True, but adepts taking 1 point of cyberware and picking up a smartgun link and some other toys were munchkin like then two. Why should adepts get to double dip as it were? The flavor text back then stated that the cyberware cause them great discomfort and such, but they can still do it. Why?

If they're willing to suffer the essence loss, then why not? Same reason mages can get cyberware: magic and ware aren't mutually exclusive, just mutally prohibitive.

Calypso

If by 'munchkin' you mean "a sometimes more optimal option that flys in the face of the misguided cliche of a pure magical luddite", then yes it did. Shadowrun is where magic meets man meets machine, or something like that.

Because Shadowrun at least pretends to be a classless system.

Attribute Boost uses total number of dice, so there is a slight disadvantage there. Also the cost of Synaptic Boosters(2) is 32BP in cash, so in total it isn't amazingly good for the Adept, but it is definately the better option than taking Improved Reflex(2). In the short term it isn't quite as attractive to take Synaptic Boosters(1) (still 1 point of Magic lost, 16BP of cash) over Improved Reflex(1), but looking at the long term it is still the clear optimal choice IMO to go with the Bioware.

P.S. What you did miss on your assessment of the Cyberware, besides what has been pointed out, is that by not taking any Cyberware you can take the Sensitive System negative quality for "free" BP. Ironically the quality has no Bioware impact, and there is no equivalent quality to give incentive to shun all Bioware.

I also didn't mention non magical PCs taking magic flaws, or taking matrix flaws when you don't use the matrix. Or the other ways to gain "free" BP.

This is an example of something I thought was kinda unbalancing. It is not an adept vs sam thread. It works both ways should sam shell out the BP for adept powers just incase they want to expand in that area later? I don't remember anything saying you had to pay the magic up front. Should magic and tech be able to mix, and to what degree?

Except with Hacker centeric negative qualities the values are different for Hacker vs. Non-Hacker, and the Matrix tends to be more pervasive than in SR3. Also the difference between the astral beacon/chameleon and spirit love/hate isn't that huge for mage vs. mundane, and even closer with mundane vs. Adept because Adepts don't need to worry about that PitA astral sig on their spells and spirits on remote service. Of course mages are generally in a much better position to protect against astral searching.

Also given the increased difficulty for mundanes dealing with spirit opponents, and that the mage can choose a spirit type that don't summon themselves for the negative quality, that's probabily about a push for awakened vs. mundane.

However Sensitive System, unlike it's SR3 Flaw counterpart, does not have a different BP value for different character types.

"Where Man Meets Magic & Machine"

P.S. There are a couple other drawbacks to the Synaptic Boosters. First they are illegal, whereas i haven't noticed anything on legal restrictions for the Improved Reflex Adept power (please point me to a page if i missed it). Also healing is easier with your full essense. A couple relatively small points, at least until you find yourself in those sticky situations. Overall though the power play is to go the bio route. Even when upping to the 4th IP after chargen the bio path crunches better...assuming you can get hold of it and your GM lets you add the 3rd rating level instead of having to rip out the old and do a total replace for a cool 1/4 mil. EDIT: That would be 1/4 mil + markup.

The very same reasoning that leads to the perfectly within canon burned out mage archetype

I would love to hear your definition of some thing thats 'Munchkin'. You more or less hit mine on the head.

Munchkin: Some thing that that is 'rules-legal' that clashes with the over all feel of the game, but can be used for power play.


That being said I have no problem with things that are in the spirt of the game. If I have the arm of an adept eaten by the big nasty thing I would expect him to get a cyberarm and while he is at it fill it with toys and raise it agility. I would still expect him to lament the loss of his arm. It messes with his mana flow, It makes him fell unconnected, it itches.

Now the same person comes to me and tells me he want to make a cyberarmed adept because it would be cool and I would say "No thats stupid why would an adept cut off a good arm just to get cyberware."

Adepts inbrace the other side of the physical equation. It classical music vs punk rock. Both are very cool and the contrast adds flavor. So no I don't like to see them mixed just because it makes a powerful PC. Then again I don't like catsup on my eggs that is just me.

I agree with your definition of Munchkin. Someone that makes a ridiculous character solely for power.

What I don't agree with is that an Awakened character having any sort of ware is munchkiney. It's TOTALLY in line with the setting. There's a term for those people, and when they go too far, they get to be "burnouts". It actually has a lot of great roleplaying potential.

For instance, I'm working on a Hermetic Mage that had a Data Jack and Sleep Regulator installed so that he can explore the Matrix. It occured to him one day that the Matrix is a lot like the awakened world: He has spells (programs) to achieve certain goals. He can summon spirits (agents) to help him. He can even astrally project (go full VR). To him, it has a certain unity to it.

So, don't dismiss an entire class of characters just because you can't see the potential.

Calypso

That is cool it expands you PC. Now what if you had pain editor because you don't like the fact that drain stings. (this example works better in SR3)

I am not against magic PCs having Cyberware. I am against magic PCs taking ceratin cyberware, or stacking the bonuses from magic and cyberware.

no mages with pain editors (this is just wrong or was)
no adepts with smartgun links and magic skill boosts (how does computer aided targeting stack with pulling the trigger when the shot feels right)
so on and so forth I am sure we could find some other examples.

I was hoping I had missed a rule that kept adepts from stacking the advantages of cyberware with the advantages of magic.

I am sorry, but an adept or a mage taking cyberware should never be considered something that "clashes with the over all feel of the game". The over all feel of the game is man mixing with magic and technology in ALL walks of life. Hell, its a Sci-fi/Fantasy setting for a reason.

If they didn't want it like that the rules would reflect it. Besides, were not talking about someone taking enough cyberware that they need 5 different geasa. Were talking about someone taking 1 or 2 pieces of cyberware to increase his usefulness.

and YES, an adept or mage would take cyberware in small degrees to make himself more usefull. If I was a real person in the SR universe who so happened to be an adept I would definitely take cyberware. Take a cyberarm with a cyber-holster and wrist gyros for example. Adept powers cannot cover that kind of utility while cyber can. This would make me a better shadowrunner even if it is such a small advantage.

While I know most adepts focus on the perfection of their body, I do not see it as totally improbably that another adept can see the addition of cyberware as a means to further perfect themselves.

Plus, it doesn't really mess with their mana flow too much. Take the whole old argument about whether or not an adept could use killing hands if both his hands were cyberhands for example. Short and simple answer: Yes, because those hands were in fact paid for with essence.

No, some Adepts might think and act that way, but not necessarily all of them. Characters are not all based on the same cookie cutter mentality. Each one is an independant entity, that can and does have different motivations and desires.

I don't quite understand how you figure that an Adept with implants is somehow clashing with the spirit of the game. The game is 'Man meets Magic & Machine. There are no character classes, where for example, the mage can't use a grenade launcher.

There are drawbacks that an Adept has to deal with if he chooses to get implants. I just don't get how you can give the whole concept the label of 'Munchkin'.

Why wouldn't a combat mage have a pain editor? It makes sense that a combat mage would want to fight a peak efficiency. Now, if it were an Academic mage then the pain editor might be out of place.

Why would,'t adepts use smartlinks. It is just another sighting device. You wouldn't ban adepts from using laser sights or scopes, would you?

There are rules preventing mages and adepts from stacking magic with cyberware. Magical initivative enhancment doesn't stack with cyber inititiave enhancment and magical initiave enhancments don't stack with each other, for example. This prevents the problems of a mystic adept with Improved reflexes, increased relflexes in a sustaining focus, and a synaptic accelerator.

I think it's a (usually justified) kneejerk reaction to allowing people to "multiclass."

When you give people the ability to get the best of both worlds, you can be assured that some people will take you up on that offer. When these people start doing it for no other reason than powergaming, then you have a problem. When people can powergame without any inherent game-balancing side effects, then you have a broken game.

(The following is an offhand example. The build numbers might be off, but this is just an example.)

Let's say that a dwarven mystic adept gets all munchy and picks up Fast Healer and Focused Concentration. He picks up Rapid Healing:4. He burns the nuyen, Essence, and Magic on Cerebral Booster:2, Platelet Factory and Symbiotes:2. He brings his Body, Willpower, and Logic as high as he can with the BPs available and then buys a few combat spells, the Heal spell, and a lot of the Spellcasting skill. Maybe he'll have some points to get foci. He's likely running low on BPs at that point.

All he does is cast blasty spells at double his diminished Magic rating for the express purpose of doing (decreased) Physical damage to himself so he can turn around and use the Heal spell to negate the drain. If he ends up with Stun from that, he'll recover it extremely quickly. Now he just spends karma on Initiating so he can overcast bigger and bigger spells.

Right there, you have an obvious munchkin (short jokes aside).

But, you know, SR4 was built with some decent checks & balances. Look at everything that munchy has had to give up to get where he is -- if he can even get there with 400 BPs. He's really not a standalone character. The poor halfer might not even be able to drive or successfully fence loot.

Of course, if he wanted to just blast things, he might have been better off just going full cyber and using a shotgun.

'Runners are supposed to be tough. It's necessary and even expected of them. Don't fault players for having effective characters; fault them if their characters are so specialized that they suck at everything else.

-Siege

Then he doesn't do anything, because his Magic Rating isn't reduced for the purpose of how big a spell he can get off - only how many dice he rolls. So he's running around with a very small dice pool, casting spells at very high force. So he takes (reduced) physical drain to have a very real chance of not even affecting the enemies he's throwing it at. And then for the rest of combat, he's got wound penalties.

Whup-de-do.

-Frank