Nkari
Oct 11 2005, 05:19 PM
Is the essence loss applied _after_ you have bought the magic attribute or before ?
ie do you loose 10 bp thanks to the essence loss..
ie max at 5, bought 5 but it goes down to 4..
OR
Just reduces your maximum at chargen, nothing else happens ?
Both have their merits.. but Im leaning towards the first example..
Superbum
Oct 11 2005, 05:24 PM
It reduces whatever you bought it up to, as in it reduces your rating instead of the cap.
Example: If you got your magic up to 5 and via cyber/bio it gets reduced to 4.
Said player's cap would still be 6, unless of course you initiate which raises the cap.
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 05:27 PM
You lose some of the magic you bought. So, if you buy your Magic up to 5, and get .5 essence worth of cyberware, your magic drops to 4.
Calypso
Nkari
Oct 11 2005, 05:30 PM
yeah.. after some discussion thats the conclusion I have come to..
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 05:42 PM
QUOTE (Superbum) |
It reduces whatever you bought it up to, as in it reduces your rating instead of the cap.
Example: If you got your magic up to 5 and via cyber/bio it gets reduced to 4.
Said player's cap would still be 6, unless of course you initiate which raises the cap. |
The cap is still 6, but the effective cap is 5 because the cap is based on pre-essense loss, as is the cost for purchasing a new point of Magic.
For example the PC buys up to 5 at chargen, and then takes 0.5 worth of 'ware. The Magic drops to 4.
Later after some runs the PC goes to raise Magic by a point. It costs 6*3=18 karma, which raises the Magic to 5....which is the limit until the PC initiates. All in all it is rough on an awakened to take any essense loss.
FrankTrollman
Oct 11 2005, 06:00 PM
QUOTE (blakkie) |
Later after some runs the PC goes to raise Magic by a point. It costs 6*3=18 karma, which raises the Magic to 5....which is the limit until the PC initiates. All in all it is rough on an awakened to take any essense loss. |
This is where your example becomes flat wrong. The character in the example would pay 15 Karma to raise their magic to 5. Losing Essence reduces your actual Magic Rating (instantaneously), and reduces your Maximum Magic Rating (continuously). It is not a continuous reduction of your Magic Rating.
Once you've lost a point of magic from 5 to 4, your rating is 4. And your maximum is 5. You don't secretly have a 5 which is continuously reduced to 4.
QUOTE (SR4) |
For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. |
-Frank
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 06:13 PM
However the cost is still as if you had 5 points. Effectively 5 is your 'natural', and 4 is your 'augmented'. EDIT: Well not really that either, it's basically set up to screw over the awakened/techno PC hardest for taking 'ware. ;(
This has come up before here, i'm trying to find the quote as it is buried in an awkward place.
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 06:23 PM
QUOTE (blakkie) |
However the cost is still as if you had 5 points. Effectively 5 is your 'natural', and 4 is your 'augmented'. EDIT: Well not really that either, it's basically set up to screw over the awakened/techno PC hardest for taking 'ware. ;(
This has come up before here, i'm trying to find the quote as it is buried in an awkward place. |
No, if you lose a point of Magic due to essence loss, your actual Magic rating is reduced. So, if you go to buy it up, it's based on that (now lowered) number. Not what it would be if you didn't have ware.
Calypso
FrankTrollman
Oct 11 2005, 06:25 PM
QUOTE (blakkie) |
However the cost is still as if you had 5 points. Effectively 5 is your 'natural', and 4 is your 'augmented'. EDIT: Well not really that either, it's basically set up to screw over the awakened/techno PC hardest for taking 'ware. ;(
This has come up before here, i'm trying to find the quote as it is buried in an awkward place. |
I don't care where it says that. The rules for what happens to your Magic when you lose Essence are on page 62. The rules for how much it costs to raise your magic attribute with Karma are on page 263. Neither mentions anything about having a virtual Magic Attribute for purposes of Karma costs, so if anything anywhere else in the book says that there is such a thing, it is in error.
-Frank
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
Neither mentions anything about having a virtual Magic Attribute for purposes of Karma costs, so if anything anywhere else in the book says that there is such a thing, it is in error. |
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 06:29 PM
QUOTE (blakkie) |
He's baaaack. |
Except that his point is completely valid.
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 06:35 PM
Why, does it actually say what the purchasing costs are there? Nope.
However my search fu is failing me today so far, and RL is calling.....
mfb
Oct 11 2005, 06:40 PM
QUOTE (blakkie) |
Why, does it actually say what the purchasing costs are there? Nope. |
QUOTE (Frank Trollman) |
The rules for how much it costs to raise your magic attribute with Karma are on page 263. |
Raizer
Oct 11 2005, 06:44 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
QUOTE (blakkie) | However the cost is still as if you had 5 points. Effectively 5 is your 'natural', and 4 is your 'augmented'. EDIT: Well not really that either, it's basically set up to screw over the awakened/techno PC hardest for taking 'ware. ;(
This has come up before here, i'm trying to find the quote as it is buried in an awkward place. |
I don't care where it says that. The rules for what happens to your Magic when you lose Essence are on page 62. The rules for how much it costs to raise your magic attribute with Karma are on page 263. Neither mentions anything about having a virtual Magic Attribute for purposes of Karma costs, so if anything anywhere else in the book says that there is such a thing, it is in error.
-Frank
|
Frank has it right, per page 62, it clearly states that for every point or fraction of a point you have in cyber/bio your magic goes down by 1 and your maximum magic goes down by one.
What I can't find is if you apply that before or after you purchase your magic stat up during creation.
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 06:46 PM
@mfb: Unfortunately page 264 doesn't mention what happens with essense loss as it only discusses a limit of 6 + Initiate Grade, which is not the case as page 62 says the limit is lowered by essense loss.
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 06:48 PM
QUOTE (Raizer @ Oct 11 2005, 01:44 PM) |
Frank has it right, per page 62, it clearly states that for every point or fraction of a point you have in cyber/bio your magic goes down by 1 and your maximum magic goes down by one.
What I can't find is if you apply that before or after you purchase your magic stat up during creation. |
It has to be after. Otherwise, you'd have a Magic of 1 (courtesy of Magician/Mystic Adept/Adept quality). Then, you'd apply your essence loss and get a Magic of.... 0. Oh crap I'm a burnout that can never buy up his magic again. Oh well, guess I'd better scrap this character before he even hits play.
Calypso
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 06:52 PM
QUOTE (calypso) |
QUOTE (Raizer @ Oct 11 2005, 01:44 PM) | Frank has it right, per page 62, it clearly states that for every point or fraction of a point you have in cyber/bio your magic goes down by 1 and your maximum magic goes down by one.
What I can't find is if you apply that before or after you purchase your magic stat up during creation. |
It has to be after. Otherwise, you'd have a Magic of 1 (courtesy of Magician/Mystic Adept/Adept quality). Then, you'd apply your essence loss and get a Magic of.... 0. Oh crap I'm a burnout that can never buy up his magic again. Oh well, guess I'd better scrap this character before he even hits play.
Calypso
|
Not if they spend the BP to up their Magic beyond 1 first (which DOES happen before 'ware is added).
Jaid
Oct 11 2005, 06:53 PM
i believe you are thinking of a recommended ruling on these boards, blackie. more specifically, i think it's in the stickied magic thread, and it's a ruling suggested by hahnsoo... i think.
anyways, calypso... i think you're getting the question wrong.
what he means, is:
if i have lost essence at character creation, do i lose a point of magic and a point from my maximum, or just a point from my maximum.
the answer to which, IMO, is that you lose a point from current and maximum.
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 06:55 PM
QUOTE (Jaid) |
anyways, calypso... i think you're getting the question wrong.
what he means, is:
if i have lost essence at character creation, do i lose a point of magic and a point from my maximum, or just a point from my maximum.
the answer to which, IMO, is that you lose a point from current and maximum. |
Ah, okay. Entirely possible, that does make more sense.
And yes, I agree. You lose from your current as well as your maximum. So if you want to end with a Magic of 4 and an Essence of 5, you have to spend 40 BP on Magic to get it to 5 so it can then be reduced to 4.
Calypso
FrankTrollman
Oct 11 2005, 06:59 PM
QUOTE (Raizer) |
What I can't find is if you apply that before or after you purchase your magic stat up during creation. |
Option 1: You apply that before purchasing your magic stat during character creation. Your magic stat goes to zero, and you are again a mundane, unable to purchase magic at all.
Option 2: You apply that after purchasing your magic stat during character creation. Your magic attribute falls to 4, and you've spent 10 BPs on treading water.
In addition to being much kinder to magicians to use option 2, you purchase your attibutes (including Magic) on page 77, and then subsequently purchase cyberware on page 84. If you read the character generation rules as an ordered sequence, cyberware (and essence loss) happens after you buy your magic attribute. It's not much, but the resources section does mention that you already have your skills and attributes.
-Frank
Mr. Unpronounceable
Oct 11 2005, 07:05 PM
Also note that cyber and bio benefits to mental stats do not apply to the limits or freebies that you get at character creation.
i.e. use your natural intuition + logic for the free knowledge skills, etc.
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 07:21 PM
The example of Michelle on page 74 shows that you purchase Magic before you lose essense.
Veggiesama
Oct 11 2005, 07:34 PM
So the idea Frank and the rest are espousing is that Essence always goes down, never goes up? If you put an implant in and lose 0.5 essence, you can't take it out and regain the essence? Why not?
Or are you saying it'll go back up, but the loss of Magic will permanently stay down? I don't see the point of that. It was always my idea that cyber/bioware simply suppressed Essence and, by extension, Magic.
The only "perma-Essence drain" I thought happened when you became addicted to drugs and BTL's or got drained by a vampire.
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 07:35 PM
I'm not sure it covers this in SR4, but it does in SR3.
If you get ware, and then have it removed, your essence/magic do not go back up. Basically, it leaves an essence "hole" that can then be filled with other ware.
Calypso
Azralon
Oct 11 2005, 07:44 PM
How I understand it:
~~~~~
Full Magician Steve spends 15 BP for the quality and gets Magic 1. After that, he diverges into three alternate dimensions where he does one of three things:
1) Steve does not increase his Magic rating any further in chargen. He picks up a pair of cyberelbows for .2 Essence. His Magic cap goes down from a 6 to a 5, and his current Magic goes down from a 1 to 0. He is now burned out, and can no longer use magic. Bad investment, Steve, but at least you're allowed to start with the restricted magical skills.
2) Steve, in chargen, spends 30 BPs and gets a Magic of 4. He picks up Articulated Earlobes for .1 Essence and now has a maximum Magic of 5 and a current Magic of 3. He spends karma later to raise his Magic (not by initating) and now has a current Magic of 4, but his uninitiated cap remains as 5. Later he spends more karma to raise his current Magic to 5. This is also his cap, and he cannot raise it further without initiating first. After his first initiation his current Magic is still a 5 but his cap is 6.
3) Steve, in chargen, spends 65 BPs and gets a Magic of 6. He later initiates once and then buys his Magic rating up to 7. Then, after a particularly forgettable vacation at a BTL pusher's mansion, he loses a point of Essence. His Essence is now 5, his current Magic is 6, his maximum Magic is 6, and his Initiate Grade is still 1.
Azralon
Oct 11 2005, 07:48 PM
QUOTE (calypso @ Oct 11 2005, 03:35 PM) |
I'm not sure it covers this in SR4, but it does in SR3. If you get ware, and then have it removed, your essence/magic do not go back up. Basically, it leaves an essence "hole" that can then be filled with other ware.
|
QUOTE (SR4 @ p61) |
"Lost Essence can never be regained (short of the Essence Drain critter power). When Essence declines, Magic and Resonance decline by the same amount. All characters start off the game with an Essence of 6." |
A cursory search of SR4 doesn't show anything about holes left, but IIRC they were in SR3. At least, we played with them.
SR4 doesn't say anything about how to get implants outside of chargen, for that matter. I've griped about that in another thread.
FrankTrollman
Oct 11 2005, 07:56 PM
QUOTE |
So the idea Frank and the rest are espousing is that Essence always goes down, never goes up? |
That's the way it has always worked in every previous edition ever. Once you lose Magic (or Essence), it's gone. Undoing whatever it was that made it go away does not bring it back.
Now in previous editions there was this complicated system of "transimplant surgery", where you could trade your essence loss from one piece of 'ware for another set of equal or lesser value. In all probability this is going to be replaced with a rule that is much much easier to understand and implement when Augmentation comes out. I personally suggest that Essence should just come back when cyberware is removed and that each Magic Loss be a triggered one-time event on the road to being a burnout (note that after your sixth magic loss you can't even initiate your way out in SR4, because your grade can't be raised higher than your magic attribute).
The current rules, however, don't have any rules at all for regaining Magic or Essence. This is a serious problem for the RAW vampire, who loses a point of Magic every month and can only regain them with Karma expenditure.
-Frank
Veggiesama
Oct 11 2005, 08:02 PM
QUOTE (calypso) |
If you get ware, and then have it removed, your essence/magic do not go back up. Basically, it leaves an essence "hole" that can then be filled with other ware. |
Essence hole? So if someone captures a mage, they can forcibly install a datajack for 500n on that character, making him permanently lose a point of Magic?
Or how about just burn him out by installing 59 datajacks across his body? Afterall, it only costs 6 BP of nuyen to erase 75 (50 + 15 quality) BP of stats.
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 08:05 PM
QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
Or how about just burn him out by installing 59 datajacks across his body? Afterall, it only costs 6 BP of nuyen to erase 75 (50 + 15 quality) BP of stats. |
Yeah? And it only takes 2
worth of ammo to erase 400 BP. What's your point?
Superbum
Oct 11 2005, 08:11 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
The current rules, however, don't have any rules at all for regaining Magic or Essence. This is a serious problem for the RAW vampire, who loses a point of Magic every month and can only regain them with Karma expenditure.
-Frank |
IIRC, essence lost from the Essence Loss weakness doesn't lower their magic rating permanantly. It just lowers its effective rating until the creature gets its essence back up. At least, thats how I read it.
Veggiesama
Oct 11 2005, 08:25 PM
Ignoring the fact that the 2n of ammo has to be fired by a weapon that costs reasonably more, weld by a character who is traditionally a bit more skilled and experienced, and so on (afterall it was just a silly example), I find the idea of an removeable implant permanently destroying your essence/magic/soul to be a bit ludicrous.
So a person goes through normal life (perhaps installing minor cyberware like a datajack), then one day finds out he is Awakened. That's the gist I got out of how Magic comes to people from the blurb in the History chapter: "Out of the blue, some people were now able to incinerate others with a thought (even if it knocked them on their keisters afterward)."
If they gained the Magician quality at this time, they'd begin with a Magic rating of 1. They then go through life building up Karma to improve said rating, or pretending like it didn't exist.
Of course, then those who installed a datajack would gain the Trait, suddenly having a Magic rating of 1. Of course, their 0.1 essence loss equates to a point loss of Magic, so it instantly reverts back to 0, they lose the trait, and are burned out. Joe Blow then leaves to get a bite to eat at the Stuffer Shack. He would never have the opportunity to improve Magic, because as soon as he gains Magician quality, he loses it again.
Potential spoiler from "Never Deal With a Dragon":
[ Spoiler ]
Now forgive me for not being hugely up-to-date on SR literature, and I might not even know what I'm talking about, but in the novel I picked up ("Never Deal With a Dragon", haven't finished it), Sam Verner finds out that he's Awakened. He has a datajack from his corp days, and is also able to access VR. I don't know if he gets these removed later on or anything, though.
So I figure he had to have gained Magician, the essence loss dropped his Magic rating to a temporary 0, and as soon as he spends the karma (roleplay/drama-wise, unknowingly to the character!) to raise the "real stat" to 2, his temporary 0 becomes a 1 and voila, he can cast magic.
Superbum
Oct 11 2005, 08:30 PM
In the section about acquiring positive qualities through gameplay it specifies the Adept, Mystic Adept, and Mage qualities should NOT be giving out as awards or available via karma. It also says, GMs can pass them out if they so choose (if they really really want to) but players should never be able to purchase them after chargen.
hahnsoo
Oct 11 2005, 08:42 PM
@blakkie: In this case, Frank Trollman is correct. You don't purchase Magic with Karma based on the pre-reduced value. You purchase increases with Karma based on the current value. This paradoxically makes cybered mages/adepts easier to build up to their maximum Magic attribute.
@Veggiesama: If your essence is ever reduced, then it cannot be regained unless you are a critter with the Essence Drain power. This is one of the many core concepts of Shadowrun, and it is listed explicitly on SR4 p61, 2nd column: "Lost Essence can never be regained (short of the Essence Drain critter power)". This may result in Magic Loss, this is true (and under the current rules, the critters with the Essence Loss weakness will effectively become burnouts very quickly... I suspect this will be fixed later on, because it makes no sense as it is).
Veggiesama
Oct 11 2005, 08:43 PM
Edit (me too slow):
Superbum:
Yeah, I'm not saying they're given as rewards or bought with karma. They arise spontaneously, or at least you're generally not born with it.
Either way, it still says the Magic attribute starts at 1. I guess you could read it as time pauses for that split second when you receive the quality through divine will, you spend your conveniently available karma to raise it above your essence loss threshold, all done a split second before essence loss deals its ugly blow.
hahnsoo:
I'm not saying installing cyberware is lost essence. My interpretation is that it's temporarily suppressed until you remove it, assuming it's not something irrevocably invasive (cyberarm?). I figure the more invasive, the longer it would take for the body to heal itself mentally and physically, possibly taking months or years. Yes, though the text on p61 says otherwise (even if cyber/bioware curiously only "reduces Essence" rather than the stronger terminology "lose Essence"), it still sounds like to me that having to pay the same amount of karma for raising a stat from 2 to 3 (after being reduced from 4 from essence) and from 2 to 3 (no essence loss) seems stupid. Shouldn't the cyberjunkie have to pay more karma?
calypso
Oct 11 2005, 08:48 PM
QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
Yeah, I'm not saying they're given as rewards or bought with karma. They arise spontaneously, or at least you're generally not born with it.
Either way, it still says the Magic attribute starts at 1. I guess you could read it as time pauses for that split second when you receive the quality through divine will, you spend your conveniently available karma to raise it above your essence loss threshold, all done a split second before essence loss deals its ugly blow. |
Or perhaps people Awaken with a Magic higher than 1? Or you don't Awaken if you would immediately burn out?
Who says that people that Awaken automatically have a Magic of 1? Yes, you have to pay for the priveledge of having a Magic greater than 1. But that doesn't mean it wasn't always that way. You could just be inherently gifted. You still have to pay for it.
Calypso
FrankTrollman
Oct 11 2005, 08:54 PM
QUOTE (Superbum) |
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 11 2005, 02:56 PM) | The current rules, however, don't have any rules at all for regaining Magic or Essence. This is a serious problem for the RAW vampire, who loses a point of Magic every month and can only regain them with Karma expenditure.
-Frank |
IIRC, essence lost from the Essence Loss weakness doesn't lower their magic rating permanantly. It just lowers its effective rating until the creature gets its essence back up. At least, thats how I read it.
|
No.
QUOTE (SR4) |
Critters with Essence Loss have no actual Essence of their own and must drain Essence from others in order to survive. Beings with Essence Loss lose 1 point of Essence every lunar cycle (1 month). As Essence decreases, Magic may also be affected (see p. 62). |
QUOTE (SR4) |
For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. |
So as long as your Vampire friend keeps their Essence above 6, they are good. Once it dips below 6, their Magic drops permanently every month until they get their Essence back up above 6.
-Frank
Mr. Unpronounceable
Oct 11 2005, 08:58 PM
QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
So I figure he had to have gained Magician, the essence loss dropped his Magic rating to a temporary 0, and as soon as he spends the karma (roleplay/drama-wise, unknowingly to the character!) to raise the "real stat" to 2, his temporary 0 becomes a 1 and voila, he can cast magic. |
Er...the character wasn't written with SR4 rules in mind...
It used to be that if you were a mage, you automatically got magic = essense at creation.
hahnsoo
Oct 11 2005, 09:12 PM
QUOTE (Veggiesama) |
I'm not saying installing cyberware is lost essence. |
According to the rules, it is. The "reduced" and "loss" nomenclature are used interchangably, if you are going through that nitpick rules-lawyering route (see SR4, p84, where "cost" "reduced" and "loss" are all used to describe what happens to your body if you implant 'ware). More than that, it's a central concept of SR... when you lose Essence, there's practically no way (barring some of the information in the novels, which conflict greatly with SR rules at times) to get it back, even if you remove the 'ware.
Veggiesama
Oct 11 2005, 09:35 PM
QUOTE |
According to the rules, it is.
|
And according to my rules, it isn't. *shrugs*
I'm not saying the rules are on my side, but I was just making a few parenthetical notes. I just think the rules are flawed mechanics-wise and should be changed.
It's kind of a silly idea that some part of your "soul" is lost when you stick a datajack on your forehead, but I can accept that for the sake of the game. But IMHO, it's an even sillier idea to think that it's permanently lost, even if you remove the datajack. I just find it to be a total underestimate of the body and mind's ability to mend its own "fabric", or however New Agers would put it.
edit:
Besides, the rules don't say anything about this "refillable essence pool" that someone mentioned earlier, but you must accept that or no one would ever be able to upgrade their cyberware unless they remained "cyber-celibate" (oi.) until they could get the best of the best.
hahnsoo
Oct 11 2005, 10:45 PM
It's been that way for 4 editions of Shadowrun. If you want to run things as a house rule in your own games, then feel free to do so, but also preface your forum posts that it is a house rule to avoid unnecessary confusion.
Gothic Rose
Oct 11 2005, 10:50 PM
An SR GM I gamed with used a rule that was:
For every year spent with a hole in your essence, reduce the hole by .1 essence.
So this meant that if a sammie retired and wanted to live a normal life, he could get rid of his 'ware, and his essence would SLOWLY regenerate.
Of course, a sammie with .019 essence left will take SIXTY YEARS to be whole (metaphysically) again.
hyzmarca
Oct 11 2005, 11:08 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
QUOTE (Superbum @ Oct 11 2005, 03:11 PM) | QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Oct 11 2005, 02:56 PM) | The current rules, however, don't have any rules at all for regaining Magic or Essence. This is a serious problem for the RAW vampire, who loses a point of Magic every month and can only regain them with Karma expenditure.
-Frank |
IIRC, essence lost from the Essence Loss weakness doesn't lower their magic rating permanantly. It just lowers its effective rating until the creature gets its essence back up. At least, thats how I read it.
|
No.
QUOTE (SR4) | Critters with Essence Loss have no actual Essence of their own and must drain Essence from others in order to survive. Beings with Essence Loss lose 1 point of Essence every lunar cycle (1 month). As Essence decreases, Magic may also be affected (see p. 62). |
QUOTE (SR4) | For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. |
So as long as your Vampire friend keeps their Essence above 6, they are good. Once it dips below 6, their Magic drops permanently every month until they get their Essence back up above 6.
-Frank
|
One quote says critter the other says character. The two are not the same.
blakkie
Oct 11 2005, 11:21 PM
Ah, RL gives way....
Anyway now i remember, the relavent quotes are on page 62 and page 264. On page 264 it gives the cost for raising the natural attribute, on page 62 it mentions the penalty imposed by having essense below 6. So it is a penalty to Magic/Resonance applied against the natural attribute value.
This also provides the explaination for Vampires since their essense loss is temporary, unlike BTL/'ware loss, so when the essense loss goes away so does the penalty. Unfortunately this is not expressed explicitly as it should be, like a lot of other things in SR. Ah well, the sacrifice of having SR4 out by Gencon, and squeezing as much territory into the BBB as they did. *sigh*
However in the RAW the Vampire is still humped if Initiated and essense drops low enough that the penalty caused Initiate Grades to be lost, because the text there isn't talking about a penalty to them. But instead that the Grade is flat out gone. Of course such a Vampire either did not purchase Magic to the maximum allowed by the Initiate Grade(s), or they are at zero essense and have only days to live.
P.S. Regarding loss of [use of] Magic paid for during chargen.
QUOTE (page 84) |
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also aff ect his Magic or Resonance (see p. 62). |
Nkari
Oct 11 2005, 11:59 PM
Yup, and my question was if you applied the Essence lost rules after you have finished buying your Magic attribute or not.. And from what I read the discussion here, and with some RL buddies, we in RL agree that it is applied _after_ you have bought the Magic Attribute with BP..
What happens with essence lost during gaming the book is quite clear on.
blakkie
Oct 12 2005, 04:12 AM
Yes, the post script is the section talking about your original question because that is directly from in the Cyberware/Bioware portion of chargen.
The rest of the post is just talking about the tangent that the thread headed off on, explaining why if you bought Magic to 5, then had 1 point of essense worth of 'ware put in, reducing your effective Magic to 4, that once in play you'd have to pay 6*3=18 karma to raise the effective Magic to 5.
Xenith
Oct 12 2005, 05:55 AM
So many obvious holes in the rules... makes my head hurt... the errata might be as long as the book itself...
blakkie
Oct 12 2005, 02:36 PM
QUOTE (Xenith) |
So many obvious holes in the rules... makes my head hurt... the errata might be as long as the book itself... |
It isn't so much a "hole" as that it requires very close reading to notice, and thus a place where a misunderstanding could easily happen. I knew it was around somewhere and it took me reading through those two page 3 times just to notice it.
Azralon
Oct 12 2005, 03:27 PM
QUOTE (Veggiesama @ Oct 11 2005, 05:35 PM) |
It's kind of a silly idea that some part of your "soul" is lost when you stick a datajack on your forehead, but I can accept that for the sake of the game. But IMHO, it's an even sillier idea to think that it's permanently lost, even if you remove the datajack. I just find it to be a total underestimate of the body and mind's ability to mend its own "fabric", or however New Agers would put it. |
You have the right to play with or without the RAW as you see fit, of course. If you see it as silly or not, it's still canon.
Essence loss is a mechanic built in to prevent people from becoming cybermages who can walk two "paths" at once without penalties. A character generation you decide if your particular path to power is one of three methods: implants, magic, or neither. Essence loss is permanent to enforce the dedication to one of those paths.
Sure, you can houserule whatever you want to negate that fundamental concept. Tell people that they can remove implants and spend karma to raise their Essence back up if you like. Heck, tell people they don't even have to remove the implants and their Essence will heal back up like Stun or Physical damage. Toss the whole Essence cost thing out the window for all the rest of us care.
Dim Sum
Oct 13 2005, 10:44 AM
Veggiesama, as Mr. Unpronoucable has mentioned, the character to which you refer from the novel wasn't written with SR4 rules as a guideline. In fact, IIRC, that novel came out during the reign of SR2?
Anyway, prior to SR4, once you Awakened, you automatically received a Magic rating of 6, reduced by whatever hits you'd taken from Essence loss. If you had a character who started off as a sammie with a drekload of cyber/bioware and had a remaining Essence of, say, 0.65, you'd still end up a burned-out mundane before your magic career took off. In this way, there is but a small difference between those rules and SR4. I guess for SR4, the developers just wanted to enforce the life paths a character chooses, as someone else has mentioned.
If you wanted to play a character who Awakens late in life, that's still perfectly possible. You simply would have create a mage, buy up the Magic attribute and work out with the GM when your Awakening happens - you both agree on when it happens or you may leave it to the GM to "surprise" you. If you want to be "realistic", you'd take whatever cyber/bioware you feel your character would have up till the time the campaign begins - when you Awaken, you start off with the reduced Magic. Perhaps he's a hacker and a Man Of Science © all his life and now has to deal with his Manifest Destiny © on the Mystical Path ©. Or a bodyguard who now welcomes the chance to learn new abilities and adapt them to his work.
Whatever the case, I guess this game mechanic can also serve to explain why the population of magicians is so low in the world. There might be more magicians out there if not so many people had cyber/bioware installed beyond their Magic ratings.
Fortune
Oct 13 2005, 01:37 PM
QUOTE (Dim Sum) |
In fact, IIRC, that novel came out during the reign of SR2? |
First edition, actually.