Is 'Superior' fluid or fixed?, Prime Runner rankings Options

[Velocity]

So I'm looking through the "Prime Runners" rules in the Shadowrun Companion and I'm wondering: how do you guys adjudicate generic NPCs with the assessments provided? To clarify: in Corporate Download, there are guidelines for the special forces ninja squads possessed by each corp (Red Samurai, Jaguar Guards, SSD, the Seraphim, FireWatch, etc.). Let's say that your PCs encounter an Ares FireWatch team early in their career, when they're all at around 50 Karma apiece. You--as the GM--build the FireWatch team accordingly, i.e. as 'Superior' to a group of characters build on approximately 50 Karma apiece.

[Superior (as a rating) means that the NPCs will have Skill and Attribute ratings roughly 1-2 points higher than the PCs' average.]

Later in the campaign, when the PCs are all at around 125 Karma apiece, they encounter another, different FireWatch team. Now, even though each FireWatch team is unique, they're all supposed to be roughly equal to each other. If the second team is equal to the first, then they'll also be slightly better than a group of 50-Karma PCs--and hence no match for a group of 125-Karma PCs. If you--as the GM--decide to follow the rules as they're written out on pp. 83-84 of Shadowrun Companion, you'd increase the power of the FireWatch team so they're STILL better than the PCs, even though the PCs have gained 75 Karma over time. This option suggests that the original FireWatch team was... what? A bizarre staffing anomaly? Drunk?

How do you adjudicate this in your campaigns?

[toturi]

The Ares Firewatch teams are the only elite force whose quality can vary wildly. If you read the description again, you will notice that the Firewatch team are "at least Superior".

But yes, following the canon rules in this case with respect to the other forces, does result in something that makes little game sense. Also if you follow the rules strictly, you will also note that it is the averages of the stats and skills that the opponents are supposed to be superior to. So a smart player may take many skills at rating 1 to lower his averages and suddenly the enemies facing him are weaker.

[fistandantilus4....]

for firewatch teams, really, jsut give their main skills (like Assault Rifles for arms master, that osrt of thing ) around an 8, 7's for secondary skills, that sort of thing. If you're running a street campaign, where your players are at 4 for their highest skills, it makes no sense for a Firewatch team to be at 6's in their main skills. So just use your best judgement at making them badass basically.

[Velocity]

[fistandantilus4....]

check out the adventure set "Coprorate Punishmnet". Has listings for Tir Ghosts, which IMO are a good set for an elite OPS team. As opposed to say the Res Sammies in Brainscan which are jsut a bit above average to most experienced runner teams.

[Dawnshadow]

If players have encountered a "standard level of training"/stock opponent early on, then the standard for that group is set.. they've improved, that level of opponent is now not as serious a threat.

Cranking them up to meet the new advanced runners is no fun, it makes the fact that the runners have gotten better worth less then they did, because the opponents who are all supposed to be trained the same are jumping up at the same time..

If you train and improve, then stock (as opposed to recurring threats) opponents should have to be upgraded to different, more powerful stock opponents, not just be ramped up so they're always "just a little better".

[Gothic Rose]

Although nothing says that there just can't be more.

Instead of ONE team of Red Samurai, there are TWO.

With AV Rockets, Panther Assault Cannons, and Dikoted Weapon Foci Katanas.

[Dawnshadow]

[Velocity]

Nova and Sunday_Gamer, heads up on an incoming spoiler...

For the record, I just built the 'Tir Ghost Sergeant (Unit Leader)' (from p. 35 of Corporate Punishment) and she came out to:

[ Spoiler ]

345 Karma, with a Karma Pool of 18. :eek:

Note that I considered the squad to be an Initiatory group for purposes of calculating her Initiation costs.

[hobgoblin]

this is realy a inherent problem of any rpg. sooner or later you should be able to take on anything and win unless there are some hard caps for everything, and the top enemys have caps just a bit above the caps for a pc.

still, people hate hard caps as those basicly makes the game limited on scope, sooner or later you run out of things to do...

[mfb]

Corporate Punishment has great stats for a specops team. it also highlights a roadblock for GMs who want to incorporate realistically-statted specops teams in runs for lowbie characters: there's no way in hell the characters should survive.

one solution would be to have the characters be a secondary objective, or not an objective, for the specops team. the specops guys are there to do a mission, and the runners happen to be in the way. if the runners are smart enough to clear the hell out (and the GM should make it clear how smart that would be), they won't have to engage the specops guys directly. hell, you could even have one specops team act as the runners' unwitting cavalry against another specops team. low-end runners are mice in the pantry; i think it's a bad idea to have them going up against the cats and winning.

in SR3, at least, "later" comes much, much later than other games.

[Velocity]

[Dawnshadow]

I think the canon rules are great --- for recurring threats.

A rogue team that's out for your blood.. the blood mage who's ritual you screwed over but managed to survive.. I'd toss them out the window for anything beyond the initial creation of an organization

[mfb]

now that i think about it, it's silly to have every team be statted exactly the same. identically equipped, yes, but it's crazy to think every team, and every member of every team, is going to be trained to the same level. they'll be trained above a certain minimum, sure (i'd say ~7-8), but there's nothing to say that team A might not be better than team B.

[Velocity]

I think the problem is that the 'Prime Runners' rules were designed for unique NPCs, i.e. other runners. That way, the GM could justify them keeping pace with the PCs and always being Equal (or Inferior, Superior, Ultimate, etc.) because presumably the NPC was out there earning Karma at roughly the same rate as the PCs. Fair play.

The trouble arises when published Shadowrun material began applying these designations to generic NPCs who should have fixed stats, like Red Samurai or Jaguar Guards. These people are relatively static -- they might get a little better over time -- and they should NOT keep pace with the runners.

[Dawnshadow]

MFB: You're right, they shouldn't be exactly the same, but they should be comperable. Slightly different skill spreads, slightly different tactics. Maybe the occassional "better" person in the team.. but there shouldn't be teams that are just "better" all around.

[caramel frappuci...]

I don't find it hard to believe at all that one team is better than another.

I do, however, think suspension of disbelief breaks down when every team you encounter is always slightly superior to you.

[Fortune]

[Fortune]

[Critias]

Every "super elite special forces special operations commando ninja" unit in the world is not created equal.

Maybe the lowbie specops team the 'runners ran across at ~30 karma was a training unit (even the recruits for the SAS can kick more ass than your average 'runner) for Firewatch, that got hastily equipped, told the whole thing was a "live fire exercise," and got sent to mop up your SR team 'cause the big boys were busy across town.

Maybe the Firewatch team they ran into ~75 karma was a group of hard-core Bug City vets, yes, but it was newly assigned to the Seattle Ares facilities, and wasn't yet accustomed to working together too well (but still definately gave them a run for their money). They were each still bad mo'fo's, but the team still managed to slip away because the Firewatch boys were still used to splat guns and Bug spirits.

Maybe the hardcore Firewatch team Ares sent after your ~250 'runners after they pulled that last big job are the big boys, a special fast-response team Ares doesn't keep stationed to any single facility, but rather specifically calls on for really important threats. When a tac-nuke would cause too much collateral damage (but they still want all the people in an area dead), they send in these guys.

I mean, to be completely honest? Any time the team screws up bad enough that any named unit (or, really, ANY military unit or even SWAT team) is gunning for them, they should probably die. But if you want to rationalize a way to have different "scales" or "power levels" of these special operations-style units, you can come up with a reason handily enough.

[Velocity]

[Glyph]

I agree with caramel frappucino, though. It doesn't make sense for every spec ops team to be slightly better than the PCs, no matter how much they improve. That doesn't mean that all spec ops teams should be equal, but as the PCs improve, they should be better than some of them.

If you want to improve the spec ops teams without making the PCs feel like all of their Karma expenditures were meaningless, maybe you could have a spec ops team with the "old" stats attack the team, and retreat when they realize they are outclassed by the PCs. Then the next spec ops team can be the "improved" one. Now you're still challenging the PCs, but they also get to feel like they have truly gotten better, and can feel some pride that the corp had to send the really good team after them.

Of course, improving enemy stats is not the only way to make them tougher. You could send the same team after the PCs - with reinforcements close by if needed.

[Critias]

[SL James]

How can you justify it? The same way a four-man group of Blackwater ex-commandoes was ambushed and gunned down in Fallujah. They were of vary levels of experience and time out of practice, they have never worked with each other, and they all came from different teams with different operational styles.

Gee whiz, that sounds a lot like Firewatch. They hire people from all manner of units, some of whom don't automatically speak the same language, and then throw them into a mess together.

Maybe they ought to go back to the setup in Burning Bright where there were three Firewatch teams, and they were horribly awesome. But the ship's already kind of sailed on that since Corporate Download.

[FrostyNSO]