 Adepts and Cyberware, Maybe I missed some thing, I hope |
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 Sep 27 2005, 11:59 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860  |
I see vary little that states what adepts lose for installing cyberware. Just that many points in magic to put in to adept powers. So tell me, other then the fact its munchkin, why wouldn't the the adept take a one point hit and get the cyberware that is cheaper in magic cost to him. Then stack it in with his adept powers. Only taking the best from both cyberware and adept powers.
example: Smartlink 0.1 Vision Magnification 0.1 Reflex Recorder- Skill 0.1 Enhance Articulation 0.3 There is +4 pistols and not range penalties for far less then a magic point and 52,000 Even if this gets them up to the skill max, or dosen't stack with adept powers it would open up them up to buy adept power in other places. This is just a simple example. I am sure there are others. so tell me I am wrong or that I missed something please. |
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Sep 28 2005, 12:12 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
You can get the benefits of the smartlink and vision mag non cyber now. Just get contact lenses....And Enh articulation does not add to combat anymore, only physical skills linked to physical attributes...
But I agree, where imp reflex is 3 points at lvl 2 for an adept, he can get it for 1 essence in synaptic boosters. Or Imp attribute, M toner is .2 essence, you can pack in a lot more for the essence than you can for magic points ussaully. |
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Sep 28 2005, 12:17 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
If you forked out the cash, you could get most of that in SR3 as well. It's not just an SR4 thing.
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Sep 28 2005, 12:26 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860 |
True, but adepts taking 1 point of cyberware and picking up a smartgun link and some other toys were munchkin like then two. Why should adepts get to double dip as it were? The flavor text back then stated that the cyberware cause them great discomfort and such, but they can still do it. Why? |
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Sep 28 2005, 12:30 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
If they're willing to suffer the essence loss, then why not? Same reason mages can get cyberware: magic and ware aren't mutually exclusive, just mutally prohibitive. Calypso |
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Sep 28 2005, 12:30 AM
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#6
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
By some interperations of Adept magic loss, it is actually better to take cyber after chargen then during. Under the more favorable interpertations, an Adept can only have a number of active power points equal to his magic rating but can activate and deactivate powers at will. You can say take 4 points of magic with 2 combat powers and 2 social powers at chargen, then get 2 essence worth of cyber and just switch between social and ocmbat powers as you need them, by this interperation.
I'm not sure if specific wordings have changed this in SR4 ut it was true in SR3. |
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Sep 28 2005, 01:11 AM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
If by 'munchkin' you mean "a sometimes more optimal option that flys in the face of the misguided cliche of a pure magical luddite", then yes it did. Shadowrun is where magic meets man meets machine, or something like that.
Because Shadowrun at least pretends to be a classless system. Attribute Boost uses total number of dice, so there is a slight disadvantage there. Also the cost of Synaptic Boosters(2) is 32BP in cash, so in total it isn't amazingly good for the Adept, but it is definately the better option than taking Improved Reflex(2). In the short term it isn't quite as attractive to take Synaptic Boosters(1) (still 1 point of Magic lost, 16BP of cash) over Improved Reflex(1), but looking at the long term it is still the clear optimal choice IMO to go with the Bioware. P.S. What you did miss on your assessment of the Cyberware, besides what has been pointed out, is that by not taking any Cyberware you can take the Sensitive System negative quality for "free" BP. Ironically the quality has no Bioware impact, and there is no equivalent quality to give incentive to shun all Bioware. |
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Sep 28 2005, 01:57 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860 |
I also didn't mention non magical PCs taking magic flaws, or taking matrix flaws when you don't use the matrix. Or the other ways to gain "free" BP. This is an example of something I thought was kinda unbalancing. It is not an adept vs sam thread. It works both ways should sam shell out the BP for adept powers just incase they want to expand in that area later? I don't remember anything saying you had to pay the magic up front. Should magic and tech be able to mix, and to what degree? |
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Sep 28 2005, 02:37 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,591 |
With the adept/whatnot quality, you get Magic at 1. Be careful when taking cyber/bioware that your Magic stays above 0 or else you'll run into some issues. Burnout is what you have to keep an eye out for.
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Sep 28 2005, 02:46 AM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I take offense to your slinging around the word 'Munchkin' with such abandon when describing a perfectly rules-legal and viable character concept, just because you personally don't like the ramifications.
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Sep 28 2005, 03:03 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
I really don't see anything really wrong with a mixed adept/sammie. You'll probably start the game a little weaker than a full fledged one (whichever one). Unless you focus on one concept (bone density 4 plus critical strike etc.). You get to play a little bit of both worlds and have much more room to grow...
I just can't ever make myself do it because of my addiction to implants... |
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Sep 28 2005, 05:29 AM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Except with Hacker centeric negative qualities the values are different for Hacker vs. Non-Hacker, and the Matrix tends to be more pervasive than in SR3. Also the difference between the astral beacon/chameleon and spirit love/hate isn't that huge for mage vs. mundane, and even closer with mundane vs. Adept because Adepts don't need to worry about that PitA astral sig on their spells and spirits on remote service. Of course mages are generally in a much better position to protect against astral searching. Also given the increased difficulty for mundanes dealing with spirit opponents, and that the mage can choose a spirit type that don't summon themselves for the negative quality, that's probabily about a push for awakened vs. mundane. However Sensitive System, unlike it's SR3 Flaw counterpart, does not have a different BP value for different character types.
"Where Man Meets Magic & Machine" P.S. There are a couple other drawbacks to the Synaptic Boosters. First they are illegal, whereas i haven't noticed anything on legal restrictions for the Improved Reflex Adept power (please point me to a page if i missed it). Also healing is easier with your full essense. A couple relatively small points, at least until you find yourself in those sticky situations. Overall though the power play is to go the bio route. Even when upping to the 4th IP after chargen the bio path crunches better...assuming you can get hold of it and your GM lets you add the 3rd rating level instead of having to rip out the old and do a total replace for a cool 1/4 mil. EDIT: That would be 1/4 mil + markup. |
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Sep 28 2005, 06:05 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
There's nothing wrong with having an adept/sam so long as the backstory is good and it's not too munchkinned.
I'll submit for example my own Adept/Lite-Sam, Benito. I won't post his entire charsheet here, but he's at 4.75 Essence after getting a cyberarm and cyberhand (he lost them in a car accident, the same one that killed his wife and kid.) Sure, his limbs are riced out 'cause he's a runner now, but really the only thing that could go in his cyberhand were razors, which he also got put in his cyberarm for redundancy purposes. I took Magic at 6 with him, and the loss of 2 magic points dropped him down to 4 PPs worth of powers which I took as Increased Reflexes 1, Improved Ability (Pistols) 1, Improved Ability (Automatics) 1, and Combat Sense 2. He's fairly well balanced, and I personally don't think he's game-breaking in the least. He has a little bit of room for expansion in the cyber department (0.75 worth) and then his adept abilities can grow from where they're at right now. To actually make a point, I think backstory is more important than how bad-assed you can make somebody out of the chargen doors. Does your adept have a reason to walk out of chargen with a synaptic booster or wired reflexes? or whatever else you can use to min-max? Shadowrun *IS* a classless game, and the rules are that artificiality impedes magic. But if you play the damn game as a roleplaying game and make the numbers of secondary importance, it really doesn't matter what you've got, so long as the character works and contributes to the story of the scene you're playing. |
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Sep 28 2005, 02:56 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
That said (and I totally see what your saying), Shadowrun characters are also in life or death situations quite frequently. I don't see why a person who had to deal with that all the time wouldn't sacrifice a little of his magic to keep his ass alive...We all play the number game in real life, so why shouldn't a character?
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Sep 28 2005, 03:52 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
The very same reasoning that leads to the perfectly within canon burned out mage archetype |
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Sep 28 2005, 04:02 PM
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#16
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
An Adept with some cyber! Oh noes !!
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Sep 28 2005, 04:37 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Aside from "purity of concept" and opening the door for some negative Qualities, another reason to keep your character as "all-magic" or "all-implant" is healing.
Every point of Essence that you've lost is -1 die on the Heal spell. So dabbling won't hurt you much, but get too deep in implants and your downtime can increase significantly. On the flip side, if you've got a Magic rating then the Medicine rolls to help you recover are at a -2. This is in addition to the -1 die/2 Essence lost you have for the implants. That's more downtime. Mind you, if downtime is the only concern then you may as well get your adept or mage hooked up with some Symbiotes and a Platelet Factory. What really makes me think twice, though, is that every 1 point of Magic I lose is (usually) equivalent to 10 BPs lost. That's effectively 50k nuyen tacked onto the price of my implants for every point -- and fraction thereof -- of Essence I've lost. Example: An adept can buy Improved Reflexes:3 by allocating 5 Magic points. He has spent 5 BPs to become an adept and then 40 BPs to increase his Magic to 5. Or, he can spend 5 BPs to become an adept, then (ignoring Availability for the time being) spend 1.5 Essence and 240k nuyen to get Synaptic Booster:3. That 1.5 Essence equates to 2 Magic lost, or 20 BPs. The nuyen equates to 48 BPs. Wired Reflexes:3 would burn all 5 points of Magic (40 BPs, then 5 BPs for being an adept) and cost 100k nuyen (20 BP). Score: Pure adept, 45 BPs. Hybrid adept/samurai, 68 BPs (bio) or 65 BPs (cyber). Pure samurai, 48 BPs (bio) or 20 (cyber). So, nah, dabbling in Column A and Column B simultaneously isn't really all that munchkiny. There are tradeoffs aside from the more obvious ones. |
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Sep 28 2005, 04:58 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with an adept taking cyber for several reasons.
Perhaps he takes cyber or bio becuase he believes in balance (Yin/Yang sorta thing) and does so between magic and cyber. A perfect conflict in my opinion, for to initiate he must improve or increase his implants to continue such balance. If/When a Gaeus rule comes out, that could become the Gaeus, though I'd makei t rather loose in nature. Perhaps he is not totally aware of where his power come from (yes it can still happen even in shadowrun) and takes a bit of bioware to discover that his powers are now damaged a bit. Perhaps he simply enjoys tech and likes being up to date.. in a very personal kind of way, and damn his powers, he'll get that wiz-bang new bioware so he can pick up some chicks (pheromones). Sure, he'll go his path of magic, but that shiny new toy just looks sooo cool.... And so on. Its all in the background. And I don't find them to be all that unbalanced really. |
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Sep 28 2005, 06:04 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860 |
I would love to hear your definition of some thing thats 'Munchkin'. You more or less hit mine on the head. Munchkin: Some thing that that is 'rules-legal' that clashes with the over all feel of the game, but can be used for power play. That being said I have no problem with things that are in the spirt of the game. If I have the arm of an adept eaten by the big nasty thing I would expect him to get a cyberarm and while he is at it fill it with toys and raise it agility. I would still expect him to lament the loss of his arm. It messes with his mana flow, It makes him fell unconnected, it itches. Now the same person comes to me and tells me he want to make a cyberarmed adept because it would be cool and I would say "No thats stupid why would an adept cut off a good arm just to get cyberware." Adepts inbrace the other side of the physical equation. It classical music vs punk rock. Both are very cool and the contrast adds flavor. So no I don't like to see them mixed just because it makes a powerful PC. Then again I don't like catsup on my eggs that is just me. :) |
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Sep 28 2005, 06:12 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
I agree with your definition of Munchkin. Someone that makes a ridiculous character solely for power. What I don't agree with is that an Awakened character having any sort of ware is munchkiney. It's TOTALLY in line with the setting. There's a term for those people, and when they go too far, they get to be "burnouts". It actually has a lot of great roleplaying potential. For instance, I'm working on a Hermetic Mage that had a Data Jack and Sleep Regulator installed so that he can explore the Matrix. It occured to him one day that the Matrix is a lot like the awakened world: He has spells (programs) to achieve certain goals. He can summon spirits (agents) to help him. He can even astrally project (go full VR). To him, it has a certain unity to it. So, don't dismiss an entire class of characters just because you can't see the potential. Calypso |
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Sep 28 2005, 06:32 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 6-January 03 From: In front of my laptop Member No.: 3,860 |
That is cool it expands you PC. Now what if you had pain editor because you don't like the fact that drain stings. (this example works better in SR3) I am not against magic PCs having Cyberware. I am against magic PCs taking ceratin cyberware, or stacking the bonuses from magic and cyberware. no mages with pain editors (this is just wrong or was) no adepts with smartgun links and magic skill boosts (how does computer aided targeting stack with pulling the trigger when the shot feels right) so on and so forth I am sure we could find some other examples. I was hoping I had missed a rule that kept adepts from stacking the advantages of cyberware with the advantages of magic. |
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Sep 28 2005, 06:42 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
I am sorry, but an adept or a mage taking cyberware should never be considered something that "clashes with the over all feel of the game". The over all feel of the game is man mixing with magic and technology in ALL walks of life. Hell, its a Sci-fi/Fantasy setting for a reason. If they didn't want it like that the rules would reflect it. Besides, were not talking about someone taking enough cyberware that they need 5 different geasa. Were talking about someone taking 1 or 2 pieces of cyberware to increase his usefulness. and YES, an adept or mage would take cyberware in small degrees to make himself more usefull. If I was a real person in the SR universe who so happened to be an adept I would definitely take cyberware. Take a cyberarm with a cyber-holster and wrist gyros for example. Adept powers cannot cover that kind of utility while cyber can. This would make me a better shadowrunner even if it is such a small advantage. While I know most adepts focus on the perfection of their body, I do not see it as totally improbably that another adept can see the addition of cyberware as a means to further perfect themselves. Plus, it doesn't really mess with their mana flow too much. Take the whole old argument about whether or not an adept could use killing hands if both his hands were cyberhands for example. Short and simple answer: Yes, because those hands were in fact paid for with essence. |
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Sep 28 2005, 06:56 PM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No, some Adepts might think and act that way, but not necessarily all of them. Characters are not all based on the same cookie cutter mentality. Each one is an independant entity, that can and does have different motivations and desires. I don't quite understand how you figure that an Adept with implants is somehow clashing with the spirit of the game. The game is 'Man meets Magic & Machine. There are no character classes, where for example, the mage can't use a grenade launcher. There are drawbacks that an Adept has to deal with if he chooses to get implants. I just don't get how you can give the whole concept the label of 'Munchkin'. |
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Sep 28 2005, 07:05 PM
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#24
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Why wouldn't a combat mage have a pain editor? It makes sense that a combat mage would want to fight a peak efficiency. Now, if it were an Academic mage then the pain editor might be out of place. Why would,'t adepts use smartlinks. It is just another sighting device. You wouldn't ban adepts from using laser sights or scopes, would you? There are rules preventing mages and adepts from stacking magic with cyberware. Magical initivative enhancment doesn't stack with cyber inititiave enhancment and magical initiave enhancments don't stack with each other, for example. This prevents the problems of a mystic adept with Improved reflexes, increased relflexes in a sustaining focus, and a synaptic accelerator. |
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Sep 28 2005, 07:12 PM
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#25
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I wish Doc Funk would drop by this thread. He just loves this topic.
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