrong time.

Secondly I remember seeing reenacters fighting with sword and shield, most of the blocking is done with shield right? I also had the fortune to see two guys fighting at the Royal Armouries museum in Leeds in the style of the average man at the time of Shakespeare, sword in right hand and dagger in the left. I was startled how much faster it went without the big shield getting in the way, daggers blocked swings and swords made attacks. It was all I could do to keep up with the action, and this was with full sight. This isn't quite like fights in Shadowrun with swords, but is closer than having a big blocky shield on one arm. The critical thing there was to keep the speed and momentum up, this being represented by agility.

As for climbing, we're talking about scaling protective walls here. Smaller than even the smallest indoor wall I'd guess, most of the time. Imagine that agility represents sense of balance here, more important because there will be fewer (and lesser quality) hand holds in a wall for protection than even a natural cliff. Strength is important I would agree, but as long as you can haul your own weight it's more important that you don't fall back down.

Just a couple of practical suggestions. I think leaving strength mostly for damage is sensible since it gives it a clear and defined role, with agility being needed for many physical tasks.

I also think willpower for survival is very fitting, and body for parachuting is interesting... Maybe represents your body's ability to sustain the G forces involved? Maybe the chute deployment is automatic based on altitude in 2070, and you just have to make sure you don't have a heart attack, pass out from the Gs...? (or something a little unpleasant in the trouser department? grin)
Xenith
Interestingly enough, I've also found some slight paralells in the SR4 rules rework from SR3 and the rules set up in Alternity. Odd that Alternity has such a bad rep in many places... I'm rather fond of it. smile.gif
Tzeentch
SR4 is the new World of Darkness rules using d6 instead of d10 and more resisted rolls. It's uncanny how many mechanics are identical (even phrased in the same manner). Too bad they didn't also utilize the idea of Power, Finesse, and Resistance spread of attributes. frown.gif

That said, I think the SR4 system is a bit more "gearhead" and open to tinkering. smile.gif
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Xenith)
Interestingly enough, I've also found some slight paralells in the SR4 rules rework from SR3 and the rules set up in Alternity. Odd that Alternity has such a bad rep in many places... I'm rather fond of it. smile.gif

Woo! Alternity rocks. too bad its a dead system now adays frown.gif So hard to find the core books most of the time.
Xenith
I have the PHB for alternity, I got lucky and found it in a half price book store. I've read many of the other books as well after I looked at it. Its a nice Sci-Fi system... which you could technically use for any sort of setting and work rather well. It seems to mix many different bits of various sci-fi movies you've seen over the years with a seemingly more realistic touch.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Xenith)
I have the PHB for alternity, I got lucky and found it in a half price book store. I've read many of the other books as well after I looked at it. Its a nice Sci-Fi system... which you could technically use for any sort of setting and work rather well. It seems to mix many different bits of various sci-fi movies you've seen over the years with a seemingly more realistic touch.

Best part with it is that you can adapt the system to anything very easily. Its far more versitile than d20 in all respects. It ends up being realy great gameplay wise.
Xenith
And, indeed, the only problem is finding players for it. Then again... I seem to be at a disadvantage being in Wichita, Kansas. smile.gif
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