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Velocity
So I'm looking through the "Prime Runners" rules in the Shadowrun Companion and I'm wondering: how do you guys adjudicate generic NPCs with the assessments provided? To clarify: in Corporate Download, there are guidelines for the special forces ninja squads possessed by each corp (Red Samurai, Jaguar Guards, SSD, the Seraphim, FireWatch, etc.). Let's say that your PCs encounter an Ares FireWatch team early in their career, when they're all at around 50 Karma apiece. You--as the GM--build the FireWatch team accordingly, i.e. as 'Superior' to a group of characters build on approximately 50 Karma apiece.

[Superior (as a rating) means that the NPCs will have Skill and Attribute ratings roughly 1-2 points higher than the PCs' average.]

Later in the campaign, when the PCs are all at around 125 Karma apiece, they encounter another, different FireWatch team. Now, even though each FireWatch team is unique, they're all supposed to be roughly equal to each other. If the second team is equal to the first, then they'll also be slightly better than a group of 50-Karma PCs--and hence no match for a group of 125-Karma PCs. If you--as the GM--decide to follow the rules as they're written out on pp. 83-84 of Shadowrun Companion, you'd increase the power of the FireWatch team so they're STILL better than the PCs, even though the PCs have gained 75 Karma over time. This option suggests that the original FireWatch team was... what? A bizarre staffing anomaly? Drunk?

How do you adjudicate this in your campaigns?
toturi
The Ares Firewatch teams are the only elite force whose quality can vary wildly. If you read the description again, you will notice that the Firewatch team are "at least Superior".

But yes, following the canon rules in this case with respect to the other forces, does result in something that makes little game sense. Also if you follow the rules strictly, you will also note that it is the averages of the stats and skills that the opponents are supposed to be superior to. So a smart player may take many skills at rating 1 to lower his averages and suddenly the enemies facing him are weaker.
fistandantilus4.0
for firewatch teams, really, jsut give their main skills (like Assault Rifles for arms master, that osrt of thing ) around an 8, 7's for secondary skills, that sort of thing. If you're running a street campaign, where your players are at 4 for their highest skills, it makes no sense for a Firewatch team to be at 6's in their main skills. So just use your best judgement at making them badass basically.
Velocity
QUOTE (toturi)
The Ares Firewatch teams are the only elite force whose quality can vary wildly. If you read the description again, you will notice that the Firewatch team are "at least Superior".

I chose FireWatch out of a hat; just substitute 'Seraphim' or 'Red Samurai' in my question if it makes more sense. The Red Sams are supposed to be of almost identical skill and training across the board, for instance. Same for the Jaguar Guards.
fistandantilus4.0
check out the adventure set "Coprorate Punishmnet". Has listings for Tir Ghosts, which IMO are a good set for an elite OPS team. As opposed to say the Res Sammies in Brainscan which are jsut a bit above average to most experienced runner teams.
Dawnshadow
If players have encountered a "standard level of training"/stock opponent early on, then the standard for that group is set.. they've improved, that level of opponent is now not as serious a threat.

Cranking them up to meet the new advanced runners is no fun, it makes the fact that the runners have gotten better worth less then they did, because the opponents who are all supposed to be trained the same are jumping up at the same time..

If you train and improve, then stock (as opposed to recurring threats) opponents should have to be upgraded to different, more powerful stock opponents, not just be ramped up so they're always "just a little better".
Gothic Rose
Although nothing says that there just can't be more.

Instead of ONE team of Red Samurai, there are TWO.

With AV Rockets, Panther Assault Cannons, and Dikoted Weapon Foci Katanas.
Dawnshadow
QUOTE (Gothic Rose)
Although nothing says that there just can't be more.

Instead of ONE team of Red Samurai, there are TWO.

With AV Rockets, Panther Assault Cannons, and Dikoted Weapon Foci Katanas.

There are dozens. All of which are trained to the same level, have pretty much the same gear, and so forth. Minor variance, one team is pretty well the same as the other -- so you know what you're getting when a Red Samurai team, for instance, gets sent in.

Until you get into unique teams with special training and features (which I actually have trouble picturing corps doing really -- except for the "photogenic" team) then all teams should be pretty well identical, so there should be no "ramping up" of the power of Red Samurai after they've been encountered without very public stuff for "Upgrades and retraining"..
Velocity
Nova and Sunday_Gamer, heads up on an incoming spoiler...

For the record, I just built the 'Tir Ghost Sergeant (Unit Leader)' (from p. 35 of Corporate Punishment) and she came out to:

[ Spoiler ]

Note that I considered the squad to be an Initiatory group for purposes of calculating her Initiation costs.
hobgoblin
this is realy a inherent problem of any rpg. sooner or later you should be able to take on anything and win unless there are some hard caps for everything, and the top enemys have caps just a bit above the caps for a pc.

still, people hate hard caps as those basicly makes the game limited on scope, sooner or later you run out of things to do...
mfb
Corporate Punishment has great stats for a specops team. it also highlights a roadblock for GMs who want to incorporate realistically-statted specops teams in runs for lowbie characters: there's no way in hell the characters should survive.

one solution would be to have the characters be a secondary objective, or not an objective, for the specops team. the specops guys are there to do a mission, and the runners happen to be in the way. if the runners are smart enough to clear the hell out (and the GM should make it clear how smart that would be), they won't have to engage the specops guys directly. hell, you could even have one specops team act as the runners' unwitting cavalry against another specops team. low-end runners are mice in the pantry; i think it's a bad idea to have them going up against the cats and winning.

in SR3, at least, "later" comes much, much later than other games.
Velocity
QUOTE (Dawnshadow)
If players have encountered a "standard level of training"/stock opponent early on, then the standard for that group is set.. they've improved, that level of opponent is now not as serious a threat.

I agree with you 100%, except that this approach completely ignores that rules for 'Prime Runners' presented in the SRComp. Not that that's a bad thing -- I'm no canon-junkie -- but it's worth mentioning.
Dawnshadow
I think the canon rules are great --- for recurring threats.

A rogue team that's out for your blood.. the blood mage who's ritual you screwed over but managed to survive.. I'd toss them out the window for anything beyond the initial creation of an organization
mfb
now that i think about it, it's silly to have every team be statted exactly the same. identically equipped, yes, but it's crazy to think every team, and every member of every team, is going to be trained to the same level. they'll be trained above a certain minimum, sure (i'd say ~7-cool.gif, but there's nothing to say that team A might not be better than team B.
Velocity
I think the problem is that the 'Prime Runners' rules were designed for unique NPCs, i.e. other runners. That way, the GM could justify them keeping pace with the PCs and always being Equal (or Inferior, Superior, Ultimate, etc.) because presumably the NPC was out there earning Karma at roughly the same rate as the PCs. Fair play.

The trouble arises when published Shadowrun material began applying these designations to generic NPCs who should have fixed stats, like Red Samurai or Jaguar Guards. These people are relatively static -- they might get a little better over time -- and they should NOT keep pace with the runners.
Dawnshadow
MFB: You're right, they shouldn't be exactly the same, but they should be comperable. Slightly different skill spreads, slightly different tactics. Maybe the occassional "better" person in the team.. but there shouldn't be teams that are just "better" all around.
caramel frappucino
I don't find it hard to believe at all that one team is better than another.

I do, however, think suspension of disbelief breaks down when every team you encounter is always slightly superior to you.
Fortune
QUOTE (Velocity)
The trouble arises when published Shadowrun material began applying these designations to generic NPCs who should have fixed stats, like Red Samurai or Jaguar Guards. These people are relatively static -- they might get a little better over time -- and they should NOT keep pace with the runners.

Why not?
Fortune
QUOTE (caramel frappucino @ Oct 17 2005, 02:19 AM)
I don't find it hard to believe at all that one team is better than another.

I do, however, think suspension of disbelief breaks down when every team you encounter is always slightly superior to you.

I agree. When the Characters get to a certain level, the opposition shouldn't necessarily always be static. There should be Firewatch teams that are slightly lower in scale compared to the group, just as there should be ones that have been around and together for years, and as such are still considered superior, no matter what the PC's Karma level.
Critias
Every "super elite special forces special operations commando ninja" unit in the world is not created equal.

Maybe the lowbie specops team the 'runners ran across at ~30 karma was a training unit (even the recruits for the SAS can kick more ass than your average 'runner) for Firewatch, that got hastily equipped, told the whole thing was a "live fire exercise," and got sent to mop up your SR team 'cause the big boys were busy across town.

Maybe the Firewatch team they ran into ~75 karma was a group of hard-core Bug City vets, yes, but it was newly assigned to the Seattle Ares facilities, and wasn't yet accustomed to working together too well (but still definately gave them a run for their money). They were each still bad mo'fo's, but the team still managed to slip away because the Firewatch boys were still used to splat guns and Bug spirits.

Maybe the hardcore Firewatch team Ares sent after your ~250 'runners after they pulled that last big job are the big boys, a special fast-response team Ares doesn't keep stationed to any single facility, but rather specifically calls on for really important threats. When a tac-nuke would cause too much collateral damage (but they still want all the people in an area dead), they send in these guys.

I mean, to be completely honest? Any time the team screws up bad enough that any named unit (or, really, ANY military unit or even SWAT team) is gunning for them, they should probably die. But if you want to rationalize a way to have different "scales" or "power levels" of these special operations-style units, you can come up with a reason handily enough.
Velocity
QUOTE (Velocity)
This option suggests that the original FireWatch team was... what? A bizarre staffing anomaly? Drunk?

QUOTE (Critias)
Maybe the lowbie specops team the 'runners ran across at ~30 karma was a training unit (even the recruits for the SAS can kick more ass than your average 'runner) for Firewatch, that got hastily equipped, told the whole thing was a "live fire exercise," and got sent to mop up your SR team 'cause the big boys were busy across town.

So ka
Glyph
I agree with caramel frappucino, though. It doesn't make sense for every spec ops team to be slightly better than the PCs, no matter how much they improve. That doesn't mean that all spec ops teams should be equal, but as the PCs improve, they should be better than some of them.

If you want to improve the spec ops teams without making the PCs feel like all of their Karma expenditures were meaningless, maybe you could have a spec ops team with the "old" stats attack the team, and retreat when they realize they are outclassed by the PCs. Then the next spec ops team can be the "improved" one. Now you're still challenging the PCs, but they also get to feel like they have truly gotten better, and can feel some pride that the corp had to send the really good team after them.

Of course, improving enemy stats is not the only way to make them tougher. You could send the same team after the PCs - with reinforcements close by if needed.
Critias
QUOTE (Glyph)
It doesn't make sense for every spec ops team to be slightly better than the PCs...

Right. Generally speaking, until the PC's hit ~250 karma (and spend all of it along the way on combat usefull stuff, and all the money along the way on combat usefull enhancements), a specops team shouldn't be "slightly" better than them.
SL James
How can you justify it? The same way a four-man group of Blackwater ex-commandoes was ambushed and gunned down in Fallujah. They were of vary levels of experience and time out of practice, they have never worked with each other, and they all came from different teams with different operational styles.

Gee whiz, that sounds a lot like Firewatch. They hire people from all manner of units, some of whom don't automatically speak the same language, and then throw them into a mess together.

Maybe they ought to go back to the setup in Burning Bright where there were three Firewatch teams, and they were horribly awesome. But the ship's already kind of sailed on that since Corporate Download.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (SL James @ Oct 16 2005, 10:02 PM)
How can you justify it? The same way a four-man group of Blackwater ex-commandoes was ambushed and gunned down in Fallujah. They were of vary levels of experience and time out of practice, they have never worked with each other, and they all came from different teams with different operational styles.

Heh, to puncuate your statement about the "hasty" assembly of that unit, I think they only had 3. They were short a guy!

At least as far as I can remember, maybe it was 4 when they were supposed to have 5. My google is so weak today that I didn't bother.
Arab_One
QUOTE (Critias)
Maybe the hardcore Firewatch team Ares sent after your ~250 'runners after they pulled that last big job are the big boys, a special fast-response team Ares doesn't keep stationed to any single facility, but rather specifically calls on for really important threats.  When a tac-nuke would cause too much collateral damage (but they still want all the people in an area dead), they send in these guys.

I have a firewatch unit specifically for this purpose. I made up their stats and let the players run a once off mission as these guys. Any time an NPC simply drops their name into a conversation the runners get jumpy.
My initial idea was that Trolls are annoying in teams, since they need their own equipment, can't swap with other members, and are really hard to carry if they go down. Solution? Put them in a team together.
This became the "message sender team" for when collateral damage was unimportant and you wanted the world to know that someone messed with Ares and got done for it.
Firewatch Unit 13 (self-named) "unlucky for some".
Nothing makes Runners go in their shorts quicker than six mil-spec trolls with the some of the best training that money can buy.
SL James
They were four, and should have had six. They had no rear gunners in either SUV.

What a waste. All for some friggin' empty trucks picking up kitchen equipment.

Link

But, of course, Firewatch would never underman a team.
toturi
People are providing IC reasons for OOC game stats. So because these guys have not gelled as a team, so we give them lesser stats?

OK, since someone else brought this up (and the last time I brought this up on the old forums, I never did get a satisfactory answer): If the big boys of Firewatch/Red Sam/Jag Guards are really the big boys this time, what would happen to justify the bigger boys of above-mentioned elite force that are thrown at you down the line... say a couple of days later since (assuming) that the runners wiped the floor with the big boys and earned themselves a VLCC-load of karma?

Remember by the canon rules, the average Attributes and skills of the superior/superhuman/etc NPCs are better than the averages of the PCs (see p84 SRComp). There is absolutely no canon justification for "better equipped/better informed/etc" since the Superior rating only specifies Skill and Attributes.
Critias
I'm already stretching my own ability to suspend disbelief by helping out just a little bit. I always have been, and always will be, of the opinion that the PCs should be dead the first time, and the GM should never have to do any rationalizing like this. If they've cocked up bad enough a Firewatch/Ghost/Red Samurai/SWAT team is specifically gunning for them, the GM would have to be a complete and total worthless asshat to not kill them all in about three rounds (if even that long). The "uh oh, now I've got to upgrade the super badass NPCs to I can throw more of them at my players and get this unit killed, too," scenario should not ever have to happen, much less happen multiple times.

I'm sorry if my hastily constructed attempts at justification for a stupid rules-set that shouldn't, realistically, ever present a scenario such as the one that initiated the question more than once per game didn't satisfy you, Toturi.
toturi
QUOTE (Critias)
I'm sorry if my hastily constructed attempts at justification for a stupid rules-set that shouldn't, realistically, ever present a scenario such as the one that initiated the question more than once per game didn't satisfy you, Toturi.

I always have been, and always will be, of the opinion that although the PCs should be dead the first time, and the GM should never have to do any rationalizing like this, the PCs (players) might not die, unless the Ultimate NPC is brought forth. Again by canon, Superior/Superhuman NPC/s need not necessarily have superior(the "s" is not capitaled to differentiate from the Superior) gear, although they usually should.

The "uh oh, now I've got to upgrade the super badass NPCs to I can throw more of them at my players and get this unit killed, too," scenario should not ever have to happen, much less happen multiple times, but will inevitably happen anyway.

Back on topic, despite the (im)probability of surviving multiple Superior teams of NPCs, does anyone have any plausible reason to suggest this continued Superiority of the NPCs?
Velocity
This doesn't really address toturi's question, but perhaps it will clarify my initial question:

Summer 2053: 30-Karma PCs encounter a group of Leopard Guards. According to Corporate Download (p. 128): "Leopard Guards should be considered Equal or Superior (...)" PCs wisely beat a hasty retreat and do their best to avoid conflict with the Leopard Guards. They are mostly successful and survive the scenario intact.

Spring 2054: 100-Karma PCs play extended cat-and-mouse game with a different team of Leopard Guards. Though high-stakes, game is essentially non-violent. PCs succeed through meticulous planning, rigorous discipline and a little luck.

Winter 54-55: 200-Karma PCs go toe-to-toe with a third team of Leopard Guards. What happens?

Sumer 2056: 260-Karma PCs square off against yet another, fourth team of Leopard Guards. Are they good enough to beat them yet?

At what point do PCs become good enough that it's no longer reasonable to have Superior opponents mop the floor with them? 100 Karma? 200? 500?

N.B.: I'm not being facetious, I'm really trying to figure this out.
Apathy
My general guideline is that as the runners progress, and build reputation and karma, they're getting offered tougher (and more lucrative) jobs against more secure facilities. The fast-response team for the Ares factory that makes soy-latte machines probably wouldn't be as impressive as the Ares fast-response team that defends the armored lynx factory, and they in turn won't be as elite as the Ares fast-response team for the magical r&d facility where they're experimenting with paranormal flesh-form merges.

That being said, if the over-200-karma runners got drunk, and decided to go back to steal a french press from the first factory they ever ran against for old times sake, they would see that the fast response team for that factory now seemed pretty lame.

So, I guess that means that I keep the threat level of a particular response team fixed, but that I have a variable degree of uber-ness among different response teams for the same company.

[edit]I should also note that my PCs usually do have higher skills than the guards and FRTs, but that the guards make up the difference with superior knowledge of their home turf, and superior equipement, etc.
Velocity
QUOTE (Apathy)
The fast-response team for the Ares factory that makes soy-latte machines probably wouldn't be as impressive as the Ares fast-response team that defends the armored lynx factory, and they in turn won't be as elite as the Ares fast-response team for the magical r&d facility where they're experimenting with paranormal flesh-form merges.

My point is that all Renraku Red Samurai teams are supposed be more-or-less identical, as are all AZT Jaguar and Leopard Guard teams, etc.
Fortune
QUOTE (Velocity @ Oct 18 2005, 03:02 AM)
My point is that all Renraku Red Samurai teams are supposed be more-or-less identical, as are all AZT Jaguar and Leopard Guard teams, etc.

But that premise is kind of silly in and of itself.

I don't understand why the PCs can improve themselves, getting 'better' over the course of the game, but their opposition is expected to remain static, never training or increasing their skills.
Mystweaver
Our characters are between 400-700 karma each. Our GM therefore gives us higher paying runs against corporations that have decent magical protection and troups that have high end equipment. Some of these have new NERPS equipment never seen before by the group. Some of it is low end but high tech, some is generally excellent gear (though most is blown to crap by the Dwarf's nades).

Bare in mind the story below my have relevant links to Renraku Shutdown, but I think it is more something our GM put in to make things a little (understatement) harder for our high powered group.

Currently the hardest thing we have come across was an assault on our secret base in Redmund Barrens. The base was an abandonned school that had a Wraith inhabiting it. After banishing the wraith and cleansing the area, and huge basement was dug by earth elementals and fortified. On each corner of the square building were Smart mines covered with ruthidium polymers. Inside covering main entrance ways were Ares Sentry guns with Vindicators and APDS Ammo.

The assault came in the form of 5 Banshee's from Renraku. One was shot down by the Dwarf with his Assault Cannon, another was taken down as the Adept Rifleman took out the pilot with his baretta 121. The third Napalmed the front of the building only to be taken out moments later by two wind elementals and a fire elemental (Commanded by the mage) and an acid wave (commanded by the sorcerer.

The team then retreated into the building and awaited the two now landing and the troups that were about to issue forth. Fortunately the smartmines killed about half of the 80 heavy military soldiers that came marching into the building.

Of the 40 or so surviving soldiers, the first ranks were ripped to shreds by the Vindicators and the Invisible Adept Swordsman waylaid a group of 10. The others were cleared up by the rest of the team efficiently taking out magical threats first.

Unfortunately the Renraku troopers all had cortex bombs. By the time they went off however, most of the crew had already retreated into the basement. The school above was demolished when they all went off and some of the runners were burried alive. After an hour or two's work by earth elementals, all the runners managed to survive (after many tests of endurance by those crushed).


They managed to get a small percentage of their stuff out but once they got to the surface they realised the decker/rigger was missing and so too was their chopper (that was parked in a garage with opening roof).

So there went a base that cost the party about 5million nuyen to put together. We were a little pissed but it paid off as we still survived.

Next to that is fights with Dragons and their minions. Probably has hard as it gets then.
Apathy
QUOTE (Velocity)
QUOTE (Apathy @ Oct 17 2005, 12:54 PM)
The fast-response team for the Ares factory that makes soy-latte machines probably wouldn't be as impressive as the Ares fast-response team that defends the armored lynx factory, and they in turn won't be as elite as the Ares fast-response team for the magical r&d facility where they're experimenting with paranormal flesh-form merges.

My point is that all Renraku Red Samurai teams are supposed be more-or-less identical, as are all AZT Jaguar and Leopard Guard teams, etc.

I don't agree with this approach. In my games, all Red Samurai are not created equal. That being said, by the time the PCs are over 150 karma, they're usually tougher one-on-one than any individual Red Sam. The Red Sam's only advantages are knowledge of the facility, access to superior firepower in the form of facility drones, etc, and the ability to call in unlimited reinforcements given enough time.
SL James
QUOTE (Critias)
I'm already stretching my own ability to suspend disbelief by helping out just a little bit. I always have been, and always will be, of the opinion that the PCs should be dead the first time, and the GM should never have to do any rationalizing like this. If they've cocked up bad enough a Firewatch/Ghost/Red Samurai/SWAT team is specifically gunning for them, the GM would have to be a complete and total worthless asshat to not kill them all in about three rounds (if even that long). The "uh oh, now I've got to upgrade the super badass NPCs to I can throw more of them at my players and get this unit killed, too," scenario should not ever have to happen, much less happen multiple times.

I'm sorry if my hastily constructed attempts at justification for a stupid rules-set that shouldn't, realistically, ever present a scenario such as the one that initiated the question more than once per game didn't satisfy you, Toturi.

Well, specops can't all be badass. Otherwise, how do you explain all of these ex-[fill in the blank] running the shadows?
Velocity
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Velocity @ Oct 18 2005, 03:02 AM)
My point is that all Renraku Red Samurai teams are supposed be more-or-less identical, as are all AZT Jaguar and Leopard Guard teams, etc.

But that premise is kind of silly in and of itself.

I agree, but that's how--IMO, IIRC--they're presented in the sourcebooks.
toturi
I have tried to answer the question by flipping it around. What if the PCs were Red Sams(alternate campaign SRComp 3rd Ed) instead and the NPCs were the runners? Does that mean that the Red Sams would be always Superhuman, then what if the PCs (who are Red Sams) meet up with the Jag Guards? Who would be better? By canon rules, the Guards would be superior since they are the NPCs, while in any other normal encounter, the Sams would be pwn the Guards. The SR3 universe implodes! wobble.gif
Velocity
Thanks for injecting a little dose of surreality. biggrin.gif

Okay, let's try this another way: where have stats for these assorted 'elite' troops been printed? Do we have any canonical stuff to look at?
Cain
Look, there's nothing saying that specops teams *have* to be superior each and every time. SRComp makes it pretty clear that the levels are just guidelines.

So, when the team starts, the typical Red Samurai unit is superior to them. However, as time progresses, eventually the team catches up-- now they're Equal. That doesn't mean the GM can't introduce a specialized Red Samurai squad that's still Superior to them-- but it does mean that he's got to change the average treat level of his game. Instead of facing nameless grunts as the main opposition, they're now facing Red Samurai grunts. The scary Superior enemy is still a Red Samurai unit; only now it's a more elite one.
toturi
SRComp makes it clear that there is variation within those levels themselves. While those rules are guidelines, they are also game mechanics. What says that the NPCs will/should/are better than the runners are the descriptions in the other books like Corp Download.

The ratings system in SRComp are just that, a way to rate the opposition you are throwing at the PC. What is inflexible is the way it is used. For example, corp spec ops like Red Sams are rated Superior/Superhuman. Period. Compare that with the description of Asset Inc. (DOTSW), you will see the difference. I can use Assets as NPCs and the believability doesn't go out the window, but if I use Renraku Reds, the universe implodes!
SL James
"SRComp makes it clear that there is variation within those levels themselves."

Well, reality does too.

So, do you treat Assets, Inc. mages like redshirts?
toturi
Superior: 1 to 2 points higher
Superhuman: 3 or more points higher

Assets: Superhuman OR Superior/Equal if high powered PCs.

So I do not quite understand what you are asking, James.
Velocity
Maybe I should re-phrase my question again, more succinctly:

At what Karma level do you think a group of PCs should plausibly be able to go toe-to-toe with a Superior-ranked special ops ninjalicious doom squad? What about Superhuman? 100 Karma? 150? 300? N.B.: "toe-to-toe" does not necessarily mean a firefight or whatever; I'm referring to a fair competition on neutral ground where neither side has an advantage in gear or circumstance.

Apathy suggested that a 150-Karma PC should probably outclass a Red Samurai (rated Superhuman)--what does everyone else think?

(I think we can all agree that Ultimate NPCs will always be, well, ultimate.)

For the record, Corporate Download tells us that:

[ Spoiler ]
Fortune
QUOTE (Velocity @ Oct 18 2005, 10:46 PM)
At what Karma level do you think a group of PCs should plausibly be able to go toe-to-toe with a Superior-ranked special ops ninjalicious doom squad?  What about Superhuman?  100 Karma?  150?  300?

And my answer is ... probably all of those ... and none!

Each group comes with members and teams of varying levels. It is up to the GM as to what level of opposition is appropriate (or available) at that specific time.
Gothic Rose
Superior - equal to around 75 karma

Superhuman - equal to around 150 karma

Ultimate - equal to your FACE.
mmu1
Could someone post some basic stats for - for example - an average Red Samurai? Or are there none published, and they're just rated "superhuman"? If you could directly compare them to runner stats, it'd make this a lot easier.

I happen to think that the "superior" and "superhuman" ratings are static, and are in comparison to baseline professional-level (as opposed to street level) runners - but then a question still remains of what constitutes a typical runner. The archetypes in SR3? Any PC I ever ran qualifies as at least "superior" to any of those at chargen...
Critias
You can wiggle around and find out some generic stats for Red Samurai, I think, somewhere in Brainscan (unless it was heavily house ruled/modified/altered by my gaming group, lots of Deus' security dudes were brainwashed Red Sammies).

Also, as someone mentioned, there are published stats for Ghosts in an adventure (the name of which I can't recall right now).
Apathy
It's also worth noting that using karma as a benchmark only works if both the PCs and the opposition use it the same way. My PC might not be ready to take on the Red Sams at 75 karma if I spent 30 of those karma points raising my guitar skill for role-playing reasons...

And the opposition is rarely stupid enough to try to take on the PCs in a one-on-one 'fair faight' anyway, when they have the option of superior numbers, better firepower, armor, etc.
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