Alternate initiative & movement system Options

[Chandon]

I don't really like the initiative system in Shadowrun 4th edition. This is the result of a couple obvious factors:
- First, I've been playing too much Deadlands recently - a game with an excellent initiative system.
- Second, my players are giant twinks when it comes to taking actions in an RPG. They play like it's chess or D&D-on-a-battlemat or something. (so... If I shoot then move I can get no penalty for moving and end up in full cover, right?)
- Third, I loved the flavor effect of the 2nd edition initiative rules where a wired street samurai got to kill everyone before they moved. That was cool.

So... what do you guys think of the following?
http://ferrus.net/nat/chandon-card-combat-...t-1st-draft.txt

Goals:
- Fast people get more actions without them being all first or all last.
- Movement is well defined, so that everyone can twink it equally.

[Crusher Bob]

Sounds a bit clunky, but if you are used to the deaadlands init system already, it will probabylrun just fine.

A possible faster alternative stolen from 7th sea is each round has 6? phases. Roll an number of dice equal to your initiative passes. The numbers showing on the dice are the phases your actions occur in.

[Chandon]

So, Crusher Bob, what do you think of the movement system. Do you not have a problem with the SR4 system being insufficiently well defined?

Just to clarify where my problem with the existing movement system is, under the SR4 rules it looks like the following is possible for someone with 3 initiative passes:
In three seconds: Starting from a dead stop shoot twice and move 6 meters to the left into full cover behind a building. Then, move six meters to the right out of cover, put a bullet into an enemy and draw a sniper rifle. Then, move 6 meters forward around a corner, scope in, and shoot an enemy down the street. Think about that for a second, and think about the fact that any one of the shoot-move actions could have been shoot-don't move actions to get rid of the two dice movement penalty, and then could automatically be followed by another shoot-move action at no penalty.

The system you suggest for determining action order is neat and looks like a clean and simple solution to that part of my problem (although I like the whole "playing with cards" aspect of the deadlands system). The only issue I see with the system is the possibility of rolling duplicate numbers. I guess you could just go twice in a row if that happened.

[Azralon]

[Crusher Bob]

From what I remember of the way it happens in 7ths Sea, everyone on the same order goes with the 'lhigest' initiative (total of all your initiative dice) going first. Example: (7th sea uses d10s) guy one has init (1, 4, 6) and guy two has init (6, 6). As guy 2 has the higher total (12) he goes first, then init looks like guy 1 (1, 4, 6) guy 2 (6). As guy1 now has the higher total, he goes next. Then guy 2 goes again as his is the only remaining action at 6.

As for the movement system, I'm a bit worried about how running and sprinting take actions to stop and start. While nice in theory, the fact that you only get one action to stop means that some oddities can occur. For example, you are sprinting. Your action rolls around and you use it to keep sprinting. However something happens suddenly (say, your buddy yells, "stop!"), the minimum distance it takes you to stop is 24 meters (assming a human). If you haven't spend your action for the turn yet, you can slow to a run and then to a walk and only go 8 meters. Part of the problem is with the 'grainyness' of the action system. This system does seem better than the stock SR4 movement system, I think it could use a bit more work. One possibility is to lower the number of successes on an init test required to get an extra action.

Some numbers:
normal joe (init 6)
Normal max human (init 12)
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?)
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?)

Needing 2 successes:
normal joe (init 6) 2 passes
Normal max human (init 12) 3 passes
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?) 4-5 passes
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?) 7 passes

Needing 3 successes:
normal joe (init 6) 1.67 passes
Normal max human (init 12) 2.33 passes
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?) 4-4.33 passes
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?) 6 passes

As for how long 'far' it takes you to stop sprinting, I'm not sure. Anyone want to try an experiment?

[Chandon]

[blakkie]

[Chandon]

[evil1i]

Running should be a simple action not a free one and Sprinting should be a complex action otherwise you will get the situation of a fully maxed Troll running at over 60 Km/h!! (Micheal Johnson - fastest man currently - 37.2Km/h)

Troll max Str 15 + Running Skill 7 + Synthacardium 2 + Enhanced Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 = 26 dice = 8 hits average = +16 m = 51 m/turn = 61.2 Km/h!!

Now someone else can do the math but 350 odd kilos (a max strength Troll must be pretty much near as heavy as he could get!) running into you at 60+ Km/h would not be a good experience!

[evil1i]

and if the unheard of happens and that Troll actually rolls all hits! he would then be moving at 104.4 Km/h!

as it is a human also maxed out in the same way will do on average 44.4 Km/h (+20% better than Micheal Johnson) and 54 Km/h if you roll all hits.

Now whilst these aren't overly high when you consider this is representing the fastest man and science can get a metahuman to move it is a little bit over the top when you consider that same Troll can fire a long-burst from an assault rifle whilst doing that to soften you up for when he slams into you! If you are sprinting your box off you should not be able to do anything else except a free action.

[Chandon]

[Serbitar]

Just change the initiative pass order from

1234

to

3142

[Chandon]

[evil1i]

A friend of mine has started a new initiative system for our games to combat the "everyone goes and then the fast people go 15 times". Basically it is an initiative matrix. I've done up a quick mockup and you can find it here

I have put 5 people and their initiative results on the diagram.

Ace - 1 pass Initiative 9
Bud - 2 passes Initiative 12
Creep - 2 passes Initiative 8
Dude - 3 passes Initiative 11
Evil1i - 4 passes Initiative 16

Then placed their names and Initiative in the corresponding boxes on the matrix. It means that the order of action goes as follows:

Int pass 4 people get 1st action in order of initiative. (Evil1i)

then

Int pass 3 people get 1st action in order of initiative. (Dude)

then

Int pass 4 and Int pass 2 people get their 2nd and 1st actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Evil1i, Bud then Creep)

then

Int pass 3 and Int pass 1 people get their 2nd and 1st actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Dude then Ace)

then

Int pass 4 people and Int pass 2 get their 3rd and 2nd actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Evil1i, Bud then Creep)

then

Int pass 3 people get their 3rd action in order of initiative. (Dude)

then

Int pass 4 people get their 4th action in order of initiative. (Evil1i)

this system represents everyone getting their actions roughly where they would in a 3 sec turn. Whilst it sounds complicated and cumbersome, when you use the matrix (we have ours laminated and use whiteboard markers) it actually runs as quick as regular initiative.

[Namergon]

evil1i: I don't catch the schema of the action order you set. Could you explain please?

Chandon:

[Nkari]

[Chandon]

[evil1i]