 Dodge Skill Is Worthless |
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 Oct 24 2005, 05:50 AM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
The goal then, would be for you to place your offending body parts right next to your opponent's. If he wants to bring a monowire cutting surface across your arm, it'll take his with it - meaning that he's going to have to bring his whip out towards your rear, which gives you more time to get in and land a few punches.
A man with a monowhip and some skill is going to be scary no matter what you do, but I can't see the argument that close combat training wouldn't be good to have in that situation. -Frank |
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Oct 24 2005, 06:06 AM
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#27
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, maybe get some ceramic forearm guards? just make sure to catch it at the far end so that it dont have enough length to slice of something important :)
or maybe get gloves with ceramic insets so that you can grab the wire... |
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Oct 24 2005, 06:21 AM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
If I am close enough to attack him with my fists then I am close enough to block his arm and not the whip. I think there would need to be other house rules for this, so if you are in unarmed melee range then the whip would be at a disadvantage also. It could be very complicated in the long run. :dead:
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Oct 24 2005, 06:36 AM
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#29
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thing is that blocking the arm and not the whip may not help you as the whip may well swing around and hit you in the back or similar. thats one of the things that makes a monowhip so dangerous. its basicly a very long, fexible sword.
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Oct 24 2005, 01:00 PM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 11-October 05 From: UK Member No.: 7,832 |
To me, Dodge seems an out-of-place skill compared to the rest of the combat skills, as does specifiying parry/block/dodge full defense options. We've got three hugely broad close combat skills, Blades, Clubs and Unarmed, that fold in all sorts of close combat ideas/approches/artforms. Included in most (all?) these martial art forms (from boxing to fencing to karate) is the idea of 'dodging' attacks as well as parrying/blocking attacks (same thing really), including many effective techniques form unarmed 'blocking' of armed attacks. And a close combat complex action is not supposed to represent a single blow, rather a serious of strikes, dodges, parrys and blocks taking about 3 seconds. Dodge in this light seems to be a very narrow combat skill. Does anyone know of any existing martial skill that teaches you just to dodge? I don't. I'd be more inclinded to make Defense a specialisation of any close combat skill (replacing parrying/blocking). A character defending in melee would get to roll their close combat skill in defense (with specialisation if applicable), which could involve dodging, parrying and blocking. For melee full defense, they roll 2x skill. For this gymnastics can also be used (maybe not doubled, to stop it being an overly powerful skill). They are just defending, not specifically dodging, parrying, or blocking. Some further thoughts:
This works for me in terms of melee combat (and its simple, which I tend to favour), but what about ranged? This would reduce Dodge to being Dodge Ranged Attack. Is there such thing as a bullet dodging skill? How do you safely train to dodge bullets? I'm dubious. For me full defense is about making your self as hard to hit as possible, by moving around erratically, etc. I think this would be a specialisation of gymnastics (and possibly running?), probably called Dodging. It similar to the skills you learn as kid when you play tig/tag/chase/bulldogs/whatever. I suspect some military training may incorporate some form of 'how get from A to B without getting hit' training. So for full defense, I'd probably allow the character to roll reaction + gymnastics (and maybe running) with specialisations, defaulting to agility. For existing chars with dodge skill, I'd just convert it to gymnastics. I think gymnastics is terrible name for a skill that involves jumping (which most of us can do), as it sets up idea of our characters looking like olympic gymnasts, rather than agile street gangers (or whatever :). I go for a relaxed interretation of the word gymnastics for many of my chars. Anyway, RIP Dodge, I for one won't miss you :) WavyDavy |
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Oct 24 2005, 01:16 PM
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#31
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
So, Dodge gets rolled into Gymnastics and called Tumbling? Acrobatics? Maneuvering? Mobility?
Contortion? :D |
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Oct 24 2005, 02:42 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
??? Sure, and most of us can pull a trigger to fire a weapon as well. :wobble: Which is why both skills can be used untrained.
You mean like the dictionary informal? Sure. But take a look at the specializations in the skill description, it includes "Breakfall". That doesn't really say to me "spandex clad Olympian prancing around a padded mat." :P So what would your choice of a single word to include all those things in that specialization list and description? |
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Oct 24 2005, 02:46 PM
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#33
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Could always use the climbing gloves to grab the whip.The Microwire tha tyou can use when wearing he gloves has the same damage code as the whip. Say to be that the gloves are effecting in dealing with the whip.
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Oct 24 2005, 03:03 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I've always disliked the idea that monowhips slice things in to little bits just by coming in contact with them. Yeah, they're really sharp, but they've got no mass. When I've imagined it used, I saw it as the 'whipper' swinging the whip so that it wrapped around the target (limb, or neck, or whatever). and then gave the whip a good yank to apply force to the edge in contact.
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Oct 24 2005, 03:23 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 11-October 05 From: UK Member No.: 7,832 |
How about Tactical Evasive Manuevering or Bullet Dodgin'? :) Or maybe just call the specialisation Dodging ;) |
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Oct 24 2005, 03:34 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 11-October 05 From: UK Member No.: 7,832 |
Fair point.. I just remember when converting my low level street ganger to SR4, who learned to run zig zag through Pullyapup Barrens, jump over fences and across gaps, and was good at it (SR3 Athletics 4), using the word Gymnastics to descibe it felt wierd, as he'd never been inside a Gym, or seen a horse. Of any kind :) (And I know I could just take the Athletics skill group, but dammit, the boy has never learned to swim! Or climb, for that matter) Also, having trained in Gymnastics myself, I see it as a regimented, strict dicsipline (at least where I went it was). Compared to say, free running, which is wild and crazy in comparision, but in SR4 terms, would be the same skill.
I dunno about names, maybe acrobatics <shrug> Dun't matter really, I'll probably stick to Gymnastics to save confusion - I know what I mean :) |
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Oct 24 2005, 03:50 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A lot of things are lumped together like that in SR4 skills. Weapons and vehicles are usually the ones you first notice. For example driving a motorcycle is the same skill as driving a car or piloting a hovercraft. *shrug* Of course your own background does colour your perspective a bit on this, which is normal. Personally i find the wierder part of the name is that dancing is included. *shrug* Athletics might not have been a bad name, except they used that even broader name bundle the skill in with Climbing, Swimming, and Running. |
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Oct 24 2005, 05:01 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
There are a few things with the new rules that I don't like (after finally getting the book and reading it). Dodge skill is on the top of my list. I love that in nWoD (yes blasphemy mentioning it) they got rid of the Dodge skill completely and the reasoning made absolute sense to me.
So if/when I finally get to do an SR4 game I will get rid of the Dodge skill and instead full defense will be Reaction + Intuition. End of story. No skills for dodging. |
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Oct 24 2005, 05:34 PM
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#39
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It's got a weight on the end, I always assumed the goal was to swing it around really fast such that the whip was taught and the weight arced past your opponent, carrying the cheese cutter through them. Like the death wheel that Kali used in Creatures of Light and Darkness. Different people would put noise makers or glowing lights in the weighted end to make it properly intimidating. All told, a monowhip user in combat should look like a diabolo dancer. No "whipping" involved. Just like chain fighting, it should be all about the spin. -Frank |
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Oct 24 2005, 06:13 PM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
You can also reel out just a foot of the monowhip, grab the weight, and use it to garrote someone. However, garroting someone usually involves surprise attacks from behind, and full defense doesn't come into play with those.
I'll agree with the earlier posts though. Despite being molecularly sharp, monowhips need some kind of force to do damage, and whip itself doesn't mass enough to get momentum, it's the force of the weight at the end. The scene from Johnny Mnemonic where the yak with the cyberthumb flips a loop of his monowhip through the door to slice the portion of the door with the knob and deadbolt out, while cool, wouldn't happen. |
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Oct 25 2005, 12:03 AM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,665 Joined: 26-April 03 From: Sweden Member No.: 4,516 |
except blocking a whip, or another similar weapon, in that manner will often cause the whip to snap towards you... This might not be a big deal with a bullwip, might hurt alot with a chain, and might be lethal with a monowhip. Regarding monowhip cutting power: the sharper something is, the less force will be needed to cut into the other material. The Johnny Mnemonic 'lopping off' of the lock is out, yes, but even slight movement should be enough to cut into you if you lay the monoline across an arm or so and pull. Compare paper cuts, or a razor blade drawn along the skin - you don't need much force or momentum at all'. (Of course, such slight motion won't inflict much of a cut, but the target's body moving may very well be all you need to aggravate that damage, once you've made first contact) |
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Oct 25 2005, 12:40 AM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 11-October 05 From: UK Member No.: 7,832 |
True, but they have more generic names. Pilot ground craft does what it says on the tin. Gymnastics is open to more specific interpretations, IMO
Ha! I specifically did gymnastics to improve my dancing! :D I have an physad character that is a proffesional ballet dancer by day, so I was glad that was included. In sr3, I had to have a whole sperate skill for dancing that was only used in performance cases. Know I get to specialise in dancing and have a useful skill as well. Bonus! :) |
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Oct 25 2005, 12:55 AM
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#43
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
As I mentioned in a thread on character conversion - Dodge should have remained an "everyman" combat action (based on a straight up Agility Attribute test or a function of Agility + Quickness) and not been turned into a unique skill.
The same should have held true for Perception (Intuition attribute test) |
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Oct 25 2005, 01:54 AM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You probably mean Reaction plus Agility? Quickness go bye-bye. Anyway Agility is already an extremely key attribute in combat. It doesn't really need any more uses. Reaction already is the everyman combat non-action action. In melee Reaction again is the everyman combat non-action action in addition to whatever their best available melee combat skill is (as in previous SR). They are also given the option to substitute Dodge skill in place of whatever melee skill if they want. Now we get to the defensive combat action. By spending a Complex Action the character can use the Dodge skill for any attacks coming from one of their actions until the next (if they choose on there turn) or in direct response to a single attack at the time that it is made. Basically it is a specific action that characters can choose whether or not to use, and so they associated a particular skill with it. Personally although i find the option to substitute Gymnastics very odd, i'm not sure why you'd see Dodge being a place to sink karma as a particularly bad thing. It's not like you have to have it. It's just good if you are the turtling sort, which you are likely to be if you have poor Reaction and find yourself being shot at and/or pummeled. Besides unless you stop making melee an opposed skill, which i suppose is possible but i'm not entirely sure desirable, characters that only want to be able to defend themselves in melee need to sink karma into something. Perception checks? *shrug* Where would the extra dice come from? The idea there was likely to spread definition of the character in play out from the attributes, to counter what happens when you use attributes directly as part of [nearly] every die roll. |
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Oct 25 2005, 03:08 AM
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#45
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
So, as I read it, Reaction can be used in a dodge situation, correct?
Now I have not as of yet digested all of the combat rules & options. so I still find myself falling back on what I know from previous releases. I still have difficulty with making actions like Dodge and Perception into a unique skill that has to be learned. I actually find it simpler to say "Make an intuition test" to notice a sound or something out the corner of your eye or "Make an Agility/Reaction test" to duck out of the way of that speeding car. There really is no 'learned' skill for this as it is more sharpness of mind and/or eye-body coordination which are primarily attribute driven. I could see positive qualities like "Perceptive" or "Agile" coming into play and adding the appropriate number of dice to the test. But these too are natural as opposed to learned abilities. Likewise, certain augmentations (Select Sound Filter, Enhanced Articulation, Cerebral Booster etc) would also have an impact. I agree that in some cases, like for example a football player, one may develop an extra edge at say dodging a tackle or a block. However, I see it as being more inferred by concentration of the athletics skill in the sport of football as opposed to a separate and distinct skill in and of it's own. |
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Oct 25 2005, 06:12 AM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Not only can it, it is always the base of the dice for avoiding a ranged or melee attack. BTW there are still a few Attribute only tests where add two Attributes to get your die pool. Composure (Will+Cha) which is used in a lot of situations like the old Willpower(6) tests for Totems drawbacks, Judge Intentions (Intution+Cha) to get a general read on someone's intentions, Lifting/Carrying (Body+Str) for very heavy loads, and Memory (Logic+Will) to recall details. I believe that avoiding addiction or deeper addiction is also a double Attribute only test but i forget offhand which ones. For Perception you just call for a Perception Check/Test like before. Instead of giving them a TN you just let them know how many dice to subtract for situational modifiers (or ask them for their base die pool if you like to roll it yourself). The one thing i don't like about Perception as a Skill is that if you don't have at least a rating of 1 you are suppose to get the Defaulting penalty of -1 die from your Intuition (i didn't notice there being an exception anywhere for Perception). That i'm not big on at all, and will likely ignore when it is my choice. Though ultimately there isn't much reason not to take a point or two in a skill you'll use a fair amount even with a high linked Attribute. Skill 1 is actually a good thing in SR now. With Dodge you don't really have to worry about that since you aren't going to use Full Defense unless you have a rating in the Skill (with no rating you'd spend a Complex Action for no benefit). In melee if you have no Unarmed Combat, no melee weapon in had [in which you are trained], and no Dodge skill....well you are already in quite the pickle. Let us hope you know how to convincingly plead "No más! No más!" ;) |
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Oct 25 2005, 09:02 AM
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#47
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Mental Addiction is Logic + Willpower, Physical Addiction is Body + Willpower. And of course, Drain Resistance is Willpower + Tradition's Key Attribute (Logic, Charisma, or Intuition). Finally, there's the good old fashion Initiative/Surprise test (Intuition + Reaction). Remember that the party Street Sam rolls like 14 dice on this test, and is thus quite likely to "surprise" people who are supposed to be ambushing him. Just like every previous edition ever.
Or your Charisma when you are perceiving social information, the linked attribute of perception is not always Intuition (SR4, page 121). But yeah, dodge does not have defaulting penalties, counterspelling does not have defaulting penalties, Perception shouldn't have defaulting penalties either. -Frank |
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Oct 25 2005, 11:23 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 268 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Brisbane, Australia Member No.: 78 |
Not in 4th Ed. To quote "Ambushing characters, however, are automatically not surprised by the characters they are ambushing—assuming they are aware of the movement and actions of their target(s)" |
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Oct 25 2005, 03:28 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 12-April 02 From: the shadows.... Member No.: 2,548 |
[Edit : Forget all that crap...]
I think for Full Defense vs. ranged attackes I will have Defenders roll Reaction + Reaction. Simple. "Dodging" vs. Melee attacks is the same Reaction + Reaction. Parrying and Blocking will remain the same (Reaction + Skill). Full Defense vs. melee will be Reaction + Reaction. Again, simple. |
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Oct 25 2005, 04:43 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Obviously if you can "dodge" bullets it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to also "block" a monowhip. It's just the skill.
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