 Essence loss and magic attribute at Char Gen.. |
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 Oct 11 2005, 05:19 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 30-July 04 From: Orebro, Sweden Member No.: 6,523  |
Is the essence loss applied _after_ you have bought the magic attribute or before ?
ie do you loose 10 bp thanks to the essence loss.. ie max at 5, bought 5 but it goes down to 4.. OR Just reduces your maximum at chargen, nothing else happens ? Both have their merits.. but Im leaning towards the first example.. |
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Oct 11 2005, 05:24 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
It reduces whatever you bought it up to, as in it reduces your rating instead of the cap.
Example: If you got your magic up to 5 and via cyber/bio it gets reduced to 4. Said player's cap would still be 6, unless of course you initiate which raises the cap. |
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Oct 11 2005, 05:27 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
You lose some of the magic you bought. So, if you buy your Magic up to 5, and get .5 essence worth of cyberware, your magic drops to 4.
Calypso |
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Oct 11 2005, 05:30 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 30-July 04 From: Orebro, Sweden Member No.: 6,523 |
yeah.. after some discussion thats the conclusion I have come to..
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Oct 11 2005, 05:42 PM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The cap is still 6, but the effective cap is 5 because the cap is based on pre-essense loss, as is the cost for purchasing a new point of Magic. For example the PC buys up to 5 at chargen, and then takes 0.5 worth of 'ware. The Magic drops to 4. Later after some runs the PC goes to raise Magic by a point. It costs 6*3=18 karma, which raises the Magic to 5....which is the limit until the PC initiates. All in all it is rough on an awakened to take any essense loss. |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:00 PM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
This is where your example becomes flat wrong. The character in the example would pay 15 Karma to raise their magic to 5. Losing Essence reduces your actual Magic Rating (instantaneously), and reduces your Maximum Magic Rating (continuously). It is not a continuous reduction of your Magic Rating. Once you've lost a point of magic from 5 to 4, your rating is 4. And your maximum is 5. You don't secretly have a 5 which is continuously reduced to 4.
-Frank |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:13 PM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
However the cost is still as if you had 5 points. Effectively 5 is your 'natural', and 4 is your 'augmented'. EDIT: Well not really that either, it's basically set up to screw over the awakened/techno PC hardest for taking 'ware. ;(
This has come up before here, i'm trying to find the quote as it is buried in an awkward place. |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:23 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
No, if you lose a point of Magic due to essence loss, your actual Magic rating is reduced. So, if you go to buy it up, it's based on that (now lowered) number. Not what it would be if you didn't have ware. Calypso |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:25 PM
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#9
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I don't care where it says that. The rules for what happens to your Magic when you lose Essence are on page 62. The rules for how much it costs to raise your magic attribute with Karma are on page 263. Neither mentions anything about having a virtual Magic Attribute for purposes of Karma costs, so if anything anywhere else in the book says that there is such a thing, it is in error. -Frank |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:26 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
He's baaaack. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:29 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
Except that his point is completely valid. |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:35 PM
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#12
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Why, does it actually say what the purchasing costs are there? Nope. :( However my search fu is failing me today so far, and RL is calling..... |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:40 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:44 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 7-July 02 From: NY Member No.: 2,942 |
Frank has it right, per page 62, it clearly states that for every point or fraction of a point you have in cyber/bio your magic goes down by 1 and your maximum magic goes down by one. What I can't find is if you apply that before or after you purchase your magic stat up during creation. |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:46 PM
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#15
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
@mfb: Unfortunately page 264 doesn't mention what happens with essense loss as it only discusses a limit of 6 + Initiate Grade, which is not the case as page 62 says the limit is lowered by essense loss. :(
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Oct 11 2005, 06:48 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
It has to be after. Otherwise, you'd have a Magic of 1 (courtesy of Magician/Mystic Adept/Adept quality). Then, you'd apply your essence loss and get a Magic of.... 0. Oh crap I'm a burnout that can never buy up his magic again. Oh well, guess I'd better scrap this character before he even hits play. Calypso |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:52 PM
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#17
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Not if they spend the BP to up their Magic beyond 1 first (which DOES happen before 'ware is added). |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:53 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i believe you are thinking of a recommended ruling on these boards, blackie. more specifically, i think it's in the stickied magic thread, and it's a ruling suggested by hahnsoo... i think.
anyways, calypso... i think you're getting the question wrong. what he means, is: if i have lost essence at character creation, do i lose a point of magic and a point from my maximum, or just a point from my maximum. the answer to which, IMO, is that you lose a point from current and maximum. |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:55 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
Ah, okay. Entirely possible, that does make more sense. And yes, I agree. You lose from your current as well as your maximum. So if you want to end with a Magic of 4 and an Essence of 5, you have to spend 40 BP on Magic to get it to 5 so it can then be reduced to 4. Calypso |
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Oct 11 2005, 06:59 PM
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#20
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Option 1: You apply that before purchasing your magic stat during character creation. Your magic stat goes to zero, and you are again a mundane, unable to purchase magic at all. Option 2: You apply that after purchasing your magic stat during character creation. Your magic attribute falls to 4, and you've spent 10 BPs on treading water. In addition to being much kinder to magicians to use option 2, you purchase your attibutes (including Magic) on page 77, and then subsequently purchase cyberware on page 84. If you read the character generation rules as an ordered sequence, cyberware (and essence loss) happens after you buy your magic attribute. It's not much, but the resources section does mention that you already have your skills and attributes. -Frank |
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Oct 11 2005, 07:05 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Also note that cyber and bio benefits to mental stats do not apply to the limits or freebies that you get at character creation.
i.e. use your natural intuition + logic for the free knowledge skills, etc. |
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Oct 11 2005, 07:21 PM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The example of Michelle on page 74 shows that you purchase Magic before you lose essense.
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Oct 11 2005, 07:34 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 286 Joined: 5-September 05 Member No.: 7,688 |
So the idea Frank and the rest are espousing is that Essence always goes down, never goes up? If you put an implant in and lose 0.5 essence, you can't take it out and regain the essence? Why not?
Or are you saying it'll go back up, but the loss of Magic will permanently stay down? I don't see the point of that. It was always my idea that cyber/bioware simply suppressed Essence and, by extension, Magic. The only "perma-Essence drain" I thought happened when you became addicted to drugs and BTL's or got drained by a vampire. |
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Oct 11 2005, 07:35 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 238 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,569 |
I'm not sure it covers this in SR4, but it does in SR3.
If you get ware, and then have it removed, your essence/magic do not go back up. Basically, it leaves an essence "hole" that can then be filled with other ware. Calypso |
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Oct 11 2005, 07:44 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
How I understand it:
~~~~~ Full Magician Steve spends 15 BP for the quality and gets Magic 1. After that, he diverges into three alternate dimensions where he does one of three things: 1) Steve does not increase his Magic rating any further in chargen. He picks up a pair of cyberelbows for .2 Essence. His Magic cap goes down from a 6 to a 5, and his current Magic goes down from a 1 to 0. He is now burned out, and can no longer use magic. Bad investment, Steve, but at least you're allowed to start with the restricted magical skills. 2) Steve, in chargen, spends 30 BPs and gets a Magic of 4. He picks up Articulated Earlobes for .1 Essence and now has a maximum Magic of 5 and a current Magic of 3. He spends karma later to raise his Magic (not by initating) and now has a current Magic of 4, but his uninitiated cap remains as 5. Later he spends more karma to raise his current Magic to 5. This is also his cap, and he cannot raise it further without initiating first. After his first initiation his current Magic is still a 5 but his cap is 6. 3) Steve, in chargen, spends 65 BPs and gets a Magic of 6. He later initiates once and then buys his Magic rating up to 7. Then, after a particularly forgettable vacation at a BTL pusher's mansion, he loses a point of Essence. His Essence is now 5, his current Magic is 6, his maximum Magic is 6, and his Initiate Grade is still 1. |
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