I don't really like the initiative system in Shadowrun 4th edition. This is the result of a couple obvious factors:
- First, I've been playing too much Deadlands recently - a game with an excellent initiative system.
- Second, my players are giant twinks when it comes to taking actions in an RPG. They play like it's chess or D&D-on-a-battlemat or something. (so... If I shoot then move I can get no penalty for moving and end up in full cover, right?)
- Third, I loved the flavor effect of the 2nd edition initiative rules where a wired street samurai got to kill everyone before they moved. That was cool.
So... what do you guys think of the following?
http://ferrus.net/nat/chandon-card-combat-...t-1st-draft.txt
Goals:
- Fast people get more actions without them being all first or all last.
- Movement is well defined, so that everyone can twink it equally.
Full Version: Alternate initiative & movement system
Sounds a bit clunky, but if you are used to the deaadlands init system already, it will probabylrun just fine.
A possible faster alternative stolen from 7th sea is each round has 6? phases. Roll an number of dice equal to your initiative passes. The numbers showing on the dice are the phases your actions occur in.
A possible faster alternative stolen from 7th sea is each round has 6? phases. Roll an number of dice equal to your initiative passes. The numbers showing on the dice are the phases your actions occur in.
So, Crusher Bob, what do you think of the movement system. Do you not have a problem with the SR4 system being insufficiently well defined?
Just to clarify where my problem with the existing movement system is, under the SR4 rules it looks like the following is possible for someone with 3 initiative passes:
In three seconds: Starting from a dead stop shoot twice and move 6 meters to the left into full cover behind a building. Then, move six meters to the right out of cover, put a bullet into an enemy and draw a sniper rifle. Then, move 6 meters forward around a corner, scope in, and shoot an enemy down the street. Think about that for a second, and think about the fact that any one of the shoot-move actions could have been shoot-don't move actions to get rid of the two dice movement penalty, and then could automatically be followed by another shoot-move action at no penalty.
The system you suggest for determining action order is neat and looks like a clean and simple solution to that part of my problem (although I like the whole "playing with cards" aspect of the deadlands system). The only issue I see with the system is the possibility of rolling duplicate numbers. I guess you could just go twice in a row if that happened.
Just to clarify where my problem with the existing movement system is, under the SR4 rules it looks like the following is possible for someone with 3 initiative passes:
In three seconds: Starting from a dead stop shoot twice and move 6 meters to the left into full cover behind a building. Then, move six meters to the right out of cover, put a bullet into an enemy and draw a sniper rifle. Then, move 6 meters forward around a corner, scope in, and shoot an enemy down the street. Think about that for a second, and think about the fact that any one of the shoot-move actions could have been shoot-don't move actions to get rid of the two dice movement penalty, and then could automatically be followed by another shoot-move action at no penalty.
The system you suggest for determining action order is neat and looks like a clean and simple solution to that part of my problem (although I like the whole "playing with cards" aspect of the deadlands system). The only issue I see with the system is the possibility of rolling duplicate numbers. I guess you could just go twice in a row if that happened.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Sounds a bit clunky |
Agreed. I'm against using additional "props" -- you've already got handfuls of dice on the table and your system is asking for a deck of cards, too.
Not that I mind card-based combat systems (like the Marvel card game or the Cosmic Encounter board game). I don't like using both simultaneously due to table clutter and the "keep it simple" design theory.
I too preferred the SR2 initiative system in which if a dude was fast enough, he could mow down the whole room before anyone else reacted. That's "realistic."
.... But it ain't fun if you're the slow guy.
Obviously mages and other non-wired folk were at a huge disadvantage and the SR3 & 4 systems gives them a break. They're still not likely to go first, but at least the speedsters get only one action before them. After that it's just like SR2 in that the fast folk can blitz with their multiple consecutive actions.
From what I remember of the way it happens in 7ths Sea, everyone on the same order goes with the 'lhigest' initiative (total of all your initiative dice) going first. Example: (7th sea uses d10s) guy one has init (1, 4, 6) and guy two has init (6, 6). As guy 2 has the higher total (12) he goes first, then init looks like guy 1 (1, 4, 6) guy 2 (6). As guy1 now has the higher total, he goes next. Then guy 2 goes again as his is the only remaining action at 6.
As for the movement system, I'm a bit worried about how running and sprinting take actions to stop and start. While nice in theory, the fact that you only get one action to stop means that some oddities can occur. For example, you are sprinting. Your action rolls around and you use it to keep sprinting. However something happens suddenly (say, your buddy yells, "stop!"), the minimum distance it takes you to stop is 24 meters (assming a human). If you haven't spend your action for the turn yet, you can slow to a run and then to a walk and only go 8 meters. Part of the problem is with the 'grainyness' of the action system. This system does seem better than the stock SR4 movement system, I think it could use a bit more work. One possibility is to lower the number of successes on an init test required to get an extra action.
Some numbers:
normal joe (init 6)
Normal max human (init 12)
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?)
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?)
Needing 2 successes:
normal joe (init 6) 2 passes
Normal max human (init 12) 3 passes
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?) 4-5 passes
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?) 7 passes
Needing 3 successes:
normal joe (init 6) 1.67 passes
Normal max human (init 12) 2.33 passes
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?) 4-4.33 passes
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?) 6 passes
As for how long 'far' it takes you to stop sprinting, I'm not sure. Anyone want to try an experiment?
As for the movement system, I'm a bit worried about how running and sprinting take actions to stop and start. While nice in theory, the fact that you only get one action to stop means that some oddities can occur. For example, you are sprinting. Your action rolls around and you use it to keep sprinting. However something happens suddenly (say, your buddy yells, "stop!"), the minimum distance it takes you to stop is 24 meters (assming a human). If you haven't spend your action for the turn yet, you can slow to a run and then to a walk and only go 8 meters. Part of the problem is with the 'grainyness' of the action system. This system does seem better than the stock SR4 movement system, I think it could use a bit more work. One possibility is to lower the number of successes on an init test required to get an extra action.
Some numbers:
normal joe (init 6)
Normal max human (init 12)
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?)
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?)
Needing 2 successes:
normal joe (init 6) 2 passes
Normal max human (init 12) 3 passes
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?) 4-5 passes
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?) 7 passes
Needing 3 successes:
normal joe (init 6) 1.67 passes
Normal max human (init 12) 2.33 passes
Combat runner (+2 passes) (init 9-13?) 4-4.33 passes
Absolute max (+3 passes) (init 19?) 6 passes
As for how long 'far' it takes you to stop sprinting, I'm not sure. Anyone want to try an experiment?
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Agreed. I'm against using additional "props" -- you've already got handfuls of dice on the table and your system is asking for a deck of cards, too. |
After playing Deadlands, I'm a big fan of using cards (and poker chips, and colored paper clips). Cards for initiative make it way easier to track who's going next - it's like having everyone's initiative score get written down, by pass, automatically.
The other thing you get from the cards is players having more tactical control of their "resources", sort of like combat pool. You can spend cards to dodge, and held actions are more intuitive (and functional).
There's always the choice between a "heavy" game system (where the game system defines the flow of game) and a "light" game system (where everything is ad-hock), and I prefer a good heavy system when combat is an important game element.
| QUOTE (Chandon) |
| There's always the choice between a "heavy" game system (where the game system defines the flow of game) and a "light" game system (where everything is ad-hock), and I prefer a good heavy system when combat is an important game element. |
Just to understand, you want to encourage the below?
| QUOTE |
| - Second, my players are giant twinks when it comes to taking actions in an RPG. They play like it's chess or D&D-on-a-battlemat or something. (so... If I shoot then move I can get no penalty for moving and end up in full cover, right?) |
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| However something happens suddenly (say, your buddy yells, "stop!"), the minimum distance it takes you to stop is 24 meters (assming a human). |
You can always slow to a walk before you move any more, so you'd take 8 meters to stop if you only have one initiative pass. It is a little odd that that number varies with reflex enhancments, and 8 meters is pretty large...
Complex action to stop sprinting in two meters?
Free action to stop sprinting in two meters and end up prone?
Declare a "minimum walk" of two meters and a "minimum run" of walking speed + 1 meter?
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| One possibility is to lower the number of successes on an init test required to get an extra action. |
This might be a good idea anyway. There needs to be a careful balance between average actions and maximum actions. I'd like almost everyone to normally get two cards... 2 successes per extra card would let the init 6 guy get that. On the other hand, that lets the init 12 guy get a potential 6 extra cards. The other possibility would be to start with two cards and set a threshold on the test for more cards. I'll need to think about it.
Running should be a simple action not a free one and Sprinting should be a complex action otherwise you will get the situation of a fully maxed Troll running at over 60 Km/h!! (Micheal Johnson - fastest man currently - 37.2Km/h)
Troll max Str 15 + Running Skill 7 + Synthacardium 2 + Enhanced Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 = 26 dice = 8 hits average = +16 m = 51 m/turn = 61.2 Km/h!!
Now someone else can do the math but 350 odd kilos (a max strength Troll must be pretty much near as heavy as he could get!) running into you at 60+ Km/h would not be a good experience!
Troll max Str 15 + Running Skill 7 + Synthacardium 2 + Enhanced Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 = 26 dice = 8 hits average = +16 m = 51 m/turn = 61.2 Km/h!!
Now someone else can do the math but 350 odd kilos (a max strength Troll must be pretty much near as heavy as he could get!) running into you at 60+ Km/h would not be a good experience!
and if the unheard of happens and that Troll actually rolls all hits! he would then be moving at 104.4 Km/h!
as it is a human also maxed out in the same way will do on average 44.4 Km/h (+20% better than Micheal Johnson) and 54 Km/h if you roll all hits.
Now whilst these aren't overly high when you consider this is representing the fastest man and science can get a metahuman to move it is a little bit over the top when you consider that same Troll can fire a long-burst from an assault rifle whilst doing that to soften you up for when he slams into you! If you are sprinting your box off you should not be able to do anything else except a free action.
as it is a human also maxed out in the same way will do on average 44.4 Km/h (+20% better than Micheal Johnson) and 54 Km/h if you roll all hits.
Now whilst these aren't overly high when you consider this is representing the fastest man and science can get a metahuman to move it is a little bit over the top when you consider that same Troll can fire a long-burst from an assault rifle whilst doing that to soften you up for when he slams into you! If you are sprinting your box off you should not be able to do anything else except a free action.
| QUOTE (evil1i) |
| Running should be a simple action not a free one and Sprinting should be a complex action. |
That's exactly how it works my rules.
There is a potential problem with getting extra movement from extra cards, and it will be worse if it's changed to two hits per card from four.
The edge case is a troll with 12 dice on initiative (but only one init pass) and 26 dice on running:
Average 4 hits / 8 hits: One extra action and +8 meters to base movement rate. So base speed is increased by 80% to 45 meters in 3 seconds.
Max 12 hits / 26 hits: Three extra action cards and +12 meters to base movement. This doubles the amount of movment due to actions, and increases the base speed by 260% = 180 meters in 3 seconds - about 134 mph. This would be fine if it weren't doubled.
The traditional fix would be to re-calculate movement per card each round depending on how many cards people get, and that's some thing I want to avoid like the plague. This problem only comes up when people spend an entire round sprinting. A simple solution would be a hard movmement limit of something like 75 meters in a combat round - which should only be hit by heavily min-maxed characters who roll exceptionally well anyway.
Just change the initiative pass order from
1234
to
3142
1234
to
3142
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Just change the initiative pass order from 1234 to 3142 |
That's a really neat idea, and it actually fixes the Vampire-esque "everyone goes and then the fast people go 15 times" thing really well. Personally, I may use it in the future if I need to run an "almost RAW" game, but I like the feel of cards myself.
A friend of mine has started a new initiative system for our games to combat the "everyone goes and then the fast people go 15 times". Basically it is an initiative matrix. I've done up a quick mockup and you can find it here
I have put 5 people and their initiative results on the diagram.
Ace - 1 pass Initiative 9
Bud - 2 passes Initiative 12
Creep - 2 passes Initiative 8
Dude - 3 passes Initiative 11
Evil1i - 4 passes Initiative 16
Then placed their names and Initiative in the corresponding boxes on the matrix. It means that the order of action goes as follows:
Int pass 4 people get 1st action in order of initiative. (Evil1i)
then
Int pass 3 people get 1st action in order of initiative. (Dude)
then
Int pass 4 and Int pass 2 people get their 2nd and 1st actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Evil1i, Bud then Creep)
then
Int pass 3 and Int pass 1 people get their 2nd and 1st actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Dude then Ace)
then
Int pass 4 people and Int pass 2 get their 3rd and 2nd actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Evil1i, Bud then Creep)
then
Int pass 3 people get their 3rd action in order of initiative. (Dude)
then
Int pass 4 people get their 4th action in order of initiative. (Evil1i)
this system represents everyone getting their actions roughly where they would in a 3 sec turn. Whilst it sounds complicated and cumbersome, when you use the matrix (we have ours laminated and use whiteboard markers) it actually runs as quick as regular initiative.
I have put 5 people and their initiative results on the diagram.
Ace - 1 pass Initiative 9
Bud - 2 passes Initiative 12
Creep - 2 passes Initiative 8
Dude - 3 passes Initiative 11
Evil1i - 4 passes Initiative 16
Then placed their names and Initiative in the corresponding boxes on the matrix. It means that the order of action goes as follows:
Int pass 4 people get 1st action in order of initiative. (Evil1i)
then
Int pass 3 people get 1st action in order of initiative. (Dude)
then
Int pass 4 and Int pass 2 people get their 2nd and 1st actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Evil1i, Bud then Creep)
then
Int pass 3 and Int pass 1 people get their 2nd and 1st actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Dude then Ace)
then
Int pass 4 people and Int pass 2 get their 3rd and 2nd actions respectively, in order of initiative. (Evil1i, Bud then Creep)
then
Int pass 3 people get their 3rd action in order of initiative. (Dude)
then
Int pass 4 people get their 4th action in order of initiative. (Evil1i)
this system represents everyone getting their actions roughly where they would in a 3 sec turn. Whilst it sounds complicated and cumbersome, when you use the matrix (we have ours laminated and use whiteboard markers) it actually runs as quick as regular initiative.
evil1i: I don't catch the schema of the action order you set. Could you explain please?
Chandon:
Chandon:
| QUOTE |
| In three seconds: Starting from a dead stop shoot twice and move 6 meters to the left into full cover behind a building. Then, move six meters to the right out of cover, put a bullet into an enemy and draw a sniper rifle. Then, move 6 meters forward around a corner, scope in, and shoot an enemy down the street. Think about that for a second, and think about the fact that any one of the shoot-move actions could have been shoot-don't move actions to get rid of the two dice movement penalty, and then could automatically be followed by another shoot-move action at no penalty. |
I may have a wrong reading of the rules, but it seems to me that you can't move on such a distance by the rules already.
| QUOTE |
| In three seconds: Starting from a dead stop shoot twice and move 6 meters to the left into full cover behind a building. Then, move six meters to the right out of cover, put a bullet into an enemy and draw a sniper rifle. Then, move 6 meters forward around a corner, scope in, and shoot an enemy down the street. Think about that for a second, and think about the fact that any one of the shoot-move actions could have been shoot-don't move actions to get rid of the two dice movement penalty, and then could automatically be followed by another shoot-move action at no penalty. |
Hey I can do that in Americas army.. so whats the problem ?
But he would not be able to do that without the movement penalties since at pg 138 where the movement rules are you are spending a free action in the declarations phase to declare your character is running, and he is running the _whole_ action phase. The next action phase he either says he stops (takes up no action) or continues to run (free action) in the declarations phase.. .
| QUOTE (Nkari) |
| Hey I can do that in Americas army.. so whats the problem ? |
I don't know about that. I think I saw a Godlike bot do that in UT2004 once, but there's no wall dodge in America's Army.
| QUOTE (Namergon) |
| evil1i: I don't catch the schema of the action order you set. Could you explain please? |
Did you look at the image I gave the link to?
Basically the schema works on the theory that a person with 4 Initiative passes and a person with 1 Initiative pass are supposed to be doing all their actions in the same 3 second turn. So it seems stupid that every body gets their first action and then the faster people get subsequent actions. Whilst the current method does mean that a slower person initiative wise isn't instantly nerfed by a faster person as they were in SR2 it also doesn't make sense that they change the initiative system to have "Initiative passes" and an "Initiative Roll" yet still used them in the slightly nerfed SR3 Initiative system way.
This system I showed basically evenly distributes each person's passes throughout the turn and then at the points where each of these evenly distributed passes intersect the initiative roll is used to determine who goes first.
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